Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[sw1ller]

So is there only one door on that middle car?? I know it’s only an artist impression but it looks like they’ve modelled it off something. Does that comply with the rule book regarding locked out doors etc?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So is there only one door on that middle car?? I know it’s only an artist impression but it looks like they’ve modelled it off something. Does that comply with the rule book regarding locked out doors etc?

The Anglia ones only have one door per side per coach. They have an additional escape window for compliance.

 

[sw1ller]

The Anglia ones only have one door per side per coach. They have an additional escape window for compliance.

Ah thanks. I’m rather limited on my stock knowledge. I honestly didn’t know about the Anglia stock.

 

[Domh245]

Surprised it wasn't CAF?

Indeed, perhaps the ITT wasn't as prescriptive as we'd all thought. Or alternatively, with my cynical hat on, these will be providing non-tram services around South Wales under the Metro Banner.

Apart from looking nothing like any LU surface stock?... nothing!

But in the context of this thread, you have proved my point. An artist's impression simply includes "rolling stock [which looks] similar to the designs of the day".

But with all of the recent rolling stock announcement, what we've seen floated has been more or less what has been rolled out, especially when each manufacturer has their own distinctive look, and computer renders are as trivial as they are. That is a Stadler unit through and through, with a custom door arrangement and Metro branding - We can say with relative certainty that there will be Stadler units in the franchise somewhere.

So is there only one door on that middle car?? I know it’s only an artist impression but it looks like they’ve modelled it off something. Does that comply with the rule book regarding locked out doors etc?

Evidently does comply because it's also what they're doing with the Greater Anglia Flirts - but do bear in mind that each vehicle is shorter than a conventional one.

Edit: Bletchleyite beat me to it!

 

[WatcherZero]

Dutch ones have one central door on the outer coach and two doors on the inner coach but the coaches themselves are much shorter.

Its possible that underfloor and transformer equipment intrudes into the passenger saloon on the central car (which is also the pantograph car) so less space for doors.

 

[gareth950]

Apart from looking nothing like any LU surface stock?... nothing!

But in the context of this thread, you have proved my point. An artist's impression simply includes "rolling stock [which looks] similar to the designs of the day".

Yes but you have to admit that picture has zero resemblance to a tram or tram-train, and unless a secret deal has been done with NR to electrify outside of the 'Core Valley lines' area, we know that the Valley lines north of Queen St will be the only lines to be electrified.
We know the Valley lines IS the Metro. That train, that looks remarkably like a Stadler Flirt, is in Metro branding, underneath the wires.

Maybe sense has been seen and we will have an HR electrified Valley lines network, with bi-modes that can run through Cardiff Central and onto the Vale of Glamorgan as now, with eventually a light rail tram system built to compliment it.

However, I won't believe anything until Monday because that one picture goes against everything we have been led to believe about TfW's plans for the 'Metro' so far

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A W&B bi-mode could use OHLE on:
- Severn Tunnel/Newport-Cardiff
- Crewe-Manchester
- Warrington-Manchester (Airport)
- Wolverhampton-Birmingham International
- Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham (the few that go that way)
- Runcorn-Liverpool (when the route starts)
- Severn Tunnel-Bristol (-Bath) if/when W&B gets paths
- any Valleys lines equipped with main line OHLE
Not an insignificant mileage.

But you surely wouldn't use a 100mph regional FLIRT on the Valleys lines?
It needs something more like Merseyrail's Stadler EMUs rather than GA's for that.
I also doubt they are going to give the entire new train + tram order to Stadler.

 

[transmanche]

I'm always a bit wary of artist's impressions since seeing this one for the proposed Picc-Vic tunnel in Manchester.

I think I'll wait until Monday before getting too excited...

[snip]

Yes but you have to admit that picture has zero resemblance to a tram or tram-train[...]

I'm guessing that light-hearted whimsey is not one of your strong points...

In case there's any doubt. In order to illustrate the fact that I'm waiting 'until Monday before getting too excited', I posted a picture of an earlier artist's impression that was clearly at odds with reality - where the artist obviously based it on the first subterranean train that sprang to mind. I did this in order to raise a wry smile on an otherwise grey and wet Saturday evening, not to start a heated argument...

 

[Bornin1980s]

Well, if I had a fleet of pacers to replace, the Stadler 755 would certainly be my first choice. I think DHMUs are obsolete.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, if I had a fleet of pacers to replace, the Stadler 755 would certainly be my first choice. I think DHMUs are obsolete.

They are indeed - Classes 172 and 195 are both DMMUs.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Them too.

 

[Rail Blues]

Bi mode Flirts!

That would be good news. Hope they order a shed load. I take it there may be more electrification on the way?

Flirts, Winks and Kisses - does the Stadler product range get progressively more explicit? If they put in a bid for HS2 I dread to think what they'd call it.

 

[superalbs]

Flirts, Winks and Kisses - does the Stadler product range get progressively more explicit? If they put in a bid for HS2 I dread to think what they'd call it.

Their higher speed offering calms it down a bit with a 'Smile'.

 

[mde]

It's a shame the 315's aren't being taken on like we were led to believe until recently

Taking on units that are older than the Pacers and offer little in terms of passenger experience improvement would go down like a brick. The 313-315 series, much as I love them, are at the end of their service life.

If new stock is genuinely coming, then I'm pleased it's Stadler - they seem genuinely interested in delivering a decent product at a keen price. This should be an interesting announcement!

 

[Rail Blues]

Their higher speed offering calms it down a bit with a 'Smile'.

Disappointingly tame.

 

[gareth950]

2:28 in to this video shows where they got the image from that they've mocked up for the 'Metro' train Skates tweeted.
It's actually there on the still at the start as well, the tree on the left is almost complete cut out and they've removed a carriage.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its likely that's just Stadlers stock empty section of track photo and they just plop their renders of concepts on top rather than the appearance of the train itself being altered.

 

[sefyllian]

A new tweet from Ken Skates mentions £750m of new rolling stock, and looks like high-floored trams extended to a new stop nearer the waterfront in Cardiff Bay?

https://mobile.twitter.com/wgcs_economy/status/1003229084678348800/photo/1

 

[Fuzzytop]

£750m is no small deal. Although for electrics, the SWR deal set them back £895m, and the Greater Anglia aventras in a similar region.

At that amount it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't end up in a complete fleet replacement, with the 158s and 175s also on their way out and nothing cascaded in.

 

[AlexNL]

Ken Skates is quite a tease, isn't he? The impressions he has posted so far look very interesting.

I'm looking forward to the final revealing of what's going to happen in the next franchise.

 

[WatcherZero]

They certainly look like trams with the door spacing, cant tell if they are high or low floor though as there are perspective elements in that render suggestive of both. On the right the platform doesn't look that far off the ground with no wheels visible and vehicle body barely above the tracks, but on the left it looks like the tracks sunk a fair bit below street level presumably allowing level platform access to the street.

Edit, driver wing mirror and side destination display too as well as being flat sided rather than tucked at the bottom to allow canting.

 

[superalbs]

£750m is no small deal. Although for electrics, the SWR deal set them back £895m, and the Greater Anglia aventras in a similar region.

At that amount it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't end up in a complete fleet replacement, with the 158s and 175s also on their way out and nothing cascaded in.

Well comparing to the GA Bombardier order (£1bn for 665 carriages, proportional to £750m is 500 carriages), that would be enough money to replace every ATW vehicle 2.5 times over.

 

[D365]

How's this going to tie in with 2020 then? Large scale derogations one would assume?

 

[NotATrainspott]

They certainly look like trams with the door spacing, cant tell if they are high or low floor though as there are perspective elements in that render suggestive of both. On the right the platform doesn't look that far off the ground with no wheels visible and vehicle body barely above the tracks, but on the left it looks like the tracks sunk a fair bit below street level presumably allowing level platform access to the street.

Edit, driver wing mirror and side destination display too as well as being flat sided rather than tucked at the bottom to allow canting.

Definitely high floor. You can see the platform level wrap around the buffer and then become the top of the wall on the left. That wall looks like 915mm more than it looks like ~300mm. The door and window layout of the vehicle also points to high floor since that single vehicle looks awfully long to sit on low-floor bogies. A 30m low-floor tram will have about five segments while a high-floor equivalent would have only two, or two with a short solid gangway section in between. Also, low-floor trams just put all of the electrical equipment above the cabin rather than below, and it doesn't look like there's much above the window line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Edit, driver wing mirror and side destination display too as well as being flat sided rather than tucked at the bottom to allow canting.

The bottom of the door nearest the viewer is tucked in. It reminds me particularly of the older EMUs used by SBB, to be honest. I think it's just what you'd call a "generic cheap job".

 

[WatcherZero]

Agree on the buffer wrap and the wall being high floor was certainly my impression. There isn't really any relationship in vehicle length between high and low floor bogies on tram networks though as its the minimum curve radius of the network that sets the maximum vehicle body section length, you can have body sections ranging from 5m to 15m on high or low floor systems and the perspective looking along the vehicle is too tight to see if there is any roof mounted equipment.

I don't think the sides are canted for cornering, door may be slightly tucked at bottom to minimise scraping on platform edges though which is usually something more associated with low floor trams than high floor.

e.g.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Hiawatha_Line-Government_Plaza.jpg

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the sides are canted for cornering

Not all UK stock is, though it's more common on recent stock not even all that does - the 350/450, 444 and 777 all have near straight sides other than the platform edge tuck-in and curve in at the top, as does all the Mk3-derived stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£750m is no small deal. Although for electrics, the SWR deal set them back £895m, and the Greater Anglia aventras in a similar region.

At that amount it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't end up in a complete fleet replacement, with the 158s and 175s also on their way out and nothing cascaded in.

I was going to say that. The going rate at the moment is about £2m per (conventional) vehicle, isn't it? 375 vehicles is a lot, and that does, given the small size of Wales's network, point to an East Anglia style total fleet replacement.

If they genuinely mean that, trams or not, rather than that £750m will be invested in the network as a whole, it *genuinely is* a massive transformation.

I am really quite looking forward to seeing this tomorrow. Such a deal would have benefits elsewhere, such as all 15x going to Northern, and the awful 175s in the bin.

 

[D365]

... and the awful 175s in the bin.

Surely, one would rather bin the Class 150s first?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely, one would rather bin the Class 150s first?

The 175s are unreliable rubbish (with nice interiors, though needing a bit of a tidy, but they are not reliable). 150s are getting old but are very reliable workhorses.

175s also aren't useful for the high loadings Northern get due to their door layout. They would be suitable for Northern Connect (and indeed have operated those services in the past), but there's already new stock on order for that.