Arriva Rail North DOO

[PR1Berske]

I've said many times on this thread variations on what has been said above: the RMT could have taken the fight in a very different way. Accept that DOO is coming but fight for the best terms and conditions under the new reality: that would been accepting that change is coming to the railways and shaping the role around the needs of both the guards and the passenger.

Instead the RMT went for a very 1980s retro touch of battering everything in sight - the company, the DfT, the system, the process, the ideology, everything together - and hoped that they'd always have the support of passengers who saw things as "Us verses them". When the Northern timetable fiasco virtually ground the network to a halt, the RMT continued to call strikes. That's not being on the side of passengers who are already suffering, it's adding further misery onto ordinary peoples lives.

I know that in the past on this thread, I have been reminded that the RMT is looking after the interests of its workers and not necessarily guards *and* passengers. I just wonder if, in the 21st century, it would do to sometimes see things in a wider context.

 

[northwichcat]

When the Northern timetable fiasco virtually ground the network to a halt, the RMT continued to call strikes. That's not being on the side of passengers who are already suffering, it's adding further misery onto ordinary peoples lives.

Agreed. I'd add to that the RMT knew the planners had completed the May 2018 timetable at the last minute and there were going to be teething problems, they also knew that calling strikes during the first week of the new timetable would put the Northern workers in the planning department under extreme pressure, never mind how it affected the passengers (or customers of Northern.) The RMT effectively stuck up two fingers at everyone who doesn't have a job working on board a train, including other railway workers.

 

[northwichcat]

Regardless if views on the merits of what the RMT are striking for, it amazes me that so many on here are questionning why they are striking. They are striking because it is the only weapon they believe they have at their disposal to keep their jobs ! I would ask whether posters on here wouldn't do the same, but given the large numbers of Christmas Party supporters among the turkey community I think I know what the answer would be.

Surely the turkeys would vote for change to Christmas dinner, while the RMT are against change to the role of the on board train staff. I'd like the offer of guaranteed full time work on the salary of a Northern guard until at least 2025, which is what the RMT don't think is good enough. Accepting that offer doesn't prevent guards choosing to leave in search of other work if they want to.

 

[pompeyfan]

To be honest I'm one of those people. I used to vote labour but not any more. The train strikes exemplify why I dont support Corbyn and the Momentum lot. Simply because they strike for strikes sake. There is no evidence that these strikes are working yet they carry on for dogmatic reasons. Everyone loses out of it and nobody gains. It seems they adopt Bob Crows mantra "If you fight you dont always win but if you dont fight you always lose." However in this case they are fighting and losing. Now people on here may think I am RMT bashing but I will reiterate. If I am wrong any you can give me an example of how this action will work please feel free. I am not so dogmatic if we kept the guard I wouldnt have problem with it. I just think this Corbynite attitude of everyone out even though its not working doesnt wash. If having the guard was an option to end this dispute I would be happy with it but as I have said previously this would result in the breaking of the Northern contract with the government.

It’s worth mentioning that the RMT believe they’ve won several previous debates recently and so are spurred on, in their eyes, the battle on Southern might have been lost, but the war against DOO is far from over, RMT managed to persuade FGW, Scotrail and Wales & Borders to keep the status quo, and from what I understand the tide may be turning on GA.

 

[Carlisle]

It’s worth mentioning that the RMT believe they’ve won several previous debates recently and so are spurred on, in their eyes, the battle on Southern might have been lost, but the war against DOO is far from over, RMT managed to persuade FGW, Scotrail and Wales & Borders to keep the status quo, and from what I understand the tide may be turning on GA.

Wales quite possibly, but I doubt many would claim the RMT conclusively won the arguments on Scotrail or GWR as the deals reached appeared mainly just a means of getting new stock into service without further disruption, given ASLEF at the time were flatly refusing to even negotiate on closing doors on any routes that weren’t DOO allready.

 

[Killingworth]

As a passenger I just want to get on my scheduled train, on time, find a seat, and get to my destination station at the time shown in the timetable, safely. At present on my line we're totally losing Northern's services for 3 days again this month. That's 10% cancelled in my book, although it won't show that when the cancellation statistics are published.

As a former trades union national committee member I can understand opposition to change, especially when it's imposed without, or limited, consultation.

I can see what the DfT are wanting to achieve as part of the franchise agreement. When travelling through London I see long trains with only a driver, and note the modern light rail and tram systems are mostly operated as driver only. I hear concerns expressed about safety with only a driver aboard, and share them. Thanks to the recent excellent rail safety record incidents have been few, so there hasn't been a high profile case I can recall where the lack of other train crew has resulted in serious and avoidable injuries - although passengers leaving stranded trains may be cited. Lack of accidents doesn't mean lack of danger, but how far do we need to go, and who decides?

Aa former manager I'd be in despair that my efforts to run the business were being thwarted both by the straight jacket of the franchise agreement and the intransigence of the RMT. It's getting like the Western Front of WW1 - total victory or nothing, for which both sides share responsibility. Both sides need to blink - or maybe it's 3 sides. We need an arbiter, someone who can persuade all to get their heads together. Meanwhile, evey day the trains are missing a few more passengers find other ways to make (or avoid) their journeys. Some won't come back. No wonder passenger numbers are fallling in some areas.

Manning on some of our trains can be generous. I suspect it was a result of training, but my lightly loaded 4 carriage Cross-Country train from Newcastle yesterday had 2 people on the refreshment trolley and there may have been 4 checking tickets and making (very cheerful) PA announcements. However, although I was offered a coffee as we left Newcastle, there was no sign of the trolley again until it got to my end of the train just as I got off 2 hours later at Sheffield.

 

[woodmally]

Agreed. I'd add to that the RMT knew the planners had completed the May 2018 timetable at the last minute and there were going to be teething problems, they also knew that calling strikes during the first week of the new timetable would put the Northern workers in the planning department under extreme pressure, never mind how it affected the passengers (or customers of Northern.) The RMT effectively stuck up two fingers at everyone who doesn't have a job working on board a train, including other railway workers.

And that is even more stupidity on behalf or RMT right there in a nutshell. Yes they are arguing for members interests but a tenant of their argument is passengers and "our safety". Upsetting the one group you are saying you are defending is not winning any battles. Also they say they are arguing for their members but is it really in their members best interests to lose money on a battle they have no hope of winning. Again someone a few threads above references recent victories but I would like to know which victory and how was these victories achieved. I cant see how they would be achieved with regard to an English Train Operating Company that has DOO as part of its franchise agreement with a Conservative anti trade union government.

 

[PHILIPE]

And that is even more stupidity on behalf or RMT right there in a nutshell. Yes they are arguing for members interests but a tenant of their argument is passengers and "our safety". Upsetting the one group you are saying you are defending is not winning any battles. Also they say they are arguing for their members but is it really in their members best interests to lose money on a battle they have no hope of winning. Again someone a few threads above references recent victories but I would like to know which victory and how was these victories achieved. I cant see how they would be achieved with regard to an English Train Operating Company that has DOO as part of its franchise agreement with a Conservative anti trade union government.

The longer the RMT hold out, the longer the DFT will just keep sitting back and laughing at them losing money on strike days

 

[B&I]

I had always assumed that you went on strike for a cause, not a lost cause.

What do you suggest instead ? Accept mass redundancy without a fight ?

 

[B&I]

Surely the turkeys would vote for change to Christmas dinner, while the RMT are against change to the role of the on board train staff. I'd like the offer of guaranteed full time work on the salary of a Northern guard until at least 2025, which is what the RMT don't think is good enough. Accepting that offer doesn't prevent guards choosing to leave in search of other work if they want to.

And after 2025 ?

 

[Astradyne]

Virtually no one us guaranteed a job after 2025 in any industry!!!!

 

[northwichcat]

And after 2025 ?

Seriously? :roll:

If you're aware of a risk to your employment after 2025 you then go on strike. However, a lack of a guarantee of employment after the next franchise takes over does not automatically mean anyone will be at risk of redundancy then. Is the RMT about to go bankrupt and wants to go out with a bang by calling needless strikes?

 

[northwichcat]

What do you suggest instead ? Accept mass redundancy without a fight ?

Where's your proof that there's any plans for mass redundancies? A lack of proof that jobs are safe post-2025 is not the same. Are you going to go on strike over having to wear orange jackets and purple skirts (whether you're male or female) when the next franchise takes over because you can't rule out that being the uniform until it's actually confirmed?

 

[Bromley boy]

Are you going to go on strike over having to wear orange jackets and purple skirts

If someone asked me to wear an orange jacket and a purple skirt I’d most certainly go on strike!

 

[Robertj21a]

What do you suggest instead ? Accept mass redundancy without a fight ?

Well, if you're asking me personally, I'd agree to the proposals.

There, problem solved.

Where have redundancies been confirmed ?

 

[pompeyfan]

In a shocking turn of events, a Government department produces a report that backs up the DfTs anti guard agenda;

https://www.rssb.co.uk/DCOContent/safety-of-driver-controlled-cperation-june-2018.pdf

 

[woodmally]

And after 2025 ?

As someone else said if you get evidence that you will lose your job after 2025 then go on strike when you have that proof. However I have read nowhere about job loses. So where is your evidence. It seems the RMT are the only Union that is arguing against an unfounded concern over job loses in 9 years time! Also I'd like to point out that the RMT have never publicly said the strikes are about jobs. They are apparently about "our safety."

 

[PR1Berske]

As someone else said if you get evidence that you will lose your job after 2025 then go on strike when you have that proof. However I have read nowhere about job loses. So where is your evidence. It seems the RMT are the only Union that is arguing against an unfounded concern over job loses in 9 years time! Also I'd like to point out that the RMT have never publicly said the strikes are about jobs. They are apparently about "our safety."

I work in the NHS, I'd love to have guaranteed employment for nine years!

 

[LowLevel]

In a shocking turn of events, a Government department produces a report that backs up the DfTs anti guard agenda;

https://www.rssb.co.uk/DCOContent/safety-of-driver-controlled-cperation-june-2018.pdf

How many DOO metro services operate using higher risk slam door trains versus IC services still widely operated by slam door HST and Loco hauled trains and is this considered in the weighting I wonder, as it certainly isn't mentioned in the report.

 

[47802]

I work in the NHS, I'd love to have guaranteed employment for nine years!

Well quite many people don't have guaranteed employment for a year never mind 2025.

 

[Moonshot]

Bearing in mind what has happened to ASLEF drivers who were taking part in what pretty much amounted to unofficial strike action with the refusal of working rest days, you would have to wonder what would have happened had the RMT adopted the same stance and instructed members not to work overtime.

 

[alastair]

In a shocking turn of events, a Government department produces a report that backs up the DfTs anti guard agenda;

https://www.rssb.co.uk/DCOContent/safety-of-driver-controlled-cperation-june-2018.pdf

You might not agree with it, but RSSB is not a "Government department" :



RSSB (the Rail Safety and Standards Board) was established in April 2003, in response to recommendations made by Lord Cullen in the report of the second part of the public inquiry into the Ladbroke Grove accident.

As an organisation it brings together members (infrastructure managers, train operators, rolling stock leasers and suppliers) from across the mainline railway to support shared decisions, products and services with the aim of driving out unnecessary cost, improving business and safety performance and developing long-term strategy.

It is a not-for-profit company owned by major industry stakeholders. The company is limited by guarantee and is governed by its members, a board and an advisory committee. It is independent of any single railway company and of their commercial interests.

 

[Robertj21a]

In a shocking turn of events, a Government department produces a report that backs up the DfTs anti guard agenda;

https://www.rssb.co.uk/DCOContent/safety-of-driver-controlled-cperation-june-2018.pdf

Truly shocking - an independent report that says all the wrong things.......

 

[pompeyfan]

Truly shocking - an independent report that says all the wrong things.......

I’m glad you’re as shocked as I am

 

[B&I]

Well quite many people don't have guaranteed employment for a year never mind 2025.

So why is the usual approach on here to pour scorn on people who are in danger of losing their job security, rather than criticising a political and economic environment which has made most people's jobs radically less secure ?

 

[B&I]

As someone else said if you get evidence that you will lose your job after 2025 then go on strike when you have that proof. However I have read nowhere about job loses. So where is your evidence. It seems the RMT are the only Union that is arguing against an unfounded concern over job loses in 9 years time! Also I'd like to point out that the RMT have never publicly said the strikes are about jobs. They are apparently about "our safety."

Where is the evidence that the jobs will exist after 2025 ? If the trains are allowed to run without guards, what guarantees do they have that OBSs or whatever the hell they're called will be retained in future ?

 

[B&I]

Well, if you're asking me personally, I'd agree to the proposals.

There, problem solved.

Where have redundancies been confirmed ?

So if you were a guard you would agree to changes which would open the way to your job being abolished ? What was I saying before about turkeys and Christmas ?

 

[Robertj21a]

So if you were a guard you would agree to changes which would open the way to your job being abolished ? What was I saying before about turkeys and Christmas ?

I've never had a job with more than 6 months security. I'm utterly staggered that anyone can possibly be moaning about not having a job after 2025 !. Which planet are rail staff on ?

You asked me what I would do, and I told you. Now you don't like it - absolutely classic !!

Has it ever occurred to you that most of the UK population are used to having to change jobs, train for new roles, possibly move house etc etc ?

You've got a job with fantastic security, a supposedly strong union that you all support - and yet you spend all your time complaining as if you're the most hard done employees on the planet.

There, was that a response more to your liking ?

 

[woodmally]

So if you were a guard you would agree to changes which would open the way to your job being abolished ? What was I saying before about turkeys and Christmas ?

Right firstly thank you for your honesty. Whilst the RMT are peddling the lie that it's all about our safety and jobs have been guaranteed at least you are honest about their intentions. However I need to point out how you are wrong about them abolishing the guard. They have said that it will be a new role and I believe them. Simply speaking because they are a private company that relies on ticket sales. Only a small number of stations have barriers so they need someone to check tickets and protect revenue. Hence why the guard minus operating the doors will remain. Even if you were right though, which is doubtful given the above, the point is the strikes arnt working. In short all you will succeed in doing is losing money and annoying passengers. Like I said I've seen no evidence in England and on the Northern network where this is not the case but if you have evidence please tell us. I'm open to being proven wrong and besides if you did have this evidence it may be something us customers could defend to get these strikes over and done with to the powers that be.

 

[LowLevel]

I've never had a job with more than 6 months security. I'm utterly staggered that anyone can possibly be moaning about not having a job after 2025 !. Which planet are rail staff on ?

You asked me what I would do, and I told you. Now you don't like it - absolutely classic !!

Has it ever occurred to you that most of the UK population are used to having to change jobs, train for new roles, possibly move house etc etc ?

You've got a job with fantastic security, a supposedly strong union that you all support - and yet you spend all your time complaining as if you're the most hard done employees on the planet.

There, was that a response more to your liking ?

You're on an internet forum. Take a chill pill. I've had to remind myself of this multiple times.

I did what everyone suggested - I hated my old job(s) so I moved into a slower paced industry famed for its job security and still retaining a career you could remain in for life if you work hard and keep your nose clean.

If you really think that the answer to that is to get with the programme and surrender then you're entitled to your opinion. For me, I'd happily continue trundling up and down trains looking after my passengers until the day I retire or die depending on what fortune holds for me.

I feel that's a worthwhile role and as long as the government is sneaking clauses into contracts about manning of trains while insisting manning of trains is a matter for the train operators then I approve of kicking a hole many times bigger than anticipated in their budget and hopefully giving them a few sleepless nights.

You may not agree with me and that's fine. We are all different people. I don't want anything much from life. I certainly don't have ambitions. Some people like change. Some people crave power, become politicians and interfere with people's lives.

I chose to stop being in a position where I wielded direct authority over other people's existence (by the age of 19 I was adjudicating social security claims) and settle into a quiet life as a train guard where I am paid a decent wage for wandering about reacting to problems and the odd bit of proactivity and positivity.