Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[B&I]

It does. Both the services that caused the main trouble at Manchester were Liverpool services. However a number also had to cross over two sets of lines which the curve has eliminated and potentially opened up more services to/from the region. Such as the ATW Airport services which call at Earlestown and NLW which now have more ability to be pathed because South Manchester services can be moved off the slows at Picc. You'd be very unhappy if they'd just terminated the services at Manchester instead.

Of course I'd be very unhappy, and so would a substantial proportion of the nearly 2 million people who live in and around Liverpool, but your comments rather underline the attitude towards the area among many on here - Liverpool should count itself lucky that it has services at all. But in any event, I still don't understand your argument that the Ordsall Chord made any difference to Liverpool being re-routed via Victoria.

 

[B&I]

I know the whinging scouser argument is often used unfairly but this thread does show plenty of people will whinge about lack of investment outside London and then complain about temorary disruption caused by significant infrastructure upgrades. The Lime Street upgrade is similar to the Waterloo upgrade that has also been very disruptive. Moving multiple platforms, points and signals will always be a tricky and slow proccess. TPE can't opperate into Lime Street because there are too few platforms available for local and long distance services so the decision was made to run local stopping services and make long distance passengers change onto Merseyrail at South Parkway. I don't know the platform lengths but I would be extremely surprised if all or even most are 160m+. At a guess id say 2 x 323s would be possible but thats only a guess as a passenger on the route and Northern is in no position to do the extra driver training required.

I don't expect things to be completed overnight with a snap of someone's fingers, but you really have got to question why so many people go into the station and report little or nothing happening. There seems to be a total lack of urgency, despite the disruption being caused, but as I have said this is not unique to this project or to Liverpool.

As for the replacement services, I have real difficulty believing that 2 services per hour is the most that 2 platforms at Lime Street can manage. If that is the case, why can't TPE at least reach Huyton, when Northern can turn a class 319 there, or Lea Green or Newton le Willows, where TPE call in regular service ? There's a strong sense of nulle posteriore about the whole thing

 

[geoffk]

As for the replacement services, I have real difficulty believing that 2 services per hour is the most that 2 platforms at Lime Street can manage. If that is the case, why can't TPE at least reach Huyton, when Northern can turn a class 319 there, or Lea Green or Newton le Willows, where TPE call in regular service? There's a strong sense of nulle posteriore about the whole thing

And that would avoid having TPE units cluttering up the platforms at Victoria!

 

[Ianigsy]

Two track machines in use the station area this afternoon and groups of workers on the tracks almost as far out as Edge Hill.

Unfortunately TPE have been the poor relations in all this. I travelled between Leeds and Birkenhead and return this weekend - an hour late arriving on the Friday because my TPE missed the connection at Victoria by 90 seconds, and a 50 minute connection in the opposite direction compounded by having to stand from Manchester to Leeds due to TPE apparently giving up on seat reservations today.

 

[The_Engineer]

Track tamping and lining a order of the day...…..

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1008362089264623617

 

[edwin_m]

But the Ordsall Chord has nothing whatsoever to do with Liverpool services. They could have been (and were) diverted via Victoria without the chord being built. The Chord is all to do with the Manchester Airport tail wagging the Entire Railway System of the North of England dog

Of course I'd be very unhappy, and so would a substabtial proportion of the nearly 2 million people who live in and around Liverpool, but your comments rather underline the attitude towards the area among many on here - Liverpool should count itself lucky that it has services at all. But in any event, I still don't understand your argument that the Ordsall Chord made any difference to Liverpool being re-routed via Victoria.

Yes the Liverpool services could be run via Victoria without the chord, and one of them was. But by having the four fast trains per hour towards Leeds all departing from Victoria it effectively becomes a turn up and go service for anyone in Manchester going towards Leeds. This wouldn't be so if they alternated termini and people had to work out which statiion to head for, just miss one with not quite enough time to get over to the other station, etc.

 

[LDECRexile]

While the Liverpool-Manchester electrification took place a significant number of photos of progress were submitted and compiled into what became known as the Combined Volume, here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

Photos of Lime Street have continued to come in, latterly in the context of the station remodelling. I have added the photos from the Liv-Man electrification to photos recently received about the remodelling to create a Liverpool Lime Street album.

The most recent contributions have been from Phil Wieland, whose superb NW-Sparks is well worth a look if you don't already know it.

The new album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157697566352234

Other contributions invited, no money ever changes hands in either direction.

 

[childwallblues]

Icannot understand why TPE could not run as far as Huyton?

 

[driver_m]

Of course I'd be very unhappy, and so would a substabtial proportion of the nearly 2 million people who live in and around Liverpool, but your comments rather underline the attitude towards the area among many on here - Liverpool should count itself lucky that it has services at all. But in any event, I still don't understand your argument that the Ordsall Chord made any difference to Liverpool being re-routed via Victoria.

You realise that I do live in the region? Let's put it this way, I have some knowledge of how train planning works and is implemented. I understand that Liverpool railways are intrinsically linked to the railways of Manchester. Edinburgh and Glasgow are similarly connected and don't now have the artificial barriers of Kirkby, Hunts Cross and the missing link via Lymm that still handicap our railways.
My argument of the Ordsall chord is that it freed up paths out of Manchester that can be used to access Liverpool via 13/14, it needed a wholesale transfer of TPE services to access Victoria to justify the infrastructure spend on it, of which the Liverpool services also being rerouted were crucial. However the job has only been one third done. Salford Central platforms need doing and 15/16 platforms need building at Picc to unlock the full potential.
I have to say, of all the posters on here who come from Liverpool, I hate to say it, but you are coming across as a paranoid stereotype who thinks there's a massive conspiracy against Liverpool, whereas the others don't. I say it as someone who lives inbetween the two great cities up here and you need to work together. The divides just play into the politicians natural urge to favour London over the North.

 

[Chester1]

Of course I'd be very unhappy, and so would a substabtial proportion of the nearly 2 million people who live in and around Liverpool, but your comments rather underline the attitude towards the area among many on here - Liverpool should count itself lucky that it has services at all. But in any event, I still don't understand your argument that the Ordsall Chord made any difference to Liverpool being re-routed via Victoria.

2 million? The population of Merseyside is 1.4 million and Southport has its own service to Manchester anyway. Where are you adding to get to anything close to 2 million? For journeys or ending at Merseyrail stations it is either no different or requires one extra change. South Parkway is a useful back for these sorts of situations. I am prepared to give the experts benefit of the doubt over the opinion of enthusiasts looking around. It must be easy to miss small but crucial work.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Photos of Lime Street have continued to come in, latterly in the context of the station remodelling. I have added the photos from the Liv-Man electrification to photos recently received about the remodelling to create a Liverpool Lime Street album.

The new album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157697566352234. .

Great idea Dave - thanks

 

[B&I]

2 million? The population of Merseyside is 1.4 million and Southport has its own service to Manchester anyway. Where are you adding to get to anything close to 2 million? For journeys or ending at Merseyrail stations it is either no different or requires one extra change. South Parkway is a useful back for these sorts of situations. I am prepared to give the experts benefit of the doubt over the opinion of enthusiasts looking around. It must be easy to miss small but crucial work.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that your apparent ignorance about the replacement of Merseyside for all official purposes is ignorance rather than mischief-making.

But as your response to a thread about rail provision to Liverpool is an attempt to play down the size of the urban area's population, and as the only destination outside 'Merseyside' which you mention in your response is Manchester, I think your stance in this discussion is becoming easier to understand.

 

[B&I]

You realise that I do live in the region? Let's put it this way, I have some knowledge of how train planning works and is implemented. I understand that Liverpool railways are intrinsically linked to the railways of Manchester. Edinburgh and Glasgow are similarly connected and don't now have the artificial barriers of Kirkby, Hunts Cross and the missing link via Lymm that still handicap our railways.
My argument of the Ordsall chord is that it freed up paths out of Manchester that can be used to access Liverpool via 13/14, it needed a wholesale transfer of TPE services to access Victoria to justify the infrastructure spend on it, of which the Liverpool services also being rerouted were crucial. However the job has only been one third done. Salford Central platforms need doing and 15/16 platforms need building at Picc to unlock the full potential.
I have to say, of all the posters on here who come from Liverpool, I hate to say it, but you are coming across as a paranoid stereotype who thinks there's a massive conspiracy against Liverpool, whereas the others don't. I say it as someone who lives inbetween the two great cities up here and you need to work together. The divides just play into the politicians natural urge to favour London over the North.

The 'paranoid stereotype'. Good one. I'm not a Scouser, I wasn't even born in England, I just happen to live in Liverpool. Still, don't let that get in the way of seeking to undermine my arguments using traditional anti-Liverpool stereotypes. If I belonged to an ethnic minority group which was stereotyped for being argumentative, would you feel justified in addressing me in the same way ?

As I have pointed out - several times - I accept that the apparent low levels of activity at Lime Street are not unique to this project, to Liverpool, or even to the railways. But, because someone who lives in Liverpool is pointing out something which applies (in this case) to Liverpool, that must be the rantings of a paranoid Scouser.

Where Liverpool very clearly is being let down is with the atrocious substitute service Northern and (in particular) TPE (are) not providing to Lime Street. Someone else started a thread about that last week. You might think it legitimate to point out on a railway forum that a major city which is supposed to have 20 cars' worth of train over 1 of its 2 routes to the nearest large city between 7 and 9 am was provided with one tenth that number, but that thread was shut down within hours. No-one has yet provided me with even a faint stab at a good reason why Northern and TPE are providing onky a fraction if the service to Lime Street which the available infrastructure would permit.

I have to say that I find your argument about how the Ordsall Chord will benefit Liverpool to ve less than convincing. It has not permitted more trains to negotiate platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly - it has led to more trains beung stuffed through those platforms, with disastrous results for the railway network across the north. There are now fewer services running through those platforms to Liverpool than there were before the timetable change. There is little prospect of platfirms 15 and 16 being built without a change of government, and even if they were built they'd be unlikely to add much capacity towards Liverpool because of the constraints at Castlefield, Ardwick and Stockport. No space is freed up for Liverpool services at Victoria because of additional trains travelling through it to reach the Ordsall Chord. Am I missing something ?

 

[B&I]

Yes the Liverpool services could be run via Victoria without the chord, and one of them was. But by having the four fast trains per hour towards Leeds all departing from Victoria it effectively becomes a turn up and go service for anyone in Manchester going towards Leeds. This wouldn't be so if they alternated termini and people had to work out which statiion to head for, just miss one with not quite enough time to get over to the other station, etc.

When explained in those terms, the movement of services to Victoria seems entirely sensible. Though where they go after that seems to me a separate issue, so the Chord still seems to be necessary only if Manchester Airport is considered an essential destination.

I am grateful to you for explaining this in terms of the actual purpose of the scheme, rather than trying to come off with a lot of flannel about how the Ordsall Chord was somehow designed to benefit Liverpool.

 

[notlob.divad]

But by having the four fast trains per hour towards Leeds all departing from Victoria it effectively becomes a turn up and go service for anyone in Manchester going towards Leeds. This wouldn't be so if they alternated termini and people had to work out which statiion to head for, just miss one with not quite enough time to get over to the other station, etc.

And that could still have been done without having to build the Ordsall Chord.

The original point made was that the Ordsall Chord has been detrimental to Liverpool services. Every 'improvement' to Liverpool bound services that has been made, could have been done without building the Chord. Even the future new services that are being promised, are not reliant on this new piece of track. The building of the Chord has caused extra conflicting moves at 2 new junctions, both on routes leaving Manchester towards Liverpool, thus causing more potential for delays and unreliability. The squeezing of an extra cross pennine service into the timetable that does use the new track in order to justify its existence is causing increased unreliability and delays to Liverpool's existing services. Therefore the solid conclusion is that the Construction of the Ordsall Chord has been to the detriment of rail services to Liverpool. B&I is absolutely correct in his assessment of this matter.

My argument of the Ordsall chord is that it freed up paths out of Manchester that can be used to access Liverpool via 13/14

That is blatantly untrue. The Ordsall Chord uses paths that otherwise could have been used to increase service provision in the Western direction, including Liverpool amongst other destinations. The paths that have been 'freed up' by the Ordsall Chord are those out of Piccadilly's main shed towards stockport, which are of no use whatsoever to those services serving Liverpool.

it needed a wholesale transfer of TPE services to access Victoria to justify the infrastructure spend on it, of which the Liverpool services also being rerouted were crucial.

But as has been established over and over, routing Liverpool services via Victoria could have been done without constructing the chord. And running 4 trains/ hour over the pennines and into Victoria, could also have been done without construction of the chord. B&I is absolutely right, in that the only purpose of the new line is to serve Manchester Airport, because ever other 'benefit' could have easily been achieved without the need for the new bits of track. Equally it is services predominantly in the directions of Liverpool, Warrington and Chester that have been compromised by the construction of the new section of railway.

 

[driver_m]

The 'paranoid stereotype'. Good one. I'm not a Scouser, I wasn't even born in England, I just happen to live in Liverpool. Still, don't let that get in the way of seeking to undermine my arguments using traditional anti-Liverpool stereotypes.

As I have pointed out - several times - I accept that the apparent low levels of activity at Lime Street are not unique to this project, to Liverpool, or even to the railways. But, because someone who lives in Liverpool is pointing out something which applies (in this case) to Liverpool, that must be the rantings of a paranoid Scouser.

Where Liverpool very clearly is being let down is with the atrocious substitute service Northern and (in particular) TPE (are) not providing to Lime Street. Someone else started a thread about that last week. You might think it legitimate to point out on a railway forum that a major city which is supposed to have 20 cars' worth of train over 1 of its 2 routes to the nearest large city between 7 and 9 am was provided with one tenth that number, but that thread was shut down within hours. No-one has yet provided me with even a faint stab at a good reason why Northern and TPE are providing onky a fraction if the service to Lime Street which the available infrastructure would permit.

I have to say that I find your argument about how the Ordsall Chord will benefit Liverpool to ve less than convincing. It has not permitted more trains to negotiate platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly - it has led to more trains beung stuffed through those platforms, with disastrous results for the railway network across the north. There are now fewer services running through those platforms to Liverpool than there were before the timetable change. There is little prospect of platfirms 15 and 16 being built without a change of government, and even if they were built they'd be unlikely to add much capacity towards Liverpool because of the constraints at Castlefield, Ardwick and Stockport. No space is freed up for Liverpool services at Victoria because of additional trains travelling through it to reach the Ordsall Chord. Am I missing something ?

Yeah, you are missing something. A stable company to operate those trains. You've not even gave it chance to bed in yet. I've also worked out of Picc and know very well how it operates. Just crossing fast -slow uses up paths, Slade Lane is a nightmare still, the double red block system around Manchester is a capacity eater. They all impact on what can and can't be run out of Lime St.

In reply to you personally, I've no idea if you were born there, got the accent, whatever, it's all irrelevant, you live there, which is all that matters in the context of this thread, I work there, I see what I find, and it needs XC links restoring, but it's got a fairly decent service coming, further improvements coming, and is having some well deserved money spent on it. Compare it to Hull or Bradford, or even Stoke as other comparable sized populations and Liverpool is doing alright. However none do anything like as well as London, which what we should be looking at. Not our neighbours. If you're still not convinced then I can live with that.

 

[notlob.divad]

Icannot understand why TPE could not run as far as Huyton?

It is a head scratcher. If they did turn back at Huyton, it would give 3 times the number of connecting services into Lime Street that passengers currently get as you would also be able to connect into the trains coming from Wigan. The only thing I can point to is a lack of staff facilities at Huyton and the fact it isn't a station they would normally serve. However this doesn't seem to have been an issue for Virgin when it comes to South Parkway.

The cynic in me stands by my original comment above, that they are making more money by not having to sort out staff facilities at Huyton combined with the extra compensation from Network Rail.

 

[driver_m]

Ok, let's put it this way. Say an open access operator wants to run a Liverpool-Sheffield service on top of the existing service. As it was, there was no chance. Too many TPE services to from Ardwick -Airport required the paths for getting in and out of Picc. At least now because those trains now stay slow, the Buxtons and the mid Cheshire's, can now stay off the slows and leave via Eastern/Fast lines. Therefore in theory meaning a path could be used for this hypothetical service. However the issue then becomes the island at 13/14 which an extra platform naturally helps. (15/16). The main problem then left to solve is getting across Slade Lane. Someone like the planner would know if this is doable or whether it's been used up, but I'm trying to show you how it can benefit Liverpool

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ok, let's put it this way. Say an open access operator wants to run a Liverpool-Sheffield service on top of the existing service. As it was, there was no chance. Too many TPE services to from Ardwick -Airport required the paths for getting in and out of Picc. At least now because those trains now stay slow, the Buxtons and the mid Cheshire's, can now stay off the slows and leave via Eastern/Fast lines. Therefore in theory meaning a path could be used for this hypothetical service. However the issue then becomes the island at 13/14 which an extra platform naturally helps. (15/16). The main problem then left to solve is getting across Slade Lane. Someone like the planner would know if this is doable or whether it's been used up, but I'm trying to show you how it can benefit Liverpool

Lots of design and construction money went into rejigging the 4 lines from Adswood through Stockport to Slade Lane, to improve the southern approaches to Piccadilly.
Then at a late stage they gave up and put everything back as it was, keeping the "Stockport 5" absolute block signal boxes.
That failure (of "digital signalling") has now come back to bite us.

 

[frodshamfella]

The above debate is too complexed for me to comment, but one thing I would say is the North's rail provision is poor compared to London, I'm sure I read something recently about a proposal of a new line from Heathrow to Surrey, the government is backing it of course. I'm looking forward to the Halton Curve opening all1.5 miles of it ! How long has that taken !

 

[B&I]

Ok, let's put it this way. Say an open access operator wants to run a Liverpool-Sheffield service on top of the existing service. As it was, there was no chance. Too many TPE services to from Ardwick -Airport required the paths for getting in and out of Picc. At least now because those trains now stay slow, the Buxtons and the mid Cheshire's, can now stay off the slows and leave via Eastern/Fast lines. Therefore in theory meaning a path could be used for this hypothetical service. However the issue then becomes the island at 13/14 which an extra platform naturally helps. (15/16). The main problem then left to solve is getting across Slade Lane. Someone like the planner would know if this is doable or whether it's been used up, but I'm trying to show you how it can benefit Liverpool

If teleportation was invented, we could get Mr Scott to beam trains from Stockport to Piccadilly, and that might benefit Liverpool. Frankly, what you are suggesting is, in the absence of a whole series of now-kibboshed further infrastructure works, about as likely, and of about as much real-world value to anyone living in Liverpool (or anywhere else) as the Star Trek solution

 

[B&I]

Yeah, you are missing something. A stable company to operate those trains. You've not even gave it chance to bed in yet. I've also worked out of Picc and know very well how it operates. Just crossing fast -slow uses up paths, Slade Lane is a nightmare still, the double red block system around Manchester is a capacity eater. They all impact on what can and can't be run out of Lime St.

In reply to you personally, I've no idea if you were born there, got the accent, whatever, it's all irrelevant, you live there, which is all that matters in the context of this thread, I work there, I see what I find, and it needs XC links restoring, but it's got a fairly decent service coming, further improvements coming, and is having some well deserved money spent on it. Compare it to Hull or Bradford, or even Stoke as other comparable sized populations and Liverpool is doing alright. However none do anything like as well as London, which what we should be looking at. Not our neighbours. If you're still not convinced then I can live with that.

Why is it in the least bit relevant that I live there ?

 

[Chester1]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that your apparent ignorance about the replacement of Merseyside for all official purposes is ignorance rather than mischief-making.

But as your response to a thread about rail provision to Liverpool is an attempt to play down the size of the urban area's population, and as the only destination outside 'Merseyside' which you mention in your response is Manchester, I think your stance in this discussion is becoming easier to understand.

Its not ignorance, its pointing out you are factually incorrect. Although no longer a resident of the area I have spent the vast majority of my life in Wirral or Chester, I am not bias against Liverpool! Its simply the case that Liverpool city region has considerably less than the 2 million people you stated and the catchment area for Lime street long distance services is much smaller. Whether it be services to Manchester and across the Pennines or to Birmingham or London plenty of residents of the area have better options. For many people living near Northern Line stations the quickest route to Manchester / Sheffield/Leeds/Birmingham was already changing at South Parkway. You prefered to call me ignorant than answer my question, which areas are you adding to Merseyside to get to 2 million people? Even adding in Halton and Warrington boroughs which both have their own long distance services, does not get you to 2 million. An 8 week closure and use of South Parkway is a very reasonable result of rebuilding most of the platforms and track layout at Lime Street. Liverpool is not being treated badly because it had blockades caused by major infrastructure upgrades!

The above debate is too complexed for me to comment, but one thing I would say is the North's rail provision is poor compared to London, I'm sure I read something recently about a proposal of a new line from Heathrow to Surrey, the government is backing it of course. I'm looking forward to the Halton Curve opening all1.5 miles of it ! How long has that taken !

The government is supporting Southern and Western access to Heathrow plans because like the current line to Heathrow they will be funded, owned and built by the private sector. I agree the North has been short changed on infrastructure investment but Heathrow rail links are a very bad example to use. Crossrail 2 is similiar because while the central government is offering to help TfL finance the scheme it won't actually be paying for it. Its support for both Heathrow schemes and Crossrail 2 is therefore helpful but very limited. TfGM doesn’t seem to be after the government paying much of the cost of expanding the Airport line, just helping with financing, so I am sure the government very much supports those plans too!

 

[B&I]

Its not ignorance, its pointing out you are factually incorrect. Although no longer a resident of the area I have spent the vast majority of my life in Wirral or Chester, I am not bias against Liverpool! Its simply the case that Liverpool city region has considerably less than the 2 million people you stated and the catchment area for Lime street long distance services is much smaller. Whether it be services to Manchester and across the Pennines or to Birmingham or London plenty of residents of the area have better options. For many people living near Northern Line stations the quickest route to Manchester / Sheffield/Leeds/Birmingham was already changing at South Parkway. You prefered to call me ignorant than answer my question, which areas are you adding to Merseyside to get to 2 million people? Even adding in Halton and Warrington boroughs which both have their own long distance services, does not get you to 2 million. An 8 week closure and use of South Parkway is a very reasonable result of rebuilding most of the platforms and track layout at Lime Street. Liverpool is not being treated badly because it had blockades caused by major infrastructure upgrades!

First you used the term Merseyside, now you use Liverpool City Region. I used a purposefully vaguer term because in my view neither of these administrative divisions reflects the proper population of the Liverpool area. I also said approaching 2 million people.

The Liverpool area, btw, is hardly unique in having demand split acorss several major stations, all with long-distance services. You could say the same of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands.

One point of definite factual inaccuracy in your comment is your reference to 8 weeks of disruption, when the overall period, on and off, has far exceeded that already. Nor have you addressed the issues of why the work is taking so long, or why the substitute services to Lime Street are so poor. Do you have any actual answers on any of these points, or are you going to carry on dismissing issues which other people raise without any reasoning of your own ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

What seems to be playing out in this thread is squabbling amongst interested parties. Just like our politicians and why TfN will never be able to speak with an united voice because people are clambering to be the most hard done to.

 

[B&I]

What seems to be playing out in this thread is squabbling amongst interested parties. Just like our politicians and why TfN will never be able to speak with an united voice because people are clambering to be the most hard done to.

If TfN cannot arrange an adequate service to a major northern city during a period of disruption, what's the point of it ?

 

[driver_m]

If teleportation was invented, we could get Mr Scott to beam trains from Stockport to Piccadilly, and that might benefit Liverpool. Frankly, what you are suggesting is, in the absence of a whole series of now-kibboshed further infrastructure works, about as likely, and of about as much real-world value to anyone living in Liverpool (or anywhere else) as the Star Trek solution

I'm wasting my time aren't I? Never mind. (PS. 15/16 hasn't been cancelled. In limbo definitely, but not cancelled) Let's just see something in writing first before trying to take the Mick with star trek comparisons. I was trying to be considerate but if that's the level of debate, then carry on with your ranting.

 

[notlob.divad]

An 8 week closure and use of South Parkway is a very reasonable result of rebuilding most of the platforms and track layout at Lime Street. Liverpool is not being treated badly because it had blockades caused by major infrastructure upgrades!

The point is: during previous blockades (before the timetable change) TPE continued their ex Scarborough service to South Parkway and stopped their Newcastle Service at Victoria. Now, (post timetable change) they are using is as a good excuse to stop both cross-pennine services at Victoria thus putting significantly more pressure on the hourly northern service via Chat Moss. We are simply pointing out that there is nothing obvious preventing one of those TPE services continuing at least as far as Huyton where the extra passengers could be spread across 3 different services.
I don't think that is an illegitimate complaint given the lack of a 2nd northern TPH.

We appreciate that long term progress comes at the cost of short term disruption, and the investment in Lime Street is desperately needed. However, when the headline outcome is a net gain of just 1 platform, and we are now into the 2nd summer blockade in addition to intervening Christmas and Easter blockades, people are naturally going to question whether the disruption is worth it., particularly when you consider this is in addition to all of the Ordsall Chord disruption, which impacted on the city region and has provided no long term benefit this side of the WCML.

 

[Chester1]

First you used the term Merseyside, now you use Liverpool City Region. I used a purposefully vaguer term because in my view neither of these administrative divisions reflects the proper population of the Liverpool area. I also said approaching 2 million people.

The Liverpool area, btw, is hardly unique in having demand split acorss several major stations, all with long-distance services. You could say the same of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands.

One point of definite factual inaccuracy in your comment is your reference to 8 weeks of disruption, when the overall period, on and off, has far exceeded that already. Nor have you addressed the issues of why the work is taking so long, or why the substitute services to Lime Street are so poor. Do you have any actual answers on any of these points, or are you going to carry on dismissing issues which other people raise without any reasoning of your own ?

Liverpool City Region is the name of the area covered by the Combined Authority which is the 5 boroughs of Merseyside + Halton Borough with a combined population of just under 1.6 million. As I have pointed out plenty of the region has an alternative services or people already changed at South Parkway. I assume you don't state where the 2 million figure came from because you have realised you would have to add swathes of neighbouring counties to get from Merseysides 1.4m to anything close to 2 million?

I am not answering the issue about speed of work because I am not an engineer or involved in the project and there is nothing other than anecodatal evidence to say they are wasting time. The blockade times are similiar to the most comparable recent work (Waterloo). You have already dismissed Driver_M so there is no point in discussing service level.

The point is: during previous blockades (before the timetable change) TPE continued their ex Scarborough service to South Parkway and stopped their Newcastle Service at Victoria. Now, (post timetable change) they are using is as a good excuse to stop both cross-pennine services at Victoria thus putting significantly more pressure on the hourly northern service via Chat Moss. We are simply pointing out that there is nothing obvious preventing one of those TPE services continuing at least as far as Huyton where the extra passengers could be spread across 3 different services.
I don't think that is an illegitimate complaint given the lack of a 2nd northern TPH.

We appreciate that long term progress comes at the cost of short term disruption, and the investment in Lime Street is desperately needed. However, when the headline outcome is a net gain of just 1 platform, and we are now into the 2nd summer blockade in addition to intervening Christmas and Easter blockades, people are naturally going to question whether the disruption is worth it., particularly when you consider this is in addition to all of the Ordsall Chord disruption, which impacted on the city region and has provided no long term benefit this side of the WCML.

The extra platform and associated work will allow 3 extra services in and out per hour which is a considerable increase. By comparison that is the same number of paths as the Ordsall Chord enabled at Piccadilly platforms 1-12. It is also the last major upgrade in capacity at Lime Street that can be done without an enormous demolition and expansion project.

 

[B&I]

Liverpool City Region is the name of the area covered by the Combined Authority which is the 5 boroughs of Merseyside + Halton Borough with a combined population of just under 1.6 million. As I have pointed out plenty of the region has an alternative services or people already changed at South Parkway. I assume you don't state where the 2 million figure came from because you have realised you would have to add swathes of neighbouring counties to get from Merseysides 1.4m to anything close to 2 million?

I am not answering the issue about speed of work because I am not an engineer or involved in the project and there is nothing other than anecodatal evidence to say they are wasting time. The blockade times are similiar to the most comparable recent work (Waterloo). You have already dismissed Driver_M so there is no point in discussing service level.

I've already commented on the population issue.

I see you persist with the argument that disruptuion at Lime Street can be ignored, because of South Parkway. By the same token, the disruption ay Waterloo can't have meant very much, because Clapham Junction remained open.

I haven't 'dismissed' Driver M. I (and a number of others) pointed out that his argument that Liverpool has benefitted from the Ordsall Chord is unconvincing because it depends on a series of further enhancements which a. are not currently being made b. may not benefit Liverpool if and when they are made. He didn't like someone disagreeing with him and took a huff.

He didn't actually address the issue of why there is such an inadequate service to Lime Street during the works, so I dln't.know why you're using my 'dismissal' of him as a reason to avoid answering this question. Your own previous explanations for the dearth of service have, I have to say, not been very persuasive