Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[stuart]

It would have made the fleet fractionally less flexible, but I would have thought the payoff in terms of shunting (passengers and carriages) would be worth it. Agree that the walk is unlikely to bother any of the seated car customers, but the more complicated the shunting and the more wandering around on the platform there is, the more the opportunity to disturb sleeping car passengers. It would also have meant that train doors could have remained locked during the operations in Edinburgh, leading to greater safety and security. Oh well, they didn't ask us!

 

[Bletchleyite]

leading to greater safety and security

Have there been...
a) Any passenger injuries
b) Any thefts
...as a result of the doors being unlocked at Edinburgh? I bet there haven't been many if any. Shunts go on all the time around the network with passengers around, particularly down South - OK it's just EMUs, but the dangers are basically the same as far as passengers go - i.e. they only really occur when passengers are somewhere they shouldn't be i.e. on the track or too near it.

Do you actually mean "it would be operationally easier if those pesky passengers weren't getting in the way"? Though my observation (having done the seats twice) is that they don't really do that any more than they do when joining another 350 onto a set at Northampton, i.e. not really at all.

 

[marks87]

It would have made the fleet fractionally less flexible, but I would have thought the payoff in terms of shunting (passengers and carriages) would be worth it. Agree that the walk is unlikely to bother any of the seated car customers, but the more complicated the shunting and the more wandering around on the platform there is, the more the opportunity to disturb sleeping car passengers. It would also have meant that train doors could have remained locked during the operations in Edinburgh, leading to greater safety and security. Oh well, they didn't ask us!

The shunting isn't made more complicated by removing the Fort William seats and lounge. They just uncouple a different coupling (between carriages, instead of between loco and carriages).

 

[gsnedders]

They've improved it a bit by fitting Scharfenbergs. For the Lowlander I suppose they could have ordered EMUs instead?

Heck, they could use EMUs for the Highlander, and just couple a diesel loco to the front for the trek north from Edinburgh. Given the platform length issues, that would probably be more beneficial than moving the Lowlander over to EMUs.

 

[BRX]

I think the EMU idea was discussed somewhere earlier in this thread. There are issues relating to maintenance and being able to swap individual vehicles in and out. Flexibility around different levels of demand on different routes at different times of year. Etc.

 

[87015]

They've improved it a bit by fitting Scharfenbergs. For the Lowlander I suppose they could have ordered EMUs instead?

Whats the improvement? Auto-couplers have to be banged together to lock at a higher speed than you can 'buffer kiss' traditional stock together, don't they?

 

[TimboM]

Agree the point about the Euston (and possibly other locations) length limitation. But there could perhaps have been a solution along the lines of hybrid seated/lounge cars for the FTW and ABD portions without changing the overall capacity or length.

Aside from that being yet another variation in an already bespoke small order of stock, the "seats" also include the guard's accommodation and luggage storage. The "Club Car" (aka lounge) is also one of the main selling points of the new offering (with its higher prices) - and again requires the kitchen area too. Not sure it'd have really been feasible to combine a kitchen, lounge/club seating, seats, guard's accommodation and luggage all into one 22m coach...?

For various maintenance reasons, the sets also rotate continually between services (the southbound highlander is the next night's northbound lowlander stock and vice versa). This wouldn't be possible if some sets were specific to ABD/FTW and the rest were "normal" layout. Would all become a big headache...

 

[TimboM]

Whats the improvement? Auto-couplers have to be banged together to lock at a higher speed than you can 'buffer kiss' traditional stock together, don't they?

The MAXIMUM coupling speed is 1.5 mph - pretty slow!

Scroll to 0:35 in this video of Class 376s as an example - looks gentler than a "buffer kiss" to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whats the improvement? Auto-couplers have to be banged together to lock at a higher speed than you can 'buffer kiss' traditional stock together, don't they?

Nobody crawling around on the track, for one.

Mk3s use buckeyes which require a "bang" to the same level as a Scharfenberg if not harder. For safety reasons drawhooks and buffers aren't coming back except for attaching locos.

 

[TimboM]

Nobody crawling around on the track, for one.

Except for the driver/shunter who still has to connect up 2 sets of ETS cables...!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for the driver/shunter who still has to connect up 2 sets of ETS cables...!

Didn't have the sense to put them above floor level then?

 

[TimboM]

Didn't have the sense to put them above floor level then?

The locos (which were there first) have the connectors below floor level which is more the reason... might be possible to reach down from platform/buffer height to grab the ETS cables, but not too sure...

 

[captainbigun]

Shunter will still be in the four foot. ETS jumpers and 61-way jumpers. Plus pipes to the coupler if required.

 

[385001]

Flythrough of the new carriages here.

Looks good.

http://newtrains.sleeper.scot/on-board/activate/

 

[InOban]

Introduction on the Lowlander now has a confirmed date, October 28th, if I remember correctly. We were told at the Friends of the West Highland Lines today.

 

[395004]

I was wondering when they go to London where would they be cause I'm going to London in December and I'm hoping to take photos of the coaches

 

[ScottDarg]

I was wondering when they go to London where would they be cause I'm going to London in December and I'm hoping to take photos of the coaches

The stock goes to Wembley Intercity Depot for stabling and servicing during the day. That takes place within the shed I believe, so the best opportunity for photos is to be at Euston when the ECS arrives (19:40ish for Highlander, 21:25ish for Lowlander).

 

[TimboM]

I was wondering when they go to London where would they be cause I'm going to London in December and I'm hoping to take photos of the coaches

The stock goes to Wembley Intercity Depot for stabling and servicing during the day. That takes place within the shed I believe, so the best opportunity for photos is to be at Euston when the ECS arrives (19:40ish for Highlander, 21:25ish for Lowlander).

...and if it's Mk5s you're after, they'll only be on the Lowlander by December (hopefully!) so it'd be the 21:25ish to 23:50ish slot they're in Euston (every evening except Saturday) and also in the mornings from 07:00ish to 08:25ish (every morning except Sunday).

 

[HSTEd]

Shunter will still be in the four foot. ETS jumpers and 61-way jumpers. Plus pipes to the coupler if required.

If they are fitting non standard jumpers and couplings ... why on earth didn't they just fit autocouplers and be done with it?

 

[TimboM]

If they are fitting non standard jumpers and couplings ... why on earth didn't they just fit autocouplers and be done with it?

The electric supply required to power a 16-rake train full of electronic gizmos, showers etc. is far higher than can be handled through the Dellner couplings themselves (if that's what you mean). The 92s will supply ETS at 1,500v / 600 Amps.

And they are fitted with auto-couplers - that’s what Dellners are aren’t they??

 

[jagardner1984]

Does anyone know what the comparative capacity of the overall sets will be ? i.e. the breakdown of the different room types, and whether as many rooms can be accommodated as on the current sets (I'd assume not, with showers etc to fit in).

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

Adding to your question jagardner, are there layout plans available which detail how they actually fit the showers into the ensuite? My sincere apologies if this has already been covered but looking at the fly-through posted by 385001 above, it's not particularly clear.

 

[TimboM]

Adding to your question jagardner, are there layout plans available which detail how they actually fit the showers into the ensuite? My sincere apologies if this has already been covered but looking at the fly-through posted by 385001 above, it's not particularly clear.

See my stills from the fly-through (+ annotations) in this post - should help you work out where they are:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-mk5-discussion.125156/page-17#post-3440188

They're a single ensuite shower/toilet cubicle.

 

[TimboM]

Does anyone know what the comparative capacity of the overall sets will be ? i.e. the breakdown of the different room types, and whether as many rooms can be accommodated as on the current sets (I'd assume not, with showers etc to fit in).

Not sure of exact numbers, but it's certainly less - I believe it's two less berths per Sleeper car. They have started setting out the coaches now with the comparative number of "First" and "Standard" so maybe possible to work it out looking on the booking system.

The seated coaches have the same capacity (31).

 

[47271]

Not sure of exact numbers, but it's certainly less - I believe it's two less berths per Sleeper car. They have started setting out the coaches now with the comparative number of "First" and "Standard" so maybe possible to work it out looking on the booking system.

The seated coaches have the same capacity (31).

The mk3 plans on the booking system still show the standard half/half First/Standard layout for all but the accessible coach. So, take the Inverness section of the Highlander as an example:

Coaches K-P:
Rooms 1-6 First
Rooms 7-12 Standard

Coach J (accessible, should be adjacent to lounge):
Room 1 Accessible
Room 2 First
Room 3 First
Room 4 Standard
Room 5 Standard
Rooms 6-9 First
Rooms 10-12 Standard

And of course this is why we're getting people on here upset to find themselves unexpectedly in a Standard compartment. If you were booked in J8 First and the vehicle used for J has to be swapped for one that has a regular layout (God knows what happens to anyone needing an accessible anything) then you'll find yourself in a compartment with two bunks.

Whether the layout I've just described is directly interchangeable with that of the mk5s I don't know.

 

[mde]

And of course this is why we're getting people on here upset to find themselves unexpectedly in a Standard compartment. If you were booked in J8 First and the vehicle used for J has to be swapped for one that has a regular layout (God knows what happens to anyone needing an accessible anything) then you'll find yourself in a compartment with two bunks.

Going by a recent experience of mine, if you are due to be in J1 at Euston and it's occupied you get put onto the accessible in the Edinburgh portion and then have ticket-acceptance from Edinburgh to Glasgow with ScotRail. I'd imagine if both were in use they'd need to come up with a more creative solution however.

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

See my stills from the fly-through (+ annotations) in this post - should help you work out where they are:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-mk5-discussion.125156/page-17#post-3440188

They're a single ensuite shower/toilet cubicle.

Excellent - thank you very much TimboM.

 

[modernrail]

I have just done some digging and it would appear that for some reason they are locking people using a Two Together Railcard from a discount if booking a bed as opposed to a seat. This seems to alter the position from how it is now and also other railcards, which will continue to receive a discount on tickets with a bed (although I understand this is only on the base fare rather than room supplement). Seems illogical. Why the change just on this railcard and is this permitted in the franchise agreement?

So much for romance!

 

[ScottDarg]

5 Mk.5s were delivered to Polmadie this morning.

26/75 have now been delivered.

EDIT: Another 5 were delivered today (22/06).

Total delivered is now at 31 - 1 coach short of 2 full rakes.

 

[JModulo]

Don't think its been mentioned on this thread, but the first Velim 5 are currently at Brodies, Kilmarnock being fitted out and receiving mods.