Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,078
First thing's first, after reading through the Caledonian Sleeper Discussion thread I give permission for an admin to move this to the thread should they see fit.

What's the latest on the new sleeper carriages? I read an article a couple of months ago on Rail Magazine on the sleeper and it states that mockups of the carriages were due last autumn but as far as I'm aware there has been no such release.

Quoted from the article written on 16/09/2015:
The big change comes in 2018 when the present Mk 2 and Mk 3 rolling stock is replaced by the Mk 5 fleet being built by CAF in Beasain, Spain. A mock-up of these all-new vehicles is due this autumn, ahead of their delivery for testing in 2017. They will enter traffic in 2018. The plan is that the coaches will transform the iconic CS service into an outstanding hospitality service that is “emblematic of the best of Scotland.”
Seventy-five carriages will be built by CAF and they are being leased by the specialist rail asset financing arm of Lombard, part of The Royal Bank of Scotland, supported by additional funding from the Scottish Government. CAF will continue to support the new fleet with a contract to supply and manage spares while the coaches will be maintained by Alstom.
The new coaches will offer four innovative ways to travel in comfort on the Sleeper service - cradle seats, pod flatbeds, berths and en suite berths, and will include a brasserie-style club car for dining. Edinburgh-based designer Ian Smith is responsible for creating a contemporary style for the new coaches.
“The mock-up will show all the types of accommodation, rather than being a full vehicle. It is really important to show what they will look like. They [CAF] are being first class in the way they are working, as is Ian Smith and the design team.
“When people see these things, they will be impressed,” asserts Strachan.
The cradle seats recline and have footrests. The pod flatbeds will fully recline, from a seat into a bed, and offer a privacy screen and reading light. The berths ensure privacy and personal security, as well as all the facilities modern travellers need. En suite berths are also available, with toilet and shower facilities.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

kevin5025

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2015
Messages
48
First thing's first, after reading through the Caledonian Sleeper Discussion thread I give permission for an admin to move this to the thread should they see fit.

What's the latest on the new sleeper carriages? I read an article a couple of months ago on Rail Magazine on the sleeper and it states that mockups of the carriages were due last autumn but as far as I'm aware there has been no such release.
I see the Rail article only quotes the Scottish Government funding. Transport Scotland only mentions this funding, but in fact there is match funding from the UK government - see http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/nov/29/sleeper-trains-london-scotland-50m. Transport Scotland seems to be an SNP mouthpiece so they don't mention this funding, hence journalists don't report it.

Interesting to hear about the mock ups being on the way. I am curious as to how the new sets will be introduced. Will they replace entire sets, or will individual coaches be replaced as the new ones become available. The latter would only work where they are the same interior make up, for booking systems.
 

kevin5025

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2015
Messages
48
You've answered your own question: the interiors are different.
Sorry, I should have explained that more clearly. The lounge and seated cars will have similar interiors, so in theory, they could be swapped as individual vehicles. I wonder if CS will swap them once they arrive allowing them to retire the Mk2's early, as they must be the vehicles that are most difficult to source spare parts for. Would we see Mk5's running with Mk3 sleepers?

The other coaches have different interiors. Even the sleepers have a couple (or more) of ensuite cabins, so they wouldn't be able to swap individual vehicles. But, they could swap, for example, one Mk5 sleeper for a Mk3 on each set, and update the reservations system accordingly. Are they likely to do either, or will we see the new coaches introduced as complete sets all at once?
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
2,365
Sorry, I should have explained that more clearly. The lounge and seated cars will have similar interiors, so in theory, they could be swapped as individual vehicles. I wonder if CS will swap them once they arrive allowing them to retire the Mk2's early, as they must be the vehicles that are most difficult to source spare parts for. Would we see Mk5's running with Mk3 sleepers?

The other coaches have different interiors. Even the sleepers have a couple (or more) of ensuite cabins, so they wouldn't be able to swap individual vehicles. But, they could swap, for example, one Mk5 sleeper for a Mk3 on each set, and update the reservations system accordingly. Are they likely to do either, or will we see the new coaches introduced as complete sets all at once?
There's an issue with consist length, platform length and signal positioning at Euston which limits the length of the Sleeper, the new stock is being built to 22m length to meet this restriction. That will limit what way round any substitution of Mark 2 for Mark 5 vehicles can take place. Mark 3 to Mark 5 substitution isn't a significant issue.

I don't know if semi-auto auto-couplers are to be used, they were the intended method of operation with Nightstar, if that's the case, then the Mark 2 and Mark 3 coaches today might not be able to couple to the new stock.
 
Last edited:

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,521
Location
Macclesfield
As Neil Williams seems to suggest, is it even possible for automatic and slam door fitted stock to work together in passenger service? I would have thought there would be a number of issues concerning door operation and locking surrounding that.

I strongly suspect that the new Caledonian Sleeper stock will enter service as complete rakes.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
51,299
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
As Neil Williams seems to suggest is it even possible for automatic and slam door fitted stock to work together in passenger service? I would have thought there would be a number of issues concerning door operation and locking surrounding that.
I can't see an operational problem with making this stock CDL compatible - after all, locked/unlocked is easily translated into controlling a sliding door, and in Europe a mix of coach types all using UIC door control is common.

However, as there is no requirement to do this, I would suspect the new coaches will have a more modern, incompatible system for that - and other things like fire detection.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,521
Location
Macclesfield
I can't see an operational problem with making this stock CDL compatible - after all, locked/unlocked is easily translated into controlling a sliding door, and in Europe a mix of coach types all using UIC door control is common.

However, as there is no requirement to do this, I would suspect the new coaches will have a more modern, incompatible system for that - and other things like fire detection.
Thanks for that - so definitely not as complex as I think, but still unlikely.
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,078
As briefly reported by Rail Magazine today;

Caledonian Sleeper (CS) is sending a Class 73/9 to the Velim test track in the Czech Republic.

The electro-diesel, owned by GB Railfreight (GBRf), will be used for testing the Mk 5s on order for CS, which are being built by Construcciones y Auxiliar Ferrocarriles (CAF).

For much more on this EXCLUSIVE story, including details of the test, which '73' is heading abroad and when, read RAIL 818, published on January 18.
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/czech-trip-for-caledonian-sleeper-class-73

Looks like we can be expecting some more coverage on the Mk5s in the coming weeks given that a 73 has been sent abroad to test them. Although knowing CAF's tight lip way of doing things, we won't here a thing! Hopefully, there will be some photos in Rail 818.
 
Last edited:

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,078
Interesting. I knew construction had started, but didn't realise it was that far along.
Photos of body shells were released in June last year, so there's bound to be at least a full carriage completed externally or near enough anyway.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
21,366
Location
Scotland
Photo's of body shells were released in June last year, so there's bound to be at least a full carriage completed externally or near enough anyway.
Yeah, but I'd imagine they've got close to a full rake complete internally for it to be worth tying up a loco over there for testing.
 
Last edited:

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,078
Yeah, but I'd imagine they've got close to a full rake complete internally for it to be worth trying up a loco over there for testing.
Suppose so.

Just a shame CAF are keeping tight lips on this so far, compared to what the likes of Hitachi and Bombardier are like.

They've not even updated the Caledonian Sleeper section of their pages since the initial order of the Mk5s was made.
 

TimboM

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2016
Messages
3,583
You'd think they'd need to send a 92 over at some point for testing too, given they'll be hauling the largest rakes for the longest distances. If they can spare one that is...
 

Roast Veg

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
941
They only need to know that the ETS system works first. If it works, and then there is a subsequent issue with large rakes, that can be solved after delivery.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
3,312
Is that the only test facility they can use? That seems an awfully long way to go to test a British loco and Spanish carriages?
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
4,675
Location
WIM/PBO
Is that the only test facility they can use? That seems an awfully long way to go to test a British loco and Spanish carriages?
I think the fact that it has such high speeds over relatively flat ground means that it's more ideal for pushing stock to the limits. Old Dalby doesn't quite have that.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
3,312
I think the fact that it has such high speeds over relatively flat ground means that it's more ideal for pushing stock to the limits. Old Dalby doesn't quite have that.
I'm surprised CAF don't have access to a facility in Spain for example
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,599
I'm surprised CAF don't have access to a facility in Spain for example
Funny you should mention that, I think the funding got blocked by Europe on the basis that Velim exists (with significqnt EU contribution) and is not overloaded.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
21,366
Location
Scotland
Funny you should mention that, I think the funding got blocked by Europe on the basis that Velim exists (with significqnt EU contribution) and is not overloaded.
What?! The EU chose to avoid duplication of effort. When did that start happening?

(I'm looking at you Strasbourg / Brussels).
 
Last edited:

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
3,312
Funny you should mention that, I think the funding got blocked by Europe on the basis that Velim exists (with significqnt EU contribution) and is not overloaded.
I'm surprised Velim isn't busier, if most of Europe uses it to test new stock?
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,078
Has anyone read the featured article about the 73s and Mk5s in the Rail Magazine?

Just curious as I don't often take an interest in most of the content (unless local to me) to actually buy it.
 

Top