ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Wst71Pa2]

Had a thought coming up the road from GLQ the other day, wonder if all those disused relief sidings might just come in handy especially in the long sections

 

[TheMuttley]

Can't believe there's still so much debate about the HST decision... the mods might need to change the discussion title

On a slightly different note, regarding the discussion about the potential (in theory) of extending the sets (or should it be rakes?), are all the intended stops for the inter-city services capable of handling 6+ coaches?

 

[Paul Kerr]

A 4 car Stadler Class 755 doesn't have underfloor engines and will beat a 4 car HST though, and it is possible to add things like sealed vestibules to them.

Fair point to a degree, and it looks like a very interesting concept for a train, but looking at the mock-ups it seems to be designed as a high-density commuter/inter-regional unit rather than something that would be used on inter-city services. If they did a more inter-city oriented design it would be worth considering.

The jury is still out on bi-mode trains for me though. I'd like to see more data on reliability on them before committing. Like them or not, the HSTs are a proven design.

 

[47271]

We have to be resigned to the near certainty that every jolt and squeak on these trains once they start in service will be pored over by the Scottish media, and of course this forum. This'll happen even if they turn out to be as, or even more, reliable than the 170s.

Exactly the same thing will occur with the new Caledonian Sleeper stock - there'll be a prepacked storm of criticism whether a train is brand new or 40 years old.

I think that the general public will take the HSTs for what they are - a quicker and far more comfortable way to get from one end of Scotland to the other, and usage will increase as a result. Scotrail just need to be sure that there isn't some terrible reliability or other issue that does genuine damage to the trains' reputation. Here's hoping.

 

[gsnedders]

On a slightly different note, regarding the discussion about the potential (in theory) of extending the sets (or should it be rakes?), are all the intended stops for the inter-city services capable of handling 6+ coaches?

No.

Newtonmore can only take 5 coaches (with the power cars off the platform) and the Up (southbound) platform at Dalwhinnie can only take 4 (though the loop is far, far longer).

 

[James James]

Fair point to a degree, and it looks like a very interesting concept for a train, but looking at the mock-ups it seems to be designed as a high-density commuter/inter-regional unit rather than something that would be used on inter-city services. If they did a more inter-city oriented design it would be worth considering.

Stadler build whatever the customer orders. Flirt's already exist in an Intecity version: PKP run an intercity flirt, SOB will soon run an almost intercity Flirt (they don't have closed off vestibules, but are otherwise IC standard), Stadler are building the SBB's new Intercity Giruno (which is closely related to the Flirt). There's no question they could deliver an Intercity product, the main questions are around the bi-mode range/reliability. (They even offer Window alignment, although non-Swiss railways tend to not care about that...)

 

[TheMuttley]

No.

Newtonmore can only take 5 coaches (with the power cars off the platform) and the Up (southbound) platform at Dalwhinnie can only take 4 (though the loop is far, far longer).

Strange these aren't targets for lengthening under the Highlands improvement project...

 

[Stoney1979]

No.

Newtonmore can only take 5 coaches (with the power cars off the platform) and the Up (southbound) platform at Dalwhinnie can only take 4 (though the loop is far, far longer).

Isn't it possible to just keep the doors that are off the platform locked and tell people to move through the train to doors that will open? I may be wrong but I seem to recall the rear coach of the current southbound LNER HST service at Pitlochry is not accommodated.

 

[TheMuttley]

Isn't it possible to just keep the doors that are off the platform locked and tell people to move through the train to doors that will open? I may be wrong but I seem to recall the rear coach of the current southbound LNER HST service at Pitlochry is not accommodated.

But can you do this with the new refurbished mk3 coaches?

 

[Stoney1979]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/20-million-contract-to-reduce-train-times-15062018.htm

Turns out there is some such work planned....

 

[TheMuttley]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/20-million-contract-to-reduce-train-times-15062018.htm

Turns out there is some such work planned....

But this only seems to cover Aviemore/Pitlochry:

"Work will include significant re-signalling of both Aviemore and Pitlochry stations, which will see the historic semaphore signals replaced with colour lights.

Further work will include the extension of the double track section to the north at Aviemore station, a platform extension at Pitlochry and improvements at Inverness, Kincraig and the Slochd.
"

 

[Stoney1979]

But this only seems to cover Aviemore/Pitlochry:

Indeed. I'll defer to others on here who will know far more about it than I do.

 

[Aictos]

As I understand it, the GWR HST sets had a form of SDO fitted so you either had all the doors released, all the doors to the front of the guard or all the doors to the rear of the guard being released but it's been a while since I've read up on the manual...

Either way, the fact the Scotrail HSTs are getting power doors doesn't mean they can't have a form of SDO fitted so they can call at all stations regardless of length of the HST.

In any case, even without SDO the length of the train shouldn't make a difference after all if the Eastern and Western regions managed for decades with just a simple sticker and announcement regarding short platforms then surely Scotrail be fine besides you can always move down in the train to a door that's beside the platfform.

 

[InOban]

No.

Newtonmore can only take 5 coaches (with the power cars off the platform) and the Up (southbound) platform at Dalwhinnie can only take 4 (though the loop is far, far longer).

The loop at Dalwhinnie extends the whole way to Blair Atholl!.....

How does the sleeper manage?

 

[BRX]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/20-million-contract-to-reduce-train-times-15062018.htm

Turns out there is some such work planned....

They've managed to illustrate the story with a picture not of the HML but the start of the Kyle/FN lines...

 

[gsnedders]

As I understand it, the GWR HST sets had a form of SDO fitted so you either had all the doors released, all the doors to the front of the guard or all the doors to the rear of the guard being released but it's been a while since I've read up on the manual...

Either way, the fact the Scotrail HSTs are getting power doors doesn't mean they can't have a form of SDO fitted so they can call at all stations regardless of length of the HST.

Right, the appropriate question as to longer running HSTs is the form of SDO in use, if any. And I presume they will have SDO given otherwise Dalwhinnie calls would be limited to 2+4s.

In any case, even without SDO the length of the train shouldn't make a difference after all if the Eastern and Western regions managed for decades with just a simple sticker and announcement regarding short platforms then surely Scotrail be fine besides you can always move down in the train to a door that's beside the platfform.

Note new stock isn't allowed to rely on announcements alone; existing stock is only allowed to through grandfather rights at stations they have historically called at. Whether that extends to the door replacement is a separate question.

The loop at Dalwhinnie extends the whole way to Blair Atholl!.....

How does the sleeper manage?

I'd guess they require you to be in the front four coaches, given what they do elsewhere?

 

[Highland37]

I'd have liked a bit more to have been done with using the vast storage space in the luggage vans of the power cars, however - why not have a 'checked luggage facility' for end to end passengers? The luggage van is secure and bikes will be stored there for end to end journeys too. I believe East Coast/Virgin/LNER do/did the same thing?

I hope the space will be well used. It can take tandems, but can Scotrail handle that? I will ask them.

 

[47271]

The only HML station that can't accommodate a six car 170 under any circumstances is Newtonmore, and it's the only one with no loop thanks to BR in the 80s.

It's commonly skipped when the early evening Edinburgh and Glasgow to Inverness services are merged at Perth. On departure from Perth the conductor asks who's going to Newtonmore and the handful of people are people are put in a taxi at Kingussie.

I've never heard of a problem at Dalwhinnie, but that's probably because the chances of use of the short platform coinciding with a long set and anyone getting on or off are pretty small. They're smart enough to deal with it when it happens I'm sure.

My experience of the Highlander sleeper and short platforms is that they open up on the basis that it's most unlikely that a random individual in Coaches N or P won't have been warned or supervised by their host - the seated coach and lounge are always platformed as a priority.

 

[47271]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/20-million-contract-to-reduce-train-times-15062018.htm

Turns out there is some such work planned....

See also in relation to Pitlochry, includes full planning app detail.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/highland-mainline-upgrade.162101/page-3

 

[Stoney1979]

See also in relation to Pitlochry, includes full planning app detail.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/highland-mainline-upgrade.162101/page-3

Thanks. I noticed some surveying going on there a couple of months ago. Didn't think anything of it at the time, but no doubt that's what it was about.

 

[CC 72100]

The GWR short set does, I understand, have some SDO, although it is only available at 2 panels (one on each side of the train) compared to a traditional GWR HST where all panels (with the exception of those in the TGS van area) offer an SDO facility, making all sorts of combinations possible. There is no reason why the Scotrail short sets may not have the same?

 

[InOban]

Thanks. I noticed some surveying going on there a couple of months ago. Didn't think anything of it at the time, but no doubt that's what it was about.

I believe the work is scheduled for November, which isn't popular with the village as it coincides with its famous festival of lights in the surrounding forests.

 

[Stoney1979]

I believe the work is scheduled for November, which isn't popular with the village as it coincides with its famous festival of lights in the surrounding forests.

Probably never a good time for it - but this area, and most of Scotland it seems, is absolutely heaving with tourists right now. Just a balance between minimal disruption and, hopefully, having reasonable weather to get it done.

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind everyone that this thread is for the discussion of the refurbishment and entry into service of HST sets with ScotRail.

There has been a significant amount of discussion of other, off topic, matters on this thread up until now. I would ask that this is posted in a suitable alternative, existing or new, thread moving forward.

thanks

 

[Northhighland]

We have to be resigned to the near certainty that every jolt and squeak on these trains once they start in service will be pored over by the Scottish media, and of course this forum. This'll happen even if they turn out to be as, or even more, reliable than the 170s.

Exactly the same thing will occur with the new Caledonian Sleeper stock - there'll be a prepacked storm of criticism whether a train is brand new or 40 years old.

I think that the general public will take the HSTs for what they are - a quicker and far more comfortable way to get from one end of Scotland to the other, and usage will increase as a result. Scotrail just need to be sure that there isn't some terrible reliability or other issue that does genuine damage to the trains' reputation. Here's hoping.

Genuinely think the HST will be welcomed with open arms. The public already like the LNER versions much better than the 170 the ScotRail refurb should be a lot better than the LNER sets.

Agree reliability is the area needing most attention, evidently the GWT maintenance teams were on top of the situation no reason why Scitrail staff cannot be equally as effective given the right training.

There is an argument around why we are investing in 40 year old trains, however that is passed. For me the biggest danger to the public acceptance of the programme is Wabtec and the very late delivery of the sets. Starting to look like this programme is totally out of any control.

 

[TheMuttley]

For me the biggest danger to the public acceptance of the programme is Wabtec and the very late delivery of the sets. Starting to look like this programme is totally out of any control.

Absolutely... not really buying the official "lack of carpet" line!

 

[43096]

Starting to look like this programme is totally out of any control.

Only thing that looks to be going out of control are the rumours being posted on the internet. Same applies to the 769 programme.

From a company management perspective, I’m actually quite impressed at how few leaks there have been from within the organisation.

 

[najaB]

Starting to look like this programme is totally out of any control.

Delayed ≠ totally out of control*. Not saying it is all running swimmingly, but it also isn't necessarily as bad as you're making it out to be.

*On a nerd-level, it could only be said to be out of control if they were producing output with deviations from norm greater than the control limits.

 

[jingsmonty]

Strange these aren't targets for lengthening under the Highlands improvement project...

Newtonmore & Dalwhinnie (South) will probably just be worked by 'one door operation', same as Beauly & Conon Bridge stations on the North line. I don't think the passenger numbers (particularly at Dalwhinnie) would justify the cost of extending the platforms.
A bigger issue I think is the platforms at Dunkeld & Birnam - they are ridiculously low & if the plan to run (temporarily) with slam door HSTs is happening, then access to/from the train will be a real issue (I know, I've tried it....).

 

[jingsmonty]

Very well put. The argument about "40 year old trains" reminds me of a sketch from Only Fools and Horses when Trigger says his "….old broom as only had 17 new heads and 14 new handles". Time will tell of course, but common sense suggests that if the refurbs are done to a high quality, and proper maintenance takes place, then reliability should not be a problem unless or until any components that can't be replaced or maintained fail. I have no detailed knowledge of this but, I guess, this could be factors such as metal fatigue within the structures of the vehicles which finally ends their service lives.

As a more general principle, past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance - as a teacher this is something which is core to how I think about pupils that come my way.

I understand that anti corrosion work is part of the refurbishment, both for the Power Cars & the coaches - the refurbished power cars actually look quite smart (inside too). Love the 'Trigger' analogy - that occurred to me as well! As a whimsical observation, I noticed that all the internal doors & panels in the power cars & coaches (unrefurbished) actually seem to fit far better than those in the Class 158s/170s! They may be old, but they seem to have been built like tanks!!

A couple of us have speculated that the Scotrail HSTs would have suited the standard 'Saltire' blue livery on the rest of the fleet, although I like the 'Inter7City' branding - I just wonder how the fairly pale livery will stand up - it looks like a dirt magnet!

I think the jury will remain out until they actually start entering service. I think when they initially enter service, they will run within the existing timetable, to 158/170 timings. I'm sure there will be teething issues (as there has been on the training train sets), but the Scotrail maintenance staff will have to have time to get a thorough knowledge of the HST, as well as the train crews - this will only happen by actually running them on a regular basis.

Was going to mention the response to the Stadler Flirt trains, but would be veering off topic!!