Are station-to-station journeys slower?So travellers to the south west have either a sideways or slightly backwards step in speed compared to a HST.
Are station-to-station journeys slower?So travellers to the south west have either a sideways or slightly backwards step in speed compared to a HST.
So travellers to the south west have either a sideways or slightly backwards step in speed compared to a HST. How is it acceptable that we may be stuck with these for the next 30 years and yet they are no better performers than HSTs and in some way worse???? Surely this strengthens the case to get on and electrfiy the b and h plus parts of Devon, otherwise the southwest is going to fall further behind economically and socially (and is fairing far worse than the north by the way) . Will we get electrification down here? I doubt it as other regions will as usual shout louder , and no doubt be the beneficiary of any additional electrification. For me if we don't get.more wires, we need new trains down here
.........rant over
Yes and the other factor that will add some journey time on is the splitting and joining of 5 car sets at Plymouth. I can certainly see some overall journey times being slower for example reading to Liskeard or bodmin. 9 car sets on the cornish trains would of helped a little in this respect but apparently they are not to be , and will generally not see use west of Plymouth. All in all coupled with the hopelessly uncomfortable seats a recipe for losing passengers and damaging the south west's already frail economy.I tend to agree with what you have written here. The 800s were never meant to be used the way they now are but 802s were supposed to offer increased speed to the timetable down here in the south west. I know it's early days and it takes a while for everything to bed in (maybe once the entire operation is IET it will magically be quicker, i don't know?) but it does seem that any time benefits that we are supposed to see (electric doors and acceleration) will all be un done by the fact the trains can't get to top speed easily. Yes they may accelerate quicker from a start but if a train is slowed for whatever reason its wasting all the time it gained.
Time will tell. I want them to succeed because we're stuck with them now.
Surely this strengthens the case to get on and electrfiy the b and h plus parts of Devon...
My understanding is that the acceleration under diesel is the same between the 802s and 800s. And that the previous difference was a cap on the engine kW output for the 800s that was upped to the same as the 802s once the realisation of just how little was being electrified was known.
For me yesterday confirmed just how underpowered the 800s are on diesel.
Sean was specifically referring to 802 performance on the West of England route, where claims have been made by GWR management of journey time reductions as a result of their introduction. I can only see this being possible through acceleration on the electrified part of the route, by removal of stops, or possibly by dwell time reduction. Having said that I'm hoping to soon see an end to this stupid practice of despatch staff having to touch HST door handles to make sure they are securely shut.For what purpose? They have no trouble at all operating on the Cotswold Line - you know, the sort of place the 800s are supposed to run on diesel, as opposed to trying to keep up with HST timings on the GWML to Bristol Parkway, which they were never intended to do in the first place.
Assuming today's 05.28 from Hereford to Paddington was the booked 800, it left Hereford 11 late but was back to time at Moreton-in-Marsh on a service that does not have long dwell times for pathing reasons at the likes of Evesham, unlike some other services on the route. Whatever the traction, compliments to the driver and train manager for that performance through the Malvern Hills and up Chipping Campden bank, fitting in nine intermediate stops on the way.
Sean was specifically referring to 802 performance on the West of England route, where claims have been made by GWR management of journey time reductions as a result of their introduction. I can only see this being possible through acceleration on the electrified part of the route, by removal of stops, or possibly by dwell time reduction. Having said that I'm hoping to soon see an end to this stupid practice of despatch staff having to touch HST door handles to make sure they are securely shut.
For me yesterday confirmed just how underpowered the 800s are on diesel.
No signal after pars section signal until treverrin tunnel at the top so wouldn't of been running on restrictive aspects. Another example of poor 802 performance on diesel.I know by posting this I am guaranteed to start a debate about the RPS and its merits, and I fully accept you can't derive a pattern from a single result, but I thought that this RPS report (http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/siteforum-list-action?post=4424&highlight=#siteforum-message-4424) on 802 performance was interesting. As I am familiar with the route, I was quite surprised by the 46mph climb between Par and Bodmin Parkway - I've never seen an HST do that at less than 55, so I'm wondering if it [the 802] was following a restrictive aspect.
Yesterday I was on the 802s from Bristol TM - Penzance - Paddington - Reading, and did the same the previous week with the HST (except the HST was stopped at PAD and didn't do the 20.03 PAD - PLY) and have posted details of the running with a comparison to the previous week on the Railway Performance Society forum under news.
Eastbound from Plymouth the 802s got away much the better and were 30s ahead emerging from Mutley Tunnel than the HST. After the 60 (not 70) restriction at Tavistock Jn the HST accelerated to 74 compared with 71 for the 802s. The 802s fell to 55 as you say, but the HST was going so well it had to be eased for the 60 at the top.
So the HST had clawed time back and was only 10s behind at Hemerdon, and 1s behind at Wrangaton and got ahead down to Totnes.
Earlier on the 802s did 97 through Wellington falling to 89-90 at Whiteball, compared with 100/94 for the HST (and 88/78 for the 800 on the Paignton a week ago). But the 802s got to Whiteball first by virtue of the faster start.
Stops were cautious as may be expected.
Later on the engine under coach I was in was cutting out, maybe others were too, and the climb of Lavington bank was laboured as a result - only 84 at Patney compared with 106 for the HST.
Fast accelerations on electric, notably quicker than the artificially constrained acceleration of the 800s.
Yes and the other factor that will add some journey time on is the splitting and joining of 5 car sets at Plymouth. I can certainly see some overall journey times being slower for example reading to Liskeard or bodmin. 9 car sets on the cornish trains would of helped a little in this respect but apparently they are not to be , and will generally not see use west of Plymouth. All in all coupled with the hopelessly uncomfortable seats a recipe for losing passengers and damaging the south west's already frail economy.
Assuming today's 05.28 from Hereford to Paddington was the booked 800, it left Hereford 11 late but was back to time at Moreton-in-Marsh on a service that does not have long dwell times for pathing reasons at the likes of Evesham, unlike some other services on the route. Whatever the traction, compliments to the driver and train manager for that performance through the Malvern Hills and up Chipping Campden bank, fitting in nine intermediate stops on the way.
The clue is in the word Yesterday, refers to his post #8214, only this morning in which he gave a detailed unbiassed report of his trip to Penzance and back. He's posted since, so if you want to keep on attacking him, I'm sure he can defend himself without my help.How exactly do thee words
For me yesterday confirmed just how underpowered the 800s are on diesel
refer to 802 performance on the West of England line?
Once GWR's detailed plans have been made public, I will definitely contemplate them. In the meantime are you able to tell me exactly where that 14 minute time saving comes from, given there are already trains which run non stop between Reading and Taunton, and even Reading and Exeter?Perhaps contemplate GWR's plans for the new West Country timetable to see where time savings will come - such as all Plymouth and Cornwall trains running non-stop between Reading and Taunton - and the the end of slam doors will indeed speed up station stops. The promised savings have never been massive, all in single figures, bar London-Penzance where a 14-minute saving was promised.
My problem with this is that at present stations in Cornwall are timetabled on average 2 minutes for station stops. In reality HSTsoften take a little longer but the timetable says 2 mintues. Is the new IET timetable really going to be able to offer 1 minute stops reliably throughout Cornwall? ? I just don't think that realistic. The minute anyone needs assistance or has extra luggage (extremely common in cornwall) that one minute stop goes out the window. I just don't think in practice there will be much actual time saving on the booked timetable.I suspect most of the 14 minutes will be made by reduced dwell times and faster acceleration at stations in Cornwall.
Yes and the other factor that will add some journey time on is the splitting and joining of 5 car sets at Plymouth. I can certainly see some overall journey times being slower for example reading to Liskeard or bodmin. 9 car sets on the cornish trains would of helped a little in this respect but apparently they are not to be , and will generally not see use west of Plymouth. All in all coupled with the hopelessly uncomfortable seats a recipe for losing passengers and damaging the south west's already frail economy.
The clue is in the word Yesterday, refers to his post #8214, only this morning in which he gave a detailed unbiassed report of his trip to Penzance and back. He's posted since, so if you want to keep on attacking him, I'm sure he can defend himself without my help.
One of the odd things about the GWR 800s (on the Hereford to Paddington route, at least) is those awful Stepford Wives style pre-recorded announcements. They get endlessly repeated in that sinister, robotic style and quite often have the wrong information in them! The other day, it announced the destination as Hereford (when it was Paddington). This caused some anxiety in the less regular travelers and prompted and apology from the train manager. Then a few mins later, the same announcement occurred again!
Surely that must be trivially easy to fix?!
(to be honest, I find the recent fad of having tons of announcements really quite annoying. Such as telling you not to forget to take your belongings with you! Seriously?? Are we all imbeciles?)
“The boy who cried wolf” - that’s exactly why they should bin the warning except where it is absolutely required.I think it's worth saying that when the gap is larger (such as the vast 1ft+ chasm at Clapham Jn P17) or the step higher than usual, or there's something really unusual like stepping *up* from the train like on parts of the Bakerloo. But normally it's just one of those extra bits of wibble that just get ignored.