GB number plate curiosity

[PhilipRhayader]

Thanks for all the replies. From them, I think we can deduce that:

a) DVLA does not routinely issue reg plates with matching last letters of the two seperate letter sectors

Simple logic tells me that if only 23 letters are used only 1:529 plates would have the same 2nd and 5th letter.

While out yesterday, I saw two examples - one P and one M. The only reason I saw them was because I was on a lengthy return bus trip so had time to look at the passing number plates.

 

[Bald Rick]

Simple logic tells me that if only 23 letters are used only 1:529 plates would have the same 2nd and 5th letter.

While out yesterday, I saw two examples - one P and one M. The only reason I saw them was because I was on a lengthy return bus trip so had time to look at the passing number plates.

Now my statistics education is nudging 3 decades old, but I’m reasonably sure that your simple logic is wrong. Whilst there are indeed 529 combinations of two letters from a population of 23, there are also 23 different combinations which have the same letter pair within that 529 (ie AA BB CC DD etc) So it’s 1:23.

Or rather it’s 1:24, as the 5th letter has a population of 24 possibilities, therefore there are 552 combinations, 23 of which have the same letter pair.

 

[Crossover]

Brilliantly, or possibly scarily, the banner advert at the top of this thread (for me) is now from “Speedyreg.co.uk”

Can google ads detect numberplates in a thread and thus advertise accordingly?

I can well imagine it can scan the contents of the page and advertise accordingly - the current ad at the top of the page is for a Toyota car (so semi-related) whilst the bottom one is something IT related (something I use this machine for a lot!)

 

[talltim]

Why do they even bother with having codes for where cars are registered?

 

[krus_aragon]

Why do they even bother with having codes for where cars are registered?

Historically, it would have been a lot easier for each registration centre to issue it's own personal set of codes (with a unique prefix) than to try and co-ordinate things nationwide: without a modern centralised computer system how do you know what number to issue next, and make sure nobody else is currently issuing that same number? You could phone a particular office of the civil service every time to ask what the next (unallocated) number is. Imagine the volume of calls at the switchboard! Far simpler to allocate each office a block of numbers and let them allocate them in their own time, with no threat of duplication. And rather than keep a ledger of which office has been allocated numbers 3000-3099, 3100-3199, etc, it'd be easier still to allocate a permanent prefix to each registration centre.

As an interesting counter-example, in Ontario (Canada) license plates are allocated to a driver, not to a vehicle. When you sell a vehicle, you remove the plates and keep them (possibly transferring them to a new vehicle).

 

[GB]

Why do they even bother with having codes for where cars are registered?

I am sure it was touted when first introduced that it would make it easier to identify a vehicle in the event of an accident/incident...I don't know if thats the actual reason though.

 

[GusB]

Why do they even bother with having codes for where cars are registered?

Historically, it would have been a lot easier for each registration centre to issue it's own personal set of codes (with a unique prefix) than to try and co-ordinate things nationwide: without a modern centralised computer system how do you know what number to issue next, and make sure nobody else is currently issuing that same number? You could phone a particular office of the civil service every time to ask what the next (unallocated) number is. Imagine the volume of calls at the switchboard! Far simpler to allocate each office a block of numbers and let them allocate them in their own time, with no threat of duplication. And rather than keep a ledger of which office has been allocated numbers 3000-3099, 3100-3199, etc, it'd be easier still to allocate a permanent prefix to each registration centre.

As an interesting counter-example, in Ontario (Canada) license plates are allocated to a driver, not to a vehicle. When you sell a vehicle, you remove the plates and keep them (possibly transferring them to a new vehicle).

From what I've read, prior to 1974 vehicle registrations were issued by county and borough/burgh councils, with responsibility then passing to the VROs (vehicle registration offices). There must have been some central body overseeing which codes were allocated to which council, otherwise it would get a bit chaotic - I presume this would have been the Ministry/Dept of Transport.

 

[krus_aragon]

From what I've read, prior to 1974 vehicle registrations were issued by county and borough/burgh councils, with responsibility then passing to the VROs (vehicle registration offices). There must have been some central body overseeing which codes were allocated to which council, otherwise it would get a bit chaotic - I presume this would have been the Ministry/Dept of Transport.

Yes, for "registration centre" in my post you can substitute "council office" or whichever department was relevant. The key point I was trying to make is that once you decide that Anglesey is allocated EY, that council can then get on with issuing EY1, EY2, etc. without having to worry about what numbers any other council is issuing. Without the prefix codes, and working with a simple progression of numbers, things would have been impractical.

 

[90019]

There was no problem with the issue of SN08 plates the following year...

Almost all of the SN08BYx plates are on Lothian Buses - BYA to BYV (minus BYN) are on 910-925, while BYW*, BYY and BYZ are on 35-37.

SN08BYN has never been on anything, and BYX is on a Range Rover.


*No longer at Lothian.

Q plates are issued when the age or identity of the vehicle is in doubt. Kit cars and unique one off shed builds are a good example of this.
Generally imports are given an age related plate if the age of the vehicle can be confirmed, if not then a Q plate may be issued.

They're also issued for stolen/recovered vehicles where the VIN has been removed so the age can't be verified.

 

[etr221]

From what I've read, prior to 1974 vehicle registrations were issued by county and borough/burgh councils, with responsibility then passing to the VROs (vehicle registration offices). There must have been some central body overseeing which codes were allocated to which council, otherwise it would get a bit chaotic - I presume this would have been the Ministry/Dept of Transport.

Yes, registration was done by county and county borough councils (and equivalents in Scotland) - see http://www.metadyne.co.uk/CarReg.html for some history (and his document from there). Originally codes were allocated by the Local Government Board, the Ministry of Transport was only formed in 1919. My understanding was that originally registration had to be with Council within whose area the vehicle was kept, and re-registration was needed if this changed.

 

[Ianno87]

Now my statistics education is nudging 3 decades old, but I’m reasonably sure that your simple logic is wrong. Whilst there are indeed 529 combinations of two letters from a population of 23, there are also 23 different combinations which have the same letter pair within that 529 (ie AA BB CC DD etc) So it’s 1:23.

Or rather it’s 1:24, as the 5th letter has a population of 24 possibilities, therefore there are 552 combinations, 23 of which have the same letter pair.

In Statistics terms, fairly sure you're right - about 1 in 23.

It's probability based on meeting two conditions, but having prior knowledge about one of them. Given you know the second letter, therefore the probability of the fifth letter falling in a certain way is suitably increased.

Anyway, guess who's been spending the last 48 hours looking a car registrations...

 

[Smethwickian]

Probably not relevant, but on the old system (XXX nnnX and Xnnn XXX) the 2nd and 3rd XX in the XXX part of the plate was a 2 letter code for an area of the UK, I don't actually know if it was where the car was registered or sold. I know that Durham was VK. I still see the VK in the new system too and still wonder if it is still the case.

For several decades, the registrations of all Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co) vehicles contained the HA lettering for vehicles registered in Smethwick, the company's chief traffic offices being in Bearwood Road in the Bearwood area of the town for many years.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's (in some cases) logic to which letters are given to which region. All Y* numbers are Yorkshire, with YA to YH (I think) being West Yorkshire/Leeds; the mid-range of second letters being Humberside; and the latter third of the second letters up to YZ given to Sheffield. So the Reading Buses listed early on were registered in Beverley or Sheffield apparently. The regional codes have led to some amusing stories: Ford UK were at one point perplexed that a much larger than expected number of sales of their smallest vehicle were going through a handful of dealerships in a certain area (think it was in either Cambs or Herts)... then it was realised that in that area, people could choose registrations that began with KA...

Some of the old ones made sense too. HD was a Huddersfield code, but then so were JX and VH which made less sense. Leeds had LS and WY (both make sense) but also UM, UA and WW.

 

[richw]

Ford UK were at one point perplexed that a much larger than expected number of sales of their smallest vehicle were going through a handful of dealerships in a certain area (think it was in either Cambs or Herts)... then it was realised that in that area, people could choose registrations that began with KA...

I had never thought about it, but my old Vauxhall Vectra started VX58....
I had a car that started KN which was first registered in Northampton, so presume KA was in a similar area?

 

[Bald Rick]

I had never thought about it, but my old Vauxhall Vectra started VX58....
I had a car that started KN which was first registered in Northampton, so presume KA was in a similar area?

All the codes are on the Wikipedia entry. KN is indeed Northampton, KA was Luton, later Borehamwood when Luton closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Historically, it would have been a lot easier for each registration centre to issue it's own personal set of codes (with a unique prefix) than to try and co-ordinate things nationwide: without a modern centralised computer system how do you know what number to issue next, and make sure nobody else is currently issuing that same number? You could phone a particular office of the civil service every time to ask what the next (unallocated) number is. Imagine the volume of calls at the switchboard! Far simpler to allocate each office a block of numbers and let them allocate them in their own time, with no threat of duplication. And rather than keep a ledger of which office has been allocated numbers 3000-3099, 3100-3199, etc, it'd be easier still to allocate a permanent prefix to each registration centre.

Indeed. A (long since departed) relative of mine was buying a new car in the late 50’s and was offered a choice of number plates 997 Cxx, 998 Cxx, 999 Cxx, or 1 Dxx (not xx obviously). By happy chance the 1 Dxx also spelt her initials. It’s still in the family now, although sadly not with me as it’s worth a fortune.

In Statistics terms, fairly sure you're right - about 1 in 23.

It's probability based on meeting two conditions, but having prior knowledge about one of them. Given you know the second letter, therefore the probability of the fifth letter falling in a certain way is suitably increased.

Anyway, guess who's been spending the last 48 hours looking a car registrations...

 

[richw]

All the codes are on the Wikipedia entry. KN is indeed Northampton, KA was Luton, later Borehamwood when Luton closed.

My current (old) car (its been replaced, and relegated to my work car) doesn't keep to the rule though, It was first registered in Barnstaple (presumably falls under the Exeter office, WA-WJ) but the first owner had a personalised plate from new. It was re-registered when we purchased it in 2010 (from the same Barnstaple dealer) but it has a Swansea prefix CU57***! Presumably re-registration is done via DVLA head office?

 

[MotCO]

There is some logic to the new XX letters. For example, Lx is London (obvious really), Gx is Kent (ostensibly for Garden of England!), Sx is Scotland, Yx is Yorkshire, Ex is East Anglia, Wx is presumably West, F is Fenlands(?) etc. Not sure why K is Nottingham and not Kent.

 

[bb21]

K is the only one in the original allocations (Northampton and Luton) that did not have a meaning, possible because they ran out of ideas. Nottingham had F allocations (allegedly for Forest and Fens).

 

[Bald Rick]

There is some logic to the new XX letters. For example, Lx is London (obvious really), Gx is Kent (ostensibly for Garden of England!), Sx is Scotland, Yx is Yorkshire, Ex is East Anglia, Wx is presumably West, F is Fenlands(?) etc. Not sure why K is Nottingham and not Kent.

F is Forest (as in Nottingham, or Sherwood, take your pick) and Fens (for Lincolnshire), K is effectively Home Counties north, nominally Kettering, but also the Keynes of Milton. As mentioned earlier, it’s all explained on the Wikipedia site.

 

[bb21]

F is Forest (as in Nottingham, or Sherwood, take your pick) and Fens (for Lincolnshire), K is effectively Home Counties north, nominally Kettering, but also the Keynes of Milton. As mentioned earlier, it’s all explained on the Wikipedia site.

Oh, they finally managed to fabricate a meaning for the K then?

 

[Ianno87]

Oh, they finally managed to fabricate a meaning for the K then?

I always thought there was officially no reason for it (unlike every other area), but happens to coincide with the K of Milton Keynes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh, they finally managed to fabricate a meaning for the K then?

Someone had to have it. No doubt back in the mid 90s there was a registration mark working group at the DVLA that’s considered various options, and one of them had had a bad experience in Milton Keynes, so said “they can have the ‘king K”

 

[Bald Rick]

I always thought there was officially no reason for it (unlike every other area), but happens to coincide with the K of Milton Keynes.

As it happens, my mum used to work for DVLA, and it was definitely Kettering, albeit unofficially.

(She wasn’t on the registration mark working group... I made that up).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There is some logic to the new XX letters. For example, Lx is London (obvious really), Gx is Kent (ostensibly for Garden of England!), Sx is Scotland, Yx is Yorkshire, Ex is East Anglia, Wx is presumably West, F is Fenlands(?) etc. Not sure why K is Nottingham and not Kent.

IIRC all the new local identifiers have some significance except the K series for Northampton and Luton... Buses magazine suggested it stood for "{K}nowhere"

Incidently Nottingham is in the F series being part of "Forest and Fens"

 

[Warwick]

Historically, it would have been a lot easier for each registration centre to issue it's own personal set of codes (with a unique prefix) than to try and co-ordinate things nationwide: without a modern centralised computer system how do you know what number to issue next, and make sure nobody else is currently issuing that same number? You could phone a particular office of the civil service every time to ask what the next (unallocated) number is. Imagine the volume of calls at the switchboard! Far simpler to allocate each office a block of numbers and let them allocate them in their own time, with no threat of duplication. And rather than keep a ledger of which office has been allocated numbers 3000-3099, 3100-3199, etc, it'd be easier still to allocate a permanent prefix to each registration centre.

As an interesting counter-example, in Ontario (Canada) license plates are allocated to a driver, not to a vehicle. When you sell a vehicle, you remove the plates and keep them (possibly transferring them to a new vehicle).

I believe that it's the same in the U.S.

 

[Warwick]

There is some logic to the new XX letters. For example, Lx is London (obvious really), Gx is Kent (ostensibly for Garden of England!), Sx is Scotland, Yx is Yorkshire, Ex is East Anglia, Wx is presumably West, F is Fenlands(?) etc. Not sure why K is Nottingham and not Kent.

L = London (Stanmore/Sidcup/Wimbledon)
A = Anglia (Norwich/Ipswich/Peterborough
M = Manchester/Merseyside (Liverpule)
B = Birmingham
N = North (Stockton/Newcastle)
C = Wales (Bangor/Swansea/Cardiff)
O = Oxford
D - Deeside (Chester/Shrewsbury)
P = Preston (Carlise/Preston)
E - Essex (Chelmsford)
R = Reading
F = Forest and Fens = Nottingham/Lincoln
S = Scotland (Glasgow/Edinburgh/Inverness/Dundee)
G = Garden of England (Maidstone/Brighton)
T = Scotland (when above offices have run out of allocations)
H = Hampshire/Dorset (Nournemouth/Portsmouth)
V = Severn Valley = (Worcester)
K = Bedfordshire/Northamptonshire (Luton/Northampton)
W = West of England (Truro/Exeter/Bristol)
Y = Yorkshire (Sheffield/Beverly/Leeds)

There you are, now you know.

Edit. Since posting this I have discovered that there is a J prefix. During my whooping it up in Bournemouth for the weekend I saw a rather nice little Toymotor MX5 with a JC prefix. I have been unable to ascertain where J is allocated to. I suspect that it is like the Scottish T in that it is issued when an allocation is exhausted.

 

[ian1944]

Some of the original codes could be matched to the locality, e.g. BN for Bolton and HD for Huddersfield, most had no such reason, but there were a few with a subtle connection. CU was a South Shields (Roman Caer Urfa) plate; TS was Dundee and said by some to commemorate a philanthropist of the time, Tom Shaw, who supposedly once gave every schoolchild in the city a satchel - doesn't sound much individually, but it used to be a desperately poor place (as late as the 70s, children with genuine ingrained dirt, not just that day's patina, could be seen).

 

[GusB]

Some of the original codes could be matched to the locality, e.g. BN for Bolton and HD for Huddersfield, most had no such reason, but there were a few with a subtle connection. CU was a South Shields (Roman Caer Urfa) plate; TS was Dundee and said by some to commemorate a philanthropist of the time, Tom Shaw, who supposedly once gave every schoolchild in the city a satchel - doesn't sound much individually, but it used to be a desperately poor place (as late as the 70s, children with genuine ingrained dirt, not just that day's patina, could be seen).

Interesting that you should mention the TS plate for Dundee. Until 1974 RG was issued in Aberdeen and, in the years I spent living there, the Lord Provost's limo was registered RG 0. I often wondered if this had any connection with Robert Gordon, the philanthropist after whom RGIT (later RGU), and Robert Gordon's College were named.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Thanks for all the replies. From them, I think we can deduce that:

a) DVLA does not routinely issue reg plates with matching last letters of the two seperate letter sectors

b) no one knows why, but suspect it may be because they are withheld to sell as cherished reg marks

c) this wasnt generally known by many people.

It's definitely b). For example, my initials are FKU. It is, apparently, quite common for someone buying a vanity plate for them to want FU68 FKU.

And c) is also correct.

And the correct term - in my head - is Vanity Plates, for they are used to sate and display one's vanity.