ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[SC43090]

I was quite amused by the description of knackered stock with manual doors and in the livery of a previous Toc as 'operating in classic mode'

Next time my wife complains about the bed room still having the same crappy peeling woodchip wallpaper and threadbare carpet that it had when we moved in five years ago, I'll just tell her that it's in 'classic mode'

Wandering down the shop in my oldest jeans, a band t shirt from the 90s and a well worn hoody: I'm just operating in classic mode.

I cannot wait for these knackered trains with the manual doors to start operating in the previous toc livery as operating in classic mode... But before i get on board i will have to look out my classic mode late 1970s / 1980s clothing with my classic mode bag as well,, also have try to find some classic mode hair as well as iv'e not got a lot left.......
SC43090

 

[najaB]

As said, the above would be true of an IEP running on electric power, but I seriously doubt it would match the acceleration of an HST if it was running on Diesel power. Particularly North of Edinburgh.

That is on diesel power. On electric there is no comparison at all, the 800s move like **** off a shovel. They're rated for and easily hit 140mph.

 

[najaB]

That's all good and well, but the performance issues North of Edinburgh are for gradients, as opposed to outright top speed.

Which is good because the Class 80x have plenty of low-end grunt on diesel, it's high speed they struggle with (they have difficulty exceeding 115mph without a following wind).

 

[paul1609]

If it was true. As noted above, while LNER might want to keep HSTs it would not be because of performance issues off the wires. GWR's operational experience has shown than there's no performance deficit where line speed is under 110-115mph.

The class 800s are faster off the mark and hit 60 to 70mph sooner than a HST, which doesn't claw back the advantage until somewhere north of the century mark.

Most (all?) of LNER's off the wires running is at 100mph or less.

To bring things (almost) back to topic, that's why the 2025 version of the five-car Class 800 is likely to replace the HSTs once the wires have reached Perth and Dundee (or points north thereof).

I've not got much experience of the HSTs north of Edinburgh but I'd expect the 800s modern three phase motor to be able to put down far more power at the wheel than a HST. Look at 10-15 mph faster on many of the steep gradients I reckon. its only where current actual speed (rather than line limit) is in excess of 70 mph where the lack of installed engine power means they'll be slower. I'd guess that's not a very high percentage of the routes north of edinburgh.

 

[GrimShady]

As said, the above would be true of an IEP running on electric power, but I seriously doubt it would match the acceleration of an HST if it was running on Diesel power. Particularly North of Edinburgh.

If that turns out to be true it just shows that there's no one solution to fit all and multiple units are not as great as everyone seems to think they are.

 

[fgwrich]

There is a lower density layout, but it isn't much different, I think it has 2 more tables per coach but otherwise the same.

I’ve been meaning to post about these for a while but I’ll do it now.

So, FGW had two different types of HST set.

The High Density sets where some to most of the standard Mk3s had 2 - 4 tables were created to cater for the Bristol and Cardiff markets, where those two routes effectively require more seats than tables as both routes have become high speed commuter routes.

The Mini Buffets where then added to the High Density sets after a trial in 2009, whereby the full sized Buffet Car was removed from these sets and to start with left out to improve performance - the second phase I believe was then where another TS was added in to the rakes. After a trail with an at seat trolley service was ultimately deemed unsuccessful, an additional mini Buffet was then created and added into the sets - thus giving 6 Standard + 2 First Class.

The Low Density sets were supposed to remain on the Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea/Carmarthen services. These had more tables per coach, although not as much as the original layout of course. I believe they gained the majority of the 405XX converted coaches as well which features around 8 tables per standard class coach, although some have ended up in the former high density sets as well after the reduction in first class. These are a combination of converted ex Mk3 TRFBs and Trailer Firsts.

Sadly though First never really seemed to bother to keep the sets to the intended routes, so it was and still is common to see mini Buffet former HD Sets run down to Penzance. It’s even worse now with the many mixed formations out there!

They are comfortable and I’ve never had an issue with the FGW interior, although sadly First in their usual wisdom has allowed them to start looking a little tired in their recent years with the introduction of the far less superior 800 fleet. And like some on here I like the Grammer seats as well. I’ve also had trips from Paddington to Penzance in them without any issue and ScotRail customers should already be used to them with the Inverness 158s. They will be perfectly adequate as a temporary measure though and I’m sure will be just as popular as the refurbished sets - especially if they gain a mix of Mk3 sets and keep them to key commuter times.

 

[jingsmonty]

I wonder if they may have changed them all the same, as when I Google for a seating plan I get older ones with two layouts and a newer one with only one. But as I said the only substantial difference is an additional table - one per side on high density, two on low. With regard to legroom the density is a bit of a misnomer as both have decent legroom.

If you look at the GWR seating plan

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/safety-information/hst-seating-plan.pdf

then it shows no Standard Class coaches as having more than two tables, and some have no tables at all. I've never seen more than two.

That's pretty much my experience too - 2 table bays per side. I'd agree the legroom is decent too (& I'm reasonably tall) - it's those awful grammer seats themselves I don't like

 

[Highland37]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scotrail-passengers-face-train-overhaul-delay-1-4807140

The boss is confirming that they will have to use unrefurbished sets because of the delays. No indication when the the next set is expected.

There is a garage in Inverness with a guy from Iraq and his assistant from Poland. I nominate them for the team at Wabtec...

 

[chuff chuff]

Probably right - I'm just passing on a rumour from someone a bit higher up than me....not claiming that it's true (or if I even believe it myself). There have been IEPs up in Inverness on test (a plain 'GWR' green class 802 9 car & a 2x5 car plain white Class 800).

Heard that rumour as well and god the railway loves a rumour.Don't if it's true or where it started but definitely going round.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

I was quite amused by the description of knackered stock with manual doors and in the livery of a previous Toc as 'operating in classic mode'

Next time my wife complains about the bed room still having the same crappy peeling woodchip wallpaper and threadbare carpet that it had when we moved in five years ago, I'll just tell her that it's in 'classic mode'

Wandering down the shop in my oldest jeans, a band t shirt from the 90s and a well worn hoody: I'm just operating in classic mode.

I cannot wait for these knackered trains with the manual doors to start operating in the previous toc livery as operating in classic mode... But before i get on board i will have to look out my classic mode late 1970s / 1980s clothing with my classic mode bag as well,, also have try to find some classic mode hair as well as iv'e not got a lot left.......
SC43090

Anyone under the age of 40 treats me like I permanently operate in classic mode, regardless of what I happen to be doing or wearing.

 

[Stoney1979]

So, it's a mere 11 weeks until the 09/12 timetable change.

Things are going to have to happen pretty quickly! Of course assuming that the previously cited news article is correct that x9 unrefurbished sets, plus the refurbished set, will be fully up and running and ready to serve the new timetable.

 

[GrimShady]

How long did it take them to do one set?

 

[Journeyman]

On another thread there was a discussion as to why TOCs are going for new stock, much to Porterbrook's chagrin - this, the 442s, the 769s, all over budget/delayed or not fit for purpose. Might give a hint as to why more TOCs aren't going for the turds on the Rosco's books, however furiously the latter try and polish them.

This is looking worse and worse by the day. Whoever made the decisions on budget, specs and timescales for this needs shooting.

 

[sprinterguy]

How long did it take them to do one set?

Twelve months, near as much: First vehicles for conversion dropped off at Wabtec on 1st September 2017, first completed converted rake delivered to Scotrail on 17th August 2018.

This is probably as good a place as any to mention that it took Wabtec 16 months to complete 16 vehicles in total for Crosscountry, Scotrail and GWR. At the time that the first Crosscountry and Scotrail sets were released from works, they had another 16 months to convert a further c.200 vehicles ahead of the DDA deadline. They might want to think about upping their pace a bit...

To be fair, I'd consider most pre-refurb HST stock to still be an upgrade. Unless it's the GWR high-density layout, in which case, ugh. Do we know *which* GWR coaches they are?

If the allocations shown on abrail are correct, then the unrefurbished sets currently with Scotrail are:

https://www.abrail.co.uk/lhcsstockformations.htm

HA01 40207 42207 42047d 44015 (Initial training train)
HA02 40210 42033 42035 44011
HA03 40208 42209 42288d 44066
HA04 42325 42267d 42269 42574

Most of those vehicles aren't high density - Those three that are I've denoted with a "d" after the number.

 

[InOban]

I suspect that the lawyers and accountants are arguing over whether, and how much, additional finance will be necessary to deliver the contract, given that the work involved has turned out to be much more extensive than Wabtec envisaged. In the meantime they're not going to be paying overtime to rush the job.

 

[jingsmonty]

Twelve months, near as much: First vehicles for conversion dropped off at Wabtec on 1st September 2017, first completed converted rake delivered to Scotrail on 17th August 2018.

This is probably as good a place as any to mention that it took Wabtec 15 months to complete 16 vehicles in total for Crosscountry, Scotrail and GWR. At the time that the first Crosscountry and Scotrail sets were released from works, they had another 15 months to convert a further c.200 vehicles ahead of the DDA deadline. They might want to think about upping their pace a bit...

If the allocations shown on abrail are correct, then the unrefurbished sets currently with Scotrail are:

https://www.abrail.co.uk/lhcsstockformations.htm

HA01 40207 42207 42047d 44015 (Initial training train)
HA02 40210 42033 42035 44011
HA03 40208 42209 42288d 44066
HA04 42325 42267d 42269 42574

Most of those vehicles aren't high density - Those three that are I've denoted with a "d" after the number.

There is an HA05 set as well, currently operating the Inverness training train

 

[sprinterguy]

There is an HA05 set as well, currently operating the Inverness training train

Ah, I assume that'll be the following one then:

HA05 42558 42032d 42010d 41022

I was erring on the side of caution as I wasn't sure how many sets were in Scotland at present and it wasn't shown as confirmed on the abrail site. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TEW]

The refurbished HST was at Haymarket this morning, appeared to be on a run to show it off to invited guests. There were lots of ScotRail staff hanging around, one holding a sign saying "ScotRail HST Stakeholders Event". Was working one of the usual training paths, the 1059 to Dundee.

 

[Mingulay]

I suspect that the lawyers and accountants are arguing over whether, and how much, additional finance will be necessary to deliver the contract, given that the work involved has turned out to be much more extensive than Wabtec envisaged. In the meantime they're not going to be paying overtime to rush the job.

Is it such a radical suggestion that before they quoted and priced and timed the job they should have taken a rake for dismantling and refurbishing to better understand the anatomy of the carriages and thier condition? Too much like common sense. ? Too much common sense for transport Scotland or scotrail to insist on such homework before placing the order on which thier plans were based? Once again they assume all will go on time and commit to hand back existing trains on time.

 

[Southsider]

Is it such a radical suggestion that before they quoted and priced and timed the job they should have taken a rake for dismantling and refurbishing to better understand the anatomy of the carriages and thier condition? Too much like common sense. ? Too much common sense for transport Scotland or scotrail to insist on such homework before placing the order on which thier plans were based? Once again they assume all will go on time and commit to hand back existing trains on time.

A lot of money to expend before an order is received.

 

[Mingulay]

A lot of money to expend before an order is received.

It’s called investment and research and due diligence. It’s not a luxury or lavish indulgence. It should have been a pre requisite to winning the business in the first place. Any sensible customer relying on timescales should have insisted on a proven product delivery.

Would you buy a house from a builder doing it for the first time?? Would you trust a surgeon doing heart valve replacement from a surgeon skilled in brain surgery ? You want some evidence of an ability to do the job. It’s not like there is no precedent for delays on such projects. Why oh why keep making the same schoolboy errors? Customer is as much to blame as supplier.

 

[92002]

It’s called investment and research and due diligence. It’s not a luxury or lavish indulgence. It should have been a pre requisite to winning the business in the first place. Any sensible customer relying on timescales should have insisted on a proven product delivery.

Would you buy a house from a builder doing it for the first time?? Would you trust a surgeon doing heart valve replacement from a surgeon skilled in brain surgery ? You want some evidence of an ability to do the job. It’s not like there is no precedent for delays on such projects. Why oh why keep making the same schoolboy errors? Customer is as much to blame as supplier.

Strangely enough the other Wabtec factory at Kilmarnock did a lot of work on these very coaches for Great Western.

They don't appear to be getting considered to speed up the process by doing some there.

Must be a Wabtec thing but doing nothing doesn't improve the poor passenger experience.

 

[gordonjahn]

It’s called investment and research and due diligence. It’s not a luxury or lavish indulgence. It should have been a pre requisite to winning the business in the first place. Any sensible customer relying on timescales should have insisted on a proven product delivery.

Would you buy a house from a builder doing it for the first time?? Would you trust a surgeon doing heart valve replacement from a surgeon skilled in brain surgery ? You want some evidence of an ability to do the job. It’s not like there is no precedent for delays on such projects. Why oh why keep making the same schoolboy errors? Customer is as much to blame as supplier.

Put adequate assumptions (“the only work carried out will be the conversions specified”) and exclusions (“no further maintenance or repairs will be undertaken / further repairs or maintenance will be subject to a variation”) in the offer and it’s job done.

Someone will be responsible- it might even be the RoSCO picking up some of the bill, but when time’s short, make the offer and if the trains aren’t up to (even if you KNOW they won’t be up to it) then it’s a commercial game that follows.

Standard stuff. Why would any company take the risk on the condition of someone else’s asset?!?

I think Wabtec are doing the work because they do have the track record - and they probably won’t lose out, despite the delays.

The only way to do the “dismantle and check” thing first would have been to have a separate contract then open bids again based on assumed condition or others. It wouldn’t have been quick and may not have made any difference to deliverability or risk.

 

[BRX]

Would you buy a house from a builder doing it for the first time??

If you have come upon a failsafe method for engaging a builder where all significant risk of time or cost over-run is eliminated do please let me know!

 

[Southsider]

It’s called investment and research and due diligence. It’s not a luxury or lavish indulgence. It should have been a pre requisite to winning the business in the first place. Any sensible customer relying on timescales should have insisted on a proven product delivery.

Would you buy a house from a builder doing it for the first time?? Would you trust a surgeon doing heart valve replacement from a surgeon skilled in brain surgery ? You want some evidence of an ability to do the job. It’s not like there is no precedent for delays on such projects. Why oh why keep making the same schoolboy errors? Customer is as much to blame as supplier.

Sorry, I didn’t realise you had inside knowledge of the commercial agreements between the various parties; particularly with regard to risk management. Any more detail you can share with us? Also, I didn’t realise Wabtec were new to this game.

 

[Mingulay]

Sorry, I didn’t realise you had inside knowledge of the commercial agreements between the various parties; particularly with regard to risk management. Any more detail you can share with us? Also, I didn’t realise Wabtec were new to this game.

If they are using unforeseen problems then you need anything other than common sense to conclude a test trial of doing the job is a prudent procedure to do before you commit and a prudent customer should make the appropriate enquires.

Do you feel these delays are reasonable and something that deserves no scrutiny or criticism by passengers ?

 

[Journeyman]

Do you feel these delays are reasonable and something that deserves no scrutiny or criticism by passengers ?

A lot of the fanboys think the HSTs are so good that they won't hear any criticism of this project. It's come as no surprise to me that 40-year-old trains are knackered, and the whole thing is turning into a right mess. I think I've seen enough to say this project has turned into an expensive farce, and was a serious mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of the fanboys think the HSTs are so good that they won't hear any criticism of this project. It's come as no surprise to me that 40-year-old trains are knackered, and the whole thing is turning into a right mess. I think I've seen enough to say this project has turned into an expensive farce, and was a serious mistake.

Would it be viable to stick in a follow-on order for 5-car sets of Mk5As and 68s, perhaps, if things have got that bad? They would basically offer the same thing to passengers but have the advantage of being new, and possibly of being suitable for using on electrified lines in future simply by substituting an electric locomotive. Then for the time being operate unmodified HSTs on a derogation until they arrive.

The issues of daytime passengers on the Caledonian could be further solved by adding on one or two more TSOs and operating it as a separate ScotRail service tagged onto the Sleeper.

 

[GrimShady]

A lot of the fanboys think the HSTs are so good that they won't hear any criticism of this project. It's come as no surprise to me that 40-year-old trains are knackered, and the whole thing is turning into a right mess. I think I've seen enough to say this project has turned into an expensive farce, and was a serious mistake.

I agree it has descended into a total farce, the delivery time is ludicrous!

While I don't regard myself as an HST fanboy I do like the MK3 environment.

 

[Mingulay]

A lot of the fanboys think the HSTs are so good that they won't hear any criticism of this project. It's come as no surprise to me that 40-year-old trains are knackered, and the whole thing is turning into a right mess. I think I've seen enough to say this project has turned into an expensive farce, and was a serious mistake.

I don’t have any issue with the project in terms simply that refurbishing old trains is destined to fail. Just that if you are going to do it. You try it first before everyone commits to it in terms of cost timing and delivery. I like the hst trains and we need more capacity. If they had 6 rather than 3 car 170 units as standard on the inter city routes north modified for better baggage and a catering car I would be equally content. Perhaps that would have been an easier job.