ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[bspahh]

An HST with 43140 and 4-5 coaches just rolled into Ely platform 1.
I don't know if its this although it says its cancelled.

http//www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O45672/2018/10/08/advanced

 

[scotraildriver]

There may be more low density coaches kicking about somewhere, but set HA05 (training train) has a mixture of both. I'm not sure if they have been sorted out in any particularly organised way, but the 'classic' sets will need a fair amount of remarshalling - maybe the high density coaches will be removed? Also, set HA01 has a Buffet First class, which will have to be swapped for a full First Class coach. So maybe some movement of coaches imminent. Maybe the high density coaches will be sent to Wabtec 1st? I'm not sure if the unrefurbished coaches in Scotland currently are in addition to the stock on hand at Wabtec for refurbishment, or will they have to be rotated out & sent down?

I assume each set will need a TGS coach too to run in "classic" mode. Think there's only 2 around just now.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not sure if the unrefurbished coaches in Scotland currently are in addition to the stock on hand at Wabtec for refurbishment, or will they have to be rotated out & sent down?

At least the first couple of unrefurbished sets that were sent to Scotrail, HA01 training set amongst them, are formed of the spare vehicles left over after vehicles for conversion had been dropped off at Wabtec, so are in addition to the stock destined for refurbishment - Hence the presence of Buffet Firsts and TGS vehicles, which of course are not part of the refurbishment programme.

Some of the other rakes I'm not sure about as they're formed of primarily Trailer Standards and the odd Trailer First, so could be Wabtec bound at some stage. I don't know which vehicles are earmarked for lease by Scotrail.

 

[jingsmonty]

I assume each set will need a TGS coach too to run in "classic" mode. Think there's only 2 around just now.

Yes, that's right- I forgot about the TGS coaches....

 

[jingsmonty]

At least the first couple of unrefurbished sets that were sent to Scotrail, HA01 training set amongst them, are formed of the spare vehicles left over after vehicles for conversion had been dropped off at Wabtec, so are in addition to the stock destined for refurbishment - Hence the presence of Buffet Firsts and TGS vehicles, which of course are not part of the refurbishment programme.

Some of the other rakes I'm not sure about as they're formed of primarily Trailer Standards and the odd Trailer First, so could be Wabtec bound at some stage. I don't know which vehicles are earmarked for lease by Scotrail.

Not sure either - probably a good thing the coaches aren't, in the main, going back to Wabtec - think the old buffet/first class (1 of these on HA01) will be going to make razor blades...what a waste.

 

[CC 72100]

I assume each set will need a TGS coach too to run in "classic" mode. Think there's only 2 around just now.

Unless some work has been done (which I strongly doubt), then yes, a TGS will be required to enable the D/G buzzer to sound in the cabs (and possibly more!)

 

[Journeyman]

Not sure either - probably a good thing the coaches aren't, in the main, going back to Wabtec - think the old buffet/first class (1 of these on HA01) will be going to make razor blades...what a waste.

Why is it a waste? The vehicles are all at least 35 years old.

 

[jingsmonty]

And building brand new coaches, whilst binning perfectly good coaches isn't a waste then?

 

[cactustwirly]

And building brand new coaches, whilst binning perfectly good coaches isn't a waste then?

If you're talking about the Mk3s then they are not "perfectly good", some of them have some serious corrosion issues.

 

[connormill]

And building brand new coaches, whilst binning perfectly good coaches isn't a waste then?

Overall I'm a fan of the HST+Mk3 stock, but I wouldn't say they were in "Perfectly Good" condition.

If they were we wouldn't be running this far behind schedule on delivery of refurbished sets would we?

 

[jingsmonty]

And building brand new coaches, whilst binning perfectly good coaches isn't a waste then?

I wasn't referring to the actual condition of the coaches, more the fact that they are 'perfectly good' coaches as far as ride comfort & ambience go. I'd hardy expect coaches that are a fair age NOT to have some corrosion issues, but they are still very good quality coaches to travel in (the equal of anything produced nowadays - apart from the slam doors & lack of CET tanks). Better than Mk4s, for example. Actually looks nicer internally than a TPE Mk5a, in my humble (and subjective) opinion. I've travelled in the !st class/buffet coach on the training train & it is still a very pleasant way to travel.

I'd rather travel in a refurbished Mk3 than most of the rolling stock that came after it (just compare, for example, a Mk3 with a Class 158 - the 158 is, approximately, 15+ Years newer, but which would be nicer to travel in? Just saying). They are designed to be structurally strong (constructed as a monocoque = strong bodyshell).

Think the point I was trying to make has been misunderstood somewhat.....

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

Refurbished set on this, has the media run been shifted to today // some sort of other non-public run?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/M19570/2018/10/08/advanced

 

[absolutelymilk]

Refurbished set on this, has the media run been shifted to today // some sort of other non-public run?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/M19570/2018/10/08/advanced

What makes you think it is a non-public run? It is described as Express Passenger in RTT and had a four minute stop at Dundee, which suggests that passengers used it.

 

[SC43090]

An HST with 43140 and 4-5 coaches just rolled into Ely platform 1.
I don't know if its this although it says its cancelled.

http//www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O45672/2018/10/08/advanced

The formation is as follows

43140

44086

42129

42200

41158

43035


SC43090

 

[47271]

I've tried the high density seating on the training train - whilst it isn't in any way suitable for long term use on Scotrail, the legroom is fine & extra seats would be welcome on the busiest trains on the HML. The refurbished sets are needed ASAP though.

I'm thinking 12.53 Inverness to Edinburgh & the afternoon Northbound one (probably from Waverley too). I could see the 17.42 Edinburgh to Inverness being an HST in Dec, as, currently, this is the same unit that works the 12.53 South. Could be an 'out & back' working, both for the train crew & the HST set? (Inverness crew to Perth & back).

That would be a logical diagram to start HST working on the HML - I could also see the 06.50 Inverness to Edinburgh being an HST too. This is a limited stop service & is one that business people may use, instead of the LNER Highland Chieftain (07.55 departure). Not sure when that would work back though...

Have heard that the HML will have 2x HST services from Dec....

Great if they appear on the HML in December.

Are you sure that the set used on the early evening Edinburgh-Inverness goes back at lunchtime, it always used to be the 0650, the super early one is a 158 after all? The 1253 is the one desperately in need of capacity north of Perth, the 0650 really isn't as busy as a few people on this forum make out, it was no more than one third full this morning for example. It was only at Kirkcaldy that it really filled up, and that was only because of the school holidays.

Increasing capacity on the 1742 from Edinburgh would be fine, but again this is a train that's only seriously overcrowded as far as Kirkcaldy.

If I was them I would be concentrating on afternoon trains on the HML, they're the ones with the real capacity problems.

 

[Darandio]

What makes you think it is a non-public run? It is described as Express Passenger in RTT and had a four minute stop at Dundee, which suggests that passengers used it.

None of that suggests passengers used it at all.

 

[absolutelymilk]

None of that suggests passengers used it at all.

I asked Scotrail on Twitter and they also said it wasn't a public run.

 

[scotraildriver]

It's a "dress rehersal" for the press run on Wednesday.

 

[Stoney1979]

It's a "dress rehersal" for the press run on Wednesday.

It seems to me to be quite a risk for SR to fanfare the HST at this stage, effectively saying "This is what things are going to be like folks! But, erm, at the moment we've only got one of them - and we have no idea when the rest will turn up".

Any journo worth his/her salt will hopefully be asking some probing questions about what's going on.

 

[Stoney1979]

I take it that seat reservations won't work when the HSTs are introduced, due to 3 differing seat layouts being in operation (Refurbished, GWR & High Density GWR)? Also, wonder how the catering will work, given that the 'Refurbs' & 'Classics' will be working on interchangeable diagrams? Scotrail are hardly going to keep fresh food stock on hand, just in case it's a refurbished set that turns up!

Staffing may not be such an issue, as, apparently, all HSTs are supposed to have 2x catering staff on each set (either 2x trolleys or 1 trolley & 1 buffet).

The point about reservations will be interesting to observe. Surely it's going to be very, very difficult to manage - what with all the different trains and figurations running around. That, even if it does work, apart from the time and practicalities of crew collecting old reservation labels and putting new ones on many more seats than they do now.

 

[mde]

Any journo worth his/her salt will hopefully be asking some probing questions about what's going on.

The usual journo who covers such stories already sources his information from here…

With all the complaints about lack of information from a small but vocal minority here it seems it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario - if Wabtec aren't delivering to schedule then the operator / rosco will no doubt be pursuing remedies from them, meaning, there's only so much washing of said dirty linen that can be done in public.

 

[jingsmonty]

Great if they appear on the HML in December.

Are you sure that the set used on the early evening Edinburgh-Inverness goes back at lunchtime, it always used to be the 0650, the super early one is a 158 after all? The 1253 is the one desperately in need of capacity north of Perth, the 0650 really isn't as busy as a few people on this forum make out, it was no more than one third full this morning for example. It was only at Kirkcaldy that it really filled up, and that was only because of the school holidays.

Increasing capacity on the 1742 from Edinburgh would be fine, but again this is a train that's only seriously overcrowded as far as Kirkcaldy.

If I was them I would be concentrating on afternoon trains on the HML, they're the ones with the real capacity problems.

No, I'm not sure about any of this - just the opinions of myself & a few colleagues! The Class 170 on the 12.53 is currently diagrammed to work back to Inverness on the 17.42 - would be a natural & logical working for an HST, enabling a return to Inverness for any maintenance required.

You're right about the 06.50 not being that busy, we just think as it's seen as an important working, as it's the one that will attract the 'business types' - it's a limited stop (between Inverness & Perth, at least), it's always been seen as an important 'express' service - if the catering are short, you can guarantee that another train will do without a trolley & the 06.50 will have one!

 

[cactustwirly]

No, I'm not sure about any of this - just the opinions of myself & a few colleagues! The Class 170 on the 12.53 is currently diagrammed to work back to Inverness on the 17.42 - would be a natural & logical working for an HST, enabling a return to Inverness for any maintenance required.

You're right about the 06.50 not being that busy, we just think as it's seen as an important working, as it's the one that will attract the 'business types' - it's a limited stop (between Inverness & Perth, at least), it's always been seen as an important 'express' service - if the catering are short, you can guarantee that another train will do without a trolley & the 06.50 will have one!

But the HSTs are maintained at Haymarket are they not?

 

[Stoney1979]

The usual journo who covers such stories already sources his information from here…

With all the complaints about lack of information from a small but vocal minority here it seems it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario - if Wabtec aren't delivering to schedule then the operator / rosco will no doubt be pursuing remedies from them, meaning, there's only so much washing of said dirty linen that can be done in public.

True, although a rehearsed and staged fan-fare media launch won't provide, in itself, any new information about what is actually going on - unless SR announce some new details during, or alongside, it.

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

The HST appeared to have gotten slower and slower throughout the entire journey, eventually making it to Aberdeen 51L. Admittedly the 10L start from Edinburgh didn’t help that, but still not a great sign of things to come for the run on Wednesday.

 

[dmkc]

Just seen this on the twitters (not mine)
https://twitter.com/railcamlive/status/1049359193159999493

That looks a bit fruity!

 

[Highlandspring]

The HST appeared to have gotten slower and slower throughout the entire journey, eventually making it to Aberdeen 51L. Admittedly the 10L start from Edinburgh didn’t help that, but still not a great sign of things to come for the run on Wednesday.

It was following 1A73 from Dundee; A73 stops at Carnoustie, Arbroath, Montrose and Stonehaven. Nothing to do with the performance of the HST.

 

[marks87]

Just seen this on the twitters (not mine)
https://twitter.com/railcamlive/status/1049359193159999493

That looks a bit fruity!

If I’m not mistaken, that’s a (back-to-front) TGS behind the power car. A missing window and different colour door gives it away.

Presumably on its way up to go into an unrefurbished set for passenger use.

 

[47271]

No, I'm not sure about any of this - just the opinions of myself & a few colleagues! The Class 170 on the 12.53 is currently diagrammed to work back to Inverness on the 17.42 - would be a natural & logical working for an HST, enabling a return to Inverness for any maintenance required.

You're right about the 06.50 not being that busy, we just think as it's seen as an important working, as it's the one that will attract the 'business types' - it's a limited stop (between Inverness & Perth, at least), it's always been seen as an important 'express' service - if the catering are short, you can guarantee that another train will do without a trolley & the 06.50 will have one!

Sorry, I got you the wrong way round, I thought you meant that the 1742 north comes back as the 1253 south.

I quite agree on the 0650, and I'm one of those business types at Kingussie! As an aside, it also always collects a surprising number of that sort of person at Dunkeld, usually skipped by the expresses, it does make me wonder if this station is a little underserved at present?

 

[Stoney1979]

Sorry, I got you the wrong way round, I thought you meant that the 1742 north comes back as the 1253 south.

I quite agree on the 0650, and I'm one of those business types at Kingussie! As an aside, it also always collects a surprising number of that sort of person at Dunkeld, usually skipped by the expresses, it does make me wonder if this station is a little underserved at present?

I'd certainly like to see more of the new HST services stop at Dunkeld. It has a very big catchment area of "business type" punters who no doubt have dealings in the central belt and further south quite a lot. It certainly can't be beaten for convenience off the A9 (and the, currently, free parking).

So many are driving just now, including myself, but if/when the train service gets better I'm sure that'll change.