How much fare evasion is there and are barriers the way to go?

[daccer]

There has been much discussion recently about revenue protection and the benefits of gating stations. I was wondering if anyone had any anecdotal evidence on how much fare evasion really goes on.

I am also wondering what type of evasion is the core problem. it seems to me that gates will only work if a passenger has no ticket at all. However they cant determine if an AP ticket has been used on the wrong train or if a railcard was meant to be used. It would seem that the only foolproof way of preventing all of the forms of fare evasion is to have thorough on train checks and manual checks at stations. Gates may look great on paper but i am not sure of how effective they may really be. I am also wondering if not having RPI's etc on every train and major station is not a false economy that can be easily rectified - employ more people!

If you have ever travelled without the correct ticket (whether deliberately or not) you can have some input on what i believe is an increasingly important issue in these tight economic times.

 

[GB]

Barriers are a good visual and physical deterent for those that would otherwise travel without any kind of ticket. As you say, they wont stop someone with an inncorrect ticket which is where manual inspections come in.

Manual inspections hav their own draw backs as you couldnt reasonably expect a guard to do a thorough job on a crowded train, the same goes for manually checking every ticket at a terminus as that would just create over crowding issues.

I dont think there is a "perfect" answer to the issue of fare evasion.

 

[Oswyntail]

DB seem to manage with on-train checks and no barriers. But, there again, I know nothing about how effective it is:roll:

 

[Lampshade]

I go red with anger every time I hear about TOCs installing ticket barriers. I'm fiercely opposed to them as I believe TOCs can, and do, achieve similar results by other means without branding everyone a fare dodger. Under British law you are innocent until proven guilty, ticket barriers reverse this, we don't live in Soviet Russia

 

[SqUaShIe P]

I think on train checks are better than having barriars, how ever, that would depend on the type of train and the stopping pattern. its fine for a guard to get through a hauled set on the east coast between kings cross when you've got longer gaps between stations, its slightly harder if you've got like an 8-car 321 that stops every 2 minutes. fare eveders would simply jump in the opposite set to the guard/rpi (like what happens on the dlr)
barriars arnt bad, but as daccer said, they can't ensure AP tickets are on the right train, and they don't check railcards. also, when you have a total lemon manning them, they let ANYTHING thing through anyway. I once showed a guy a stratford a post-it AND HE LET ME THROUGH THE MANUAL GATE!
I think there should be a combination of both barriers and on train checks, but I do think if your gonna have barriars, then all stations should have them and not just some of them.

 

[tbtc]

Under British law you are innocent until proven guilty, ticket barriers reverse this, we don't live in Soviet Russia

...what a strange way to look at it...

Ticket barriers are a necessary part of life, especially at busy stations. They don't solve the issue completely - no one tool would - but a practical help.

What I'd really like is hard evidence of whether bringing in barriers (1) means fewer people travelling and/or (2) means an increase in tickets purchased (especially for very short distances).

As a fare paying traveller, I resent paying for those who don't bother contributing

 

[NJTom]

in the old days ... there were a lot more ticket barriers .. and ticket checking ..... just doesn't seem like a cost effective solution .. which is why it was largely phased out in the 90s. A more cost effective solution is giving guards financial incentives to penalise fare dodgers once on the trains.

 

[paul1609]

I'm told that the ticket barriers at Chichester, West Sussex (no 122 in the NR stations list) increased ticket revenue by £1.3 million pa. That works out at nearly 50p for every exit or entry to the station.

 

[GB]

I go red with anger every time I hear about TOCs installing ticket barriers. I'm fiercely opposed to them as I believe TOCs can, and do, achieve similar results by other means without branding everyone a fare dodger. Under British law you are innocent until proven guilty, ticket barriers reverse this, we don't live in Soviet Russia

I take it you have never been on a commercial plane on holiday then?

When all is said and done, if you have a valid ticket to travel then whats the problem with barriers?

 

[NJTom]

I agree ... when you consider all the expensive hurdles TOC's have to jump over .. they need to ensure every pax pays the fare. Period .. but I do think that this is what train guards are for. Penalise them on the train.

 

[me123]

I am a supporter of ticket barriers which, in Glasgow, have proven more effective than a line of people who take longer and often don't even check what's on the tickets. They work to reduce fare evasion; and they do work. More and more people have to buy tickets when the barriers are in place and, ultimately, there's less fare evasion, deliberately or otherwise I've always questioned the ridiculous view that you should not need barriers because the guard can do it; let's face it, even the best guards won't get every passenger on every train.

They work at big stations. But at smaller stations, they're not economically or practically feasible. To take an extreme example, Golf Street would be a ridiculous place to put barriers because you would have to recruit staff to man these barriers and sell tickets.

They're a useful tool in tackling fare evasion, but under no circumstances should they replace on train staff, who still have a vital role.

 

[Lampshade]

I take it you have never been on a commercial plane on holiday then?

When all is said and done, if you have a valid ticket to travel then whats the problem with barriers?

Why did I know that argument would come up eventually?

Railway stations are not airports.

It's the same as supporting the proposed government ID cards, "oh if you've got nothing to hide then what's the problem?" That really isn't the point, why should we have them in the first place? Another problem, the main problem, I have with them is that they prevent people not travelling accessing the platforms when they have a legitimate reason.

Do a quick Google search and you'll find plenty of objections to them and if they're so great, why are Sheffield and York united in opposition against them?

 

[LouJ]

I would love barriers to be in place.I pay £130 per month season ticket and hate to see other people not paying a single penny because the conductor cannot collect all the fares. Barriers protect those who pay at the expense of those who fare dodge. Its as simple as that!

 

[thelem]

Under British law you are innocent until proven guilty, ticket barriers reverse this

I take it you have never been on a commercial plane on holiday then?

Or been to a cinema. Or bought alcohol when not much older than 18. Or used a key to get into your front door. Or entered a password to login to this site.

Do I need to go on?

 

[GB]

Barriers are nothing like the governments ID scheme. For a start, barriers do not contain or collect sensitive and personal data and you are not obliged to carry one round with you either.

Im very much aware that railway stations are not airports (but thanks for pointing that out to me:roll the point was that you have to go through masses of procedures and checkpoints to get both on the plane and through the airports yet this has been the norm and has been accepted for years.

Yet the TOCs try and do some good to stop (or a least minimise) fare evasion, which ultimately affects all paying travellers, yet there is always someone to complain....they just cant win can they.

If your so against barriers then why do you accept physical checks by train crew when it amounts to the exact same thing!

 

[Mojo]

The reason they are opposed to in Sheffield is because of the totally reasonable concern that it will cut off a very useful walking route to the tram stop and a University. Similarly for York, the station is also a through route to the National Rail Museum and other things that side of the line.

 

[Lampshade]

I concede this argument.

I just don't like them, pure and simple, happy now?

 

[GB]

I concede this argument.

I just don't like them, pure and simple, happy now?

You dont have to like them, you just have to understand why they are there and what potential benifits they can bring.

 

[Mojo]

Surely it depends exactly where this figure comes from... LOROL claim they have reduced fare evasion to 3%, but any figure banded about as to the actual level of fare evasion will be a fine balance between appearing high enough as to justify the existance of certain individuals but low enough so it seems as if they are doing a good job.

 

[ukrob]

What frustrates me the most is when there are both staff and barriers but people still evade fares.

I always hold a valid ticket when I do this - but I will frequently show an invalid ticket at Liverpool Central manned barrier - do you know how many times they have picked up on it and stopped me?

Not once. Out of upwards of 100 times.

Even if I use it in the barrier and it is rejected, the staff will ask to see it and still let me through. It is a total joke.

The barrier at Lime Street is a total joke too, you can show them anything to enter it, and anything to exit unless it is a certain member of staff who just creates queues and makes the situation worse.

 

[Lampshade]

They keep leaving the barriers open at Manchester Oxford Road on Sunday nights, packed TPE from Edinburgh arrives and everyone just walks out hock:

 

[Mojo]

Not uncommon unfortunately. London Midland have just spent £millions installing barriers round here and they leave them open during the rush hours because there are so many people and too few barriers it's dangerous, and come 6.30p.m. they're open as it's time for the staff to go home!

 

[Helvellyn]

I am also wondering what type of evasion is the core problem. it seems to me that gates will only work if a passenger has no ticket at all. However they cant determine if an AP ticket has been used on the wrong train or if a railcard was meant to be used.

But ticket gates can be set up to reject certain tickets, for example all tickets with certain railcards, tickets to/from a certain station, child tickets etc. Why do this? It's a way of checking people have the types of tickets they should and can identify fraud. I believe thet recently set the barriers at Waterloo to reject all Child tickets one morning peak, and had Revenue check the age of everyone holding them. The results were interesting!

The best way to tackle fare evasion is to use barriers and staff together, both at the station, stations without barriers and on train. Barriers don't stop fare evasion, they just change the game.

As to how fare evasion there is, I would have to say very much more than people think.

 

[tbtc]

I believe thet recently set the barriers at Waterloo to reject all Child tickets one morning peak, and had Revenue check the age of everyone holding them. The results were interesting!

Nice one!

Things like this just go to prove how good a tool the barriers can be

 

[yorkie]

They keep leaving the barriers open at Manchester Oxford Road on Sunday nights, packed TPE from Edinburgh arrives and everyone just walks out hock:

It's not Northern's problem is it? And it would make no sense for TPE to put barrier staff hanging around waiting for this train to arrive and then causing a queue. If the guard is unable to get through that train, then TPE are better off putting more staff on it, than manning a barrier at a Northern station hanging around waiting for it, and then people could just say they boarded at Bolton if the guard wasn't able to gome through since Preston or wherever anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But ticket gates can be set up to reject certain tickets, for example all tickets with certain railcards, tickets to/from a certain station, child tickets etc. Why do this? It's a way of checking people have the types of tickets they should and can identify fraud.

Nah, it's a way of letting them be waved through like the 'bad old days' of humans doing the job rather than being on the dole! That's what happens at every barrier I've ever seen. If Waterloo did something different as a one-off and actually stopped people, well that's very much the exception. Child tickets are also quite a different issue altogether and are probably the only type of discrepancy these people pick up on.

On the other hand, some guards have been so used to people over 15 pretending to be 15, that they probably think 15 year olds look older than they do. . I've heard of 17/18 year olds regually be offered child tickets, or given them without question. People in their 20s have been offered child tickets. I witnessed it on NET, for example.

 

[Lampshade]

It's not Northern's problem is it? And it would make no sense for TPE to put barrier staff hanging around waiting for this train to arrive and then causing a queue. If the guard is unable to get through that train, then TPE are better off putting more staff on it, than manning a barrier at a Northern station hanging around waiting for it, and then people could just say they boarded at Bolton if the guard wasn't able to gome through since Preston or wherever anyway.

Well it sort of is Northern's problem as they get ORCATS revenue from stations between Preston - Manchester; notwithstanding all the other trains from Liverpool/Southport that the barriers are left open for.

Speaking of Preston, G4S are there quite often now on the platform 1/2 footbridge and they are the most unenthusiastic people about their job in the world. I went through the other day off a packed TPE and they were just like "yep, yep, yep, yep" leaning against the side of the bridge :???:

 

[Old Timer]

in the old days ... there were a lot more ticket barriers .. and ticket checking ..... just doesn't seem like a cost effective solution .. which is why it was largely phased out in the 90s. ....

Staff on ticket barries were being phased out from the late 1980s in an attempt to reduce costs NOT because they were not cost effective.

As an SM I actually started to operate barrier checks at my stations and in one case the revenue increased so much that I was able to employ a second shift, and still show a cost saving.

The withdrawal of barrier checks and staff was supposed to have been countered with increased on-train checks, TTIs, and ad-hoc full station checks. This was never ever going to be a feasible option as we still had "Guards" and "Commercial Guards". Commercial guards worked the InterCity services whereas the ordinary guards worked the local services where the real fare evasion issues were.

Revenue protection thus came down to us at station and line level. My favourite would be to put TTIs at the adjoining unmanned stations and then report for Prosecution anyone offering up a short fare, because clearly they had not joined there

After a period we saw the booking office revenue start to steadily increase as word got around, and people started to see TTIs en-masse on occasions descending on stations and on trains in the Peaks, something never heard of for years. We went on like that for a while until the local PTE decided that we were contravening its Policy on open stations and like many other lines within the PTE area, our suburban trains became an extension of the playground with ticketless travel by kids in the evenings and at weekends and fraudulent travel by adults rife during the week.

And all this was being done by local Labour members of the PTE who were more interested in fighting a Political battle than looking after the interests of the local rate payers who were actually footing this nonesense. :roll::roll:

Indeed it got so bad that scrotes and ne'er do wells were opening and putting the doors on trains on first catch which were then sometimes pulled open and struck by passing trains. This created its own problems with trains being canabalised for doors to keepthe remainder running.

The response from the self-same (Labour) councillors was that we should buy more doors :roll::roll:

 

[jon0844]

Things like this just go to prove how good a tool the barriers can be

Depending on the tools manning them.

Hatfield will stop child tickets and/or YPRC and they would have equally interesting results.

The gates there have been very effective, but they're closed far too early (8pm or even earlier sometimes) and people are still jumping the high fence, after the regular evaders that are quite agile have found a few areas where you can get over quite easy.

 

[scrapy]

Id rather have automatic barriers at Manchester Picc/Vic anyday rather than G4's although it can be funny seeing what you can get away with showing them. (whilst also having a valid ticket) They've let me through with a Boots advantage card and Tesco clubcard and a pocket timetable before. I'm sure the fare evaders would rather G4 stay in place.

On the subject of child tickets has there ever been a national 'under 16' card to enable youngsters to prove their age? Whilst some local authoritys issue them e.g Greater Manchester and TFL it would make sense for a national card which could be issued through schools, or could be a new type of railcard for 11-15 (or 17 if in education) year olds which is available free from stations offering 50% off. The child ticket could be made for 5-10 year olds only.

 

[Lampshade]

Id rather have automatic barriers at Manchester Picc/Vic anyday rather than G4's although it can be funny seeing what you can get away with showing them. (whilst also having a valid ticket) They've let me through with a Boots advantage card and Tesco clubcard and a pocket timetable before. I'm sure the fare evaders would rather G4 stay in place.

I actually can't stop laughing

I tried showing them a platform ticket once, they looked as if I'd just handed them a dead baby, then told me after much discussion with his colleagues that I could have just asked to go onto the platform, it's free. Also I was going to Salford in September from Victoria, I was on my way through and the guy asked to see my ticket, I showed it him and it clearly said 'SALFORD CRESCENT' on it, he just said "Glasgow, ok" and let me through hock:

G4S are fine if the station cannot accommodate automatic barriers, Victoria is so spread out that barriers just wouldn't work, what with the car park/Arena exit and the bay platforms, same at Piccadilly although not to the same extent.