How much fare evasion is there and are barriers the way to go?

[Matt Taylor]

Indeed, every ticket tells a story and they all say where they were bought, when they were bought and how they were paid for. A few simple questions sorts the wheat from the chaff.

 

[90019]

I sometimes use my local Stagecoach bus service, and the stop I use is in a separate fare stage to the rest of the stops in the area I live. It's surprising how many times I'll buy a ticket, be told the price and then have to ask them if they've changed the fare stage, as it drops the price by 30p!

This is what I like about Lothian, it's just one set fare for a single to anywhere else (up to the terminus) on that route

 

[Mojo]

Since we seem to have gone off on a tangent about buses, isn't it time (in urban areas at least) that we moved away from this Dickensian structure of fare stages named after pubs or the post office that closed about 20 years ago?

I think the system that works round here is quite good (not that I wish to confess to using buses), but you either ask for "one twenty" (a £1.20 'short hop' which varies between about 1km and 2.3km) or a "one seventy" (a £1.70 'maximum fare'). The only problem is lack of clarity as to where exactly the £1.20 fare gets you; a journey I have done in the past has the destination "Westfield Ave" printed on the ticket, but the bus stop sign doesn't say the bus stop is called "Westfield Ave." Are bus passengers now supposed to be geographical experts?

 

[GB]

The only problem is lack of clarity as to where exactly the £1.20 fare gets you

Thats kind of a big problem isnt it?

a journey I have done in the past has the destination "Westfield Ave" printed on the ticket, but the bus stop sign doesn't say the bus stop is called "Westfield Ave." Are bus passengers now supposed to be geographical experts?

The driver will have an element of route knowledge so he should be expected to know where "Westfield Ave" actually is.

 

[jon0844]

We have flat-rate fares on many buses, which is £1.20 single or £1.50 return.

To be honest, people are now used to paying this even if they're only going - quite literally - a couple of stops. Some stops are a reasonable distance apart, but people are seemingly happy to pay £1.20 whether it's 2 stops or 20.

On that basis, I wonder if there could ever be a flat-rate charge on some trains, even if it means paying more to go just one or two stations along, but with cheaper travel further afield.

It's not as if everyone will go further simply because they can - most people, quite obviously, only go to where they want to go!

 

[ukrob]

Back onto railways, and the plans for barriers at York have been scrapped.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8359164.stm

 

[GB]

but objectors said they would be unsightly

That just sums everything up!

It maybe a listed building but gates do no alter or transform the appearance of the building as far as I can see and can easily be uninstalled at a later date if needs really be.

How are the railways meant to move foward when there is so much pathetic red tape.

 

[Lampshade]

I like to think my objection letter to both NXEC and the DfT influenced the decision but... meh.

 

[yorkie]

How are the railways meant to move foward when there is so much pathetic red tape.

Barriers at York would be a step backward.

 

[GB]

Barriers at York would be a step backward.

If there is a genuine reason why the barriers have been dropped I would understand, but if they have been dropped due to certain people calling them "unsightly" then in my opinion that is rediculous.

 

[jon0844]

They'll be gating the other stations (something Elaine was trying to do when she was at FCC to protect ALL platforms at King's Cross for when FCC services used platforms 1-7) so I do wonder why York is so special?

 

[Daimler]

They'll be gating the other stations (something Elaine was trying to do when she was at FCC to protect ALL platforms at King's Cross for when FCC services used platforms 1-7) so I do wonder why York is so special?

Because of the through access to the NRM, surely?

Interestingly, the man who was in charge of such things at the time of the installation of the (hugely expensive) bridge to the NRM - only a few years ago - was none other than one Richard Bowker, who, of course, as boss of NXEC wanted to deny people access to the aforementioned bridge.

 

[philjo]

In addition to preventing use of the footbridge through the station to access the NRM (the footbrdieg extensionfor the NRM was partly funded by GNER) & the intrusion in the grade 1 listed building at York, I think that part of the problem is that the design submitted would be unworkable.

They were just planning to put a line of barriers up & leave existing services where they were.

Therefore, on the main station entrance/platforms 3/4 side:

the Ladies toilets would be outside the barriers, but the Gents would be inside the barriers.
Likewise, left luggage would be inside the barriers but I think one of the main waiting rooms would be outside.
York is also the destination for a large number of charter services, whose tickets would not work in the barriers anyway. Plus factor in Grand Central - you can purchase their tickets on board so these passengers would need to be able to access the platform without needing to posesing a ticket before boarding the train.
All other services - Northern, TPE, East Coast & XC in theory have on board ticket checks anyway.

FCC at Kings Cross is a separate case, as all their services are DOO so no provison for regular on-board ticket checks - so they need to do their checks at stations.

 

[Lampshade]

There was a LOT of objection at York compared with other places, probably more PR than anything else.

 

[yorkie]

Interestingly, the man who was in charge of such things at the time of the installation of the (hugely expensive) bridge to the NRM - only a few years ago - was none other than one Richard Bowker, who, of course, as boss of NXEC wanted to deny people access to the aforementioned bridge.

Unless he has personally stated he was in favour of barriers, we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt. It was the DafT who put barriers in the franchise specification, and if NX wanted to win the franchise, then they had to agree with it basically. The Government wants the TOCs to get the blame, when it's them who are for inconveniencing customers. However the Government don't want bad publicity for DOR/East Coast, so are not persuing this any more.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

I think barriers do work. It is very very rare to find anyone on trains between Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras without a valid ticket because the barriers are always closed and well staffed, by properly trained staff who DO check correctly. Which is the way it should be.

Sorry, only come across this but, yea, ok.

I won't say it's the staff's fault probably the training. I'm not saying they don't check properly but don't always know what they're looking at.

 

[Mintona]

Sorry, only come across this but, yea, ok.

I won't say it's the staff's fault probably the training. I'm not saying they don't check properly but don't always know what they're looking at.

I meant the staff at St. Pancras and Ebbsfleet are well trained, I can't really comment for anyone else.

 

[spoony]

A necessary evil I think, although at stations like Durham I would prefer station staff checked the tickets as barriers look terrible and detract from the character of the station. Just look at fare evasion on the Tyne and Wear metro, there we have no barriers and no on board staff as an example. You can go months without having your ticket checked by anyone on that system. Really annoys me that I pay my £75 pass each month and some scumbags are getting away with paying nothing

 

[blacknight]

A necessary evil I think, although at stations like Durham I would prefer station staff checked the tickets as barriers look terrible and detract from the character of the station.

Just done the same to Newark Northgate & the glass & stainless steel don't fit in to well in a Grade 2 listed building, its bit like Ikea flat pack being plonked in a grand stately home.

 

[monkey]

^^yeah newcastle too. not in operation yet, but I dunno how they expect to truly seal it off, and it looks unsightly too...

 

[Helvellyn]

Yet look at Waterloo, where the installation of the barrier gates changed the whole appearance of the station for the better - you can actually see the trains on the platform again.

Gatelines can be flexible in terms of how they can be installed, but I think it needs to be thought out and consideration given to how it impacts on the station as a whole when nothing has been there.

 

[djw1981]

I totally agree.

The fact that the police were called for an excess of about £5 (assuming CDR, no railcard) which is a matter of routeing dispute - which is surely a civil matter - where the routeing guide was not produced as evidence to back up the RPIs claim, demonstrates how ludicrous these barriers are, where a customer who is doing nothing wrong at all has the police called for no valid reason, yet any dodger could easily get through with a couple of cheap tickets at either end to get past the barriers. That's why barriers are flawed: harrassment of paying customers and letting dodgers dodge. Madness! No wonder the DfT are so keen...

The railways should not be able to call the police over trivial contractual matters such as a difference of agreement over routeing. That's an abuse of power.

I read it to assume that the police were called to do with the breach of the peace caused by the verbal agro.

 

[Lampshade]

Yet look at Waterloo, where the installation of the barrier gates changed the whole appearance of the station for the better - you can actually see the trains on the platform again.

My experience of Waterloo pre-gates is limited, why could you not see the trains? Although I have to agree, since the gates were installed it's not been a stampede to get off the platform, they sort of filter everyone through pretty well.

Gatelines can be flexible in terms of how they can be installed, but I think it needs to be thought out and consideration given to how it impacts on the station as a whole when nothing has been there.

That good sir, is entirely sense.

 

[Helvellyn]

My experience of Waterloo pre-gates is limited, why could you not see the trains? Although I have to agree, since the gates were installed it's not been a stampede to get off the platform, they sort of filter everyone through pretty well.

The entrance to the platforms was cluttered, with a mixture of concessions and food outlets. There were also narrow entrances, with metal shutter gates that were shut prior to departure.

The new gates have greatly improved the flow of passengers, both off trains and onto them.