How much fare evasion is there and are barriers the way to go?

[Daniel]

As to wether or not they work:

The following is advertised on a poster at Tottenham Hale LU Station

London Underground & National Express East Anglia operated a joint revenue protection exercise at Tottenham Hale Tube & Rail station during the morning peak of 2nd November.

The results of the check are as follows:

42 Penalty Fares Issued.

£1050.00 in fines collected.

17 People prosecuted for fare evasion.

Expect to be checked.

.

All good, except for the fact the area they check leads to the gates anyway. So I would imagine those without tickets would double-up or jump the gates.


With regards to barriers being staffed, LU staff are told not to intervene if they see someone double-up/vault the gates/whatever, as it's not our job - it needs to be a revenue control inspector, who then can't touch anyone anyway.

 

[WillPS]

Barriers only work in places where the station is secluded and there is a real problem with people taking the mick, for example: Blackpool North. I totally understand why Northern installed barriers there, and they do a good job.

Then there's places like Sheffield - where barrier installation is not only hard to achieve (the steps on to platforms 2-8 are already a bottleneck at peak times, barriers will make this worse) but also cuts off a key city connection. And finally there's Nottingham, where a right of way means that if you go in through the main doors, there's a barrier. If you join on the footbridge (tram, car park) there is no barrier - surely it wont take fare dodgers long to work out there is a 2 minute walk around the corner still barrierless?

 

[bengley]

Barriers are a good visual and physical deterent for those that would otherwise travel without any kind of ticket. As you say, they wont stop someone with an inncorrect ticket which is where manual inspections come in.

Manual inspections hav their own draw backs as you couldnt reasonably expect a guard to do a thorough job on a crowded train, the same goes for manually checking every ticket at a terminus as that would just create over crowding issues.

I dont think there is a "perfect" answer to the issue of fare evasion.

What good would an incorrect ticket be if you want to get out of the station at your incorrect destination. If you have the wrong ticket, you don't get out and have to go back.

 

[blacknight]

I think on train checks are better than having barriers, how ever, that would depend on the type of train and the stopping pattern. its fine for a guard to get through a hauled set on the east coast between kings cross when you've got longer gaps between stations, its slightly harder if you've got like an 8-car 321 that stops every 2 minutes. fare eveders would simply jump in the opposite set to the guard/rpi (like what happens on the dlr).

Not that simple as majority of fare evasion on ECML are local journeys being made for instance Durham to Newcastle for night out, If onboard they are half way there better by far to ensure they have paid at least someting rather than giving a freebie .
Again its down to passenger loading on a particular service. Guard is in a no win position try to do a full ticket check & passengers that have previously been checked will complain-go the other way & ask for tickets from last station stop you are reliant on the honesty of person to come forward to buy a ticket, or hide in the crowd & save the fare for the first drink.
Putting barriers at stations to avoid losses on short journeys as to be the way forward but it was a backward step in taking what few TTI that were on route off to man automated gates, for barriers to be effective & for paying passengers to have confidence in the system put in place as to be reliant on quality of the staff manning gates.
Their ticketing knowledge which previous posts have shown to be limited to say the least, this is because agency staff with limited training have been put rushed into place but given time this will improve as knowledge is gained passed on.

 

[daccer]

I think it is a sad indictment on today's society that we have to spend so much money collecting fares which should be paid automatically by anyone with a sense of decency and morality. However I do have a couple of general points to make.

Firstly I really believe if we simpliied the fares system we could do away with a lot of the inadvertant fare dodging from people making innocent mistakes.

Secondly how much does a RPI earn - are these guys so expensive and difficult to employ that we can't afford to have anymore. I simply can't see the economic case for not having thorough and comprehensive ticket checking facilities on every train. It would take very few excess fares for the RPI to cover the cost of themselves.

One last thing, i know looking at a ticket needs a great deal of training and supervision for station staff but is it beyond the wit of man to organise the odd spot check at busier stations that dont have barriers utilsing station staff.

What needs to be addressed is the perception that travelling for free on the trains is easy. A few surprise ticket checks late at night when the evader thinks they have got away with it will soon change the image of the railways beings open to fraudsters. When all is said and done we dont fly for free and buses dont let us on without paying, why are trains so different?

 

[jon0844]

Well, bendy buses do let you travel for free. I am sure that the ease of fare evading on these has helped get some people used to the idea of not paying for travel.

Gates and regular (or random) checks hopefully gets people used to the idea that they are quite likely to be caught. Thinking that getting caught once in a blue moon is okay because you've avoided paying for the last 6 months is not a good way of changing the mindset of people.

What's worse is the fact that a lot of these people are simply 'joining the club' because they see others doing it, and wonder why they should pay to subsidise others, so it can escalates quickly. Those random checks can stop people going with the flow in the first place.

 

[Old Timer]

Daccer
A good post if I may be so bold as to say.

Picking up on a couple of points.

Today we have a Society which believes it is their right to pay little if anything for goods and services, which results in the manufacturing of many goods (and the provision of some services) being shipped abroad to Countries whose approach to employment conditions and pay is questionable to say the least. This obviously is to the detriment of our own Industrial base in the longer term as we have seen.

Rail travel can thus seem to be rather expensive when then compared to general retail prices.

It is not helped by the fact that a so called "pro Rail" Government has implemented Policies which are more anti-rail than any other Government since Barbara Castle was Transport Minister.

The relative costs of car travel have fallen, whilst rail fares have increased considerably since 1997. I would contend that opportunities to find cheap fares are not easy even for people with some knowledge of the Railway, testament to my recent need to seek advice to find a fare which was available just not readily visible.

In addition internal air travel has been given support to expand and benefits from VAT exemption on aviation fuel. This by a Government who claim to be Green but whose Policies are anything but.

As far as dealing with fare evaders, these people are THIEVES who have STOLEN (check the wording in the Theft Act).

There is a perception that fare evasion is a "victimless crime". This is not true, albeit there is no visible gain and no visible loss to anyone.

The loss of course is in the overall revenue which ultimately leads to fare rises, reductions in train size, de-staffing of stations, and booking offices.

In recent years the Courts have been pressurised in passing more lenient sentences for even violent crime, and now we learn there are plans afoot not to Prosecute people for some violent and anti-social offences :roll::roll:

The point here is that the Courts for all sorts of reasons, including ignorance and Political persuasion treat fare evasion as almost a trivial matter hardly justifying their attention.

It is only by concerted pressure by some TOCs and PTEs that Magistrates have been pushed to hold special sessions primarily setup to handle fare evasion Prosecutions.

Inevitably, any penalty has to be considered against those for violence and anti-social behaviour, which are now set ridiculously low.

 

[Mojo]

Well, bendy buses do let you travel for free. I am sure that the ease of fare evading on these has helped get some people used to the idea of not paying for travel.

TfL's statistics from Q1 2009/2010 say that fare evasion on bendy bus routes is at 8.7%.

 

[stut]

I would much rather have on-board checks than barriers, where practical. I realise that there are situations where barriers do make a positive
difference, but this is too often badly implemented.

First off, when there are far too few of them. Since 9-11 at King's Cross has been barriered, it can take ages to exit the platform. I've been in a
queue for over 5 minutes before - longer when there's a delay and two trains are in at once.

Secondly, many stations simply aren't designed for it. It's a shame to cut station facilities off from non-travellers. If I'm meeting somebody off
the train at Cambridge (I often do) then I can't get a cup of coffee or go to the loo. It's little things like that that make rail travel just that
little bit less pleasant all round.

Then, you may get them only partially implemented, making a mockery of the whole system. I've been down to Ipswich, again to meet people off the
train (including somebody who I wanted to help with luggage), and found the barriers wide open and unmanned. So I walked over, met them, helped
them, and got back to the gateline to find they were now operational. I started to explain, and they let me through unquestioningly (after just a
couple of words).

Badly implemented, and they inconvenience many, without actually deterring that much - it's incredibly easy to slip through a wide gate, or find your
way around the barriers in many stations.

Also from a safety/comfort point of view, I'd rather have more staff on trains anyway. Perhaps authorised to chuck played-out-loud mobiles out the
window

 

[moonrakerz]

The guard on the FGW service Brighton to Gt Malvern on Tues brought a smile to everyone's face when he walked through the train saying "any tickets from Westbury ?", then returned a few minutes later with "any fare dodgers from Westbury ?"

 

[Oswyntail]

Going back to basics:-
Why does anyone deliberately not pay a fare?

• Because they think they can get away with it
• Because they think it is too expensive
• Because it is easier not to buy a ticket

So:-

• Make it much more expensive to be caught (enforced large fines)
• Make fares cheaper (plenty of arguments for and against!)
• Convince people the alternatives are actually more expensive (publicity anti-road showing the true cost of motoring)
• Make road transport bear costs in the same way as rail (access charges per journey, etc)

However, barriers:-

• Are not suitable to all stations
• Are not suitable to all times of travel (peak hours)
• Are not flexible enough to cope with all the varieties of tickets

The latter two combine to encourage staff to "wave passengers through"
However, RPIs:-

• Are relatively expensive
• Are not suitable for all journeys (short distance between stops, non-corridor units)
• Can be in danger if working alone

We do not need to have checks on every journey. We do need to have sufficient checks to convince dodgers they are more likely to be caught than not. So:-

• Instal barriers where possible, but leave them open except for random check times
• Have random "flood" checks on the trains.
• Have random "flood" checks at unbarriered stations.
• Instal more ticket machines, and allow all sorts of tickets to be purchased on train
• Prosecute

Remember - the aim is not purely to catch dodgers. It is to ensure that those people travelling actually pay their correct fare.

 

[adc82140]

Barriers do not stop standard class ticketholders travelling in first class. This is a huge problem on FGW's lower Thames Valley (ie Turbo) routes. The trains are DOO, there are NEVER any RPIs on board. First class is pretty much unofficially declassified, and as a FC ticketholder this does annoy me.

The other morning there were four (yes count 'em) RPIs working the exit from platform 3 at Twyford. Firstly if you had a mind to, you could avoid them by using the new lift. Secondly, why four? They could have instead worked four seperate diagrams on board services.

 

[jon0844]

TfL's statistics from Q1 2009/2010 say that fare evasion on bendy bus routes is at 8.7%.

Not sure how they measure that, considering they have hardly any inspectors to cover buses - and so they must blitz only a handful of buses in any one day. As I don't believe they turn off the Oyster readers when they board, I bet a fair chunk of people suddenly rush to touch in their card.

I am always amazed that they don't turn off the validators so people can't scan as soon as they see the revenue team come on. You'd think they'd come on via all three doors, in some SWAT-team style raid, but that isn't quite the reality!

Does the new £50 penalty apply for buses?

 

[Helvellyn]

Nah, it's a way of letting them be waved through like the 'bad old days' of humans doing the job rather than being on the dole! That's what happens at every barrier I've ever seen. If Waterloo did something different as a one-off and actually stopped people, well that's very much the exception. Child tickets are also quite a different issue altogether and are probably the only type of discrepancy these people pick up on.

Certainly not a one-off on SWT. I'm not going to make assumptions on what other companies do, but I know SWT do various things at times to look at different types of fare evasion and fraud. Not as much this year following the restructuring, but it still goes on.

Oh, and how are people waved through when SWT doesn't have manual sidegates any more? You might still get let out of the WAG (Wide Aisle Gate) by a CSA after a ticket check, but you're usuaully not "waved through."


Oswyntail - good post, covering some of the finer details of Revenue Protection.

 

[Mintona]

I think barriers do work. It is very very rare to find anyone on trains between Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras without a valid ticket because the barriers are always closed and well staffed, by properly trained staff who DO check correctly. Which is the way it should be.

 

[Greenback]

Barriers are just one part of the abti fare evaders package. They are not suitable for some stations, as has been pointed out. We also need on train examinations, on very busy services there should be more than one member of train crew. Barriers should not be used as an excuse to not do on board checks.

Apart from vare evasion, barriers do play a part in stopping undesirables from hanging around platforms and toilets. The only trouble at my local large station is that sometimes the staff are only there until 1830 or 1900, after which the place becomes a bit of a dossers palace.

 

[Matt Taylor]

This morning I sold a pair of tickets to Gatwick, the passengers were not paying attention and walked away from the window before the tickets had been printed, by the time I caught up with them to hand them the tickets they were already on the platform having been ushered through the barriers 'sans billets' by an RPI with over over twenty years of experience.:roll:

What is the point in paying someone over £20K if they are not even checking to see if people have tickets?

 

[yorkie]

But you can gain access to the platforms at Gatwick without tickets as you can buy on board Gatwick Express, is that not why the RPI let them through?

If they paid by card I guess you could cancel their tickets. If not, I guess there's nothing you can do if they don't go back?

 

[paul1609]

Matt couldnt have been working at Gatwick theres no barriers there on any platform at Victoria theres no barriers on the Gat Exp platforms

 

[Proud Salopian]

What I find ridiculous are those stations which have automatic barriers/staff checking but you can walk another way onto the platforms without being checked! The ultimate example for me is Manchester Victoria. What's the point of having the staff checking the tickets at one location, when you can get to the platforms at least two other, unchecked, ways?!

On the subject of whether I agree with barriers - hell yes. Anything to stop fare evasion. Nothing more annoying sitting on a train knowing someone nearby obviously hasn't paid their fare. I pay mine - ALWAYS do* - so I expect everyone else to. They also tend to prevent non-travelling chavs and other delinquents from entering the platforms. It's another gripe of mine, and it's a problem at some of the unstaffed stations in rural Shropshire (Craven Arms jumps to mind), of being plagued by unruly yobs on the platforms, especially in the evenings.

*apart from sometimes hopping on and off the Metrolink in Manchester city centre! (Tut tut, naughty, I know..! :P )

 

[Helvellyn]

But you can gain access to the platforms at Gatwick without tickets as you can buy on board Gatwick Express, is that not why the RPI let them through?

Matt couldnt have been working at Gatwick theres no barriers there on any platform at Victoria theres no barriers on the Gat Exp platforms

Only platforms 13/14 have no barriers, these being the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria. All other platforms there are barriered.

Matt just said he sold two tickets to Gatwick. Didn't say where from though, did he! Might have been at Victoria to travel on Southern. Might have been any number of stations with barriers on the Southern or Thameslink routes. Even on another operator...

 

[Matt Taylor]

No, it was south of Havant although I don't want to identify it in case the RPI in question ends up in trouble.

Nevertheless the same thing happened today albeit thanks to a gateline person who, unfortunately, has never been trained correctly.

The visible presence of barriers alone is enough to increase ticket revenues, but to really crack down it requires fully trained staff who know what they are looking for.

An example of this was presented to me today, a guy buys a Barnham-London 'Any Permitted' ticket and arrives at Waterloo off a service from Portsmouth which had been non-stop Woking-Waterloo. The guy had missed a direct service from Barnham to Victoria and thus travelled Barnham-Havant and then Havant-Waterloo despite Havant not being a permitted route. An RPI queried it at Waterloo and was going to charge him the excess from Havant to Waterloo but the customer created a scene and the police were called. The police let him go on the basis that he had paid the correct fare and the RPI was not sure if the route was valid. I wouldn't mind if it was a one off but I had seen this guy try the same thing before so he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[Surreytraveller]

also, when you have a total lemon manning them, they let ANYTHING thing through anyway.

Either that or they abuse people with perfectly valid tickets.

 

[thelem]

An example of this was presented to me today, a guy buys a Barnham-London 'Any Permitted' ticket and arrives at Waterloo off a service from Portsmouth which had been non-stop Woking-Waterloo. The guy had missed a direct service from Barnham to Victoria and thus travelled Barnham-Havant and then Havant-Waterloo despite Havant not being a permitted route. An RPI queried it at Waterloo and was going to charge him the excess from Havant to Waterloo but the customer created a scene and the police were called. The police let him go on the basis that he had paid the correct fare and the RPI was not sure if the route was valid. I wouldn't mind if it was a one off but I had seen this guy try the same thing before so he knew exactly what he was doing.

I don't see what the big problem is here. You've got to admit that "Any Permitted" is a bit vague, and as a passenger I assume it means anything sensible, and therefore I would expect the quickest journey to ALWAYS be permitted, even if it aparently goes a silly route (an obvious example would be if you wanted to board at a minor station, it might be fastest to go the wrong way up the line in order to catch a fast train to your destination).

After a quick look at the times, the quickest Barnham - Waterloo service changed at Clapham and took 1hr42. The quickest Barnham - Havant was 18m and Havant - Waterloo 1h15, so 1hr33 if you assume no time to change. My point being, that going via Havant may be a sensible route, even if it is not a permitted route. At that point I think it is the responsibility of the railway to make it clear to the passenger (before purchase of the ticket) that the route is not permitted, or allow the passenger to travel. It seems the police agreed.

 

[yorkie]

... as a passenger I assume it means anything sensible, and therefore I would expect the quickest journey to ALWAYS be permitted, even if it aparently goes a silly route....

I totally agree.

The fact that the police were called for an excess of about £5 (assuming CDR, no railcard) which is a matter of routeing dispute - which is surely a civil matter - where the routeing guide was not produced as evidence to back up the RPIs claim, demonstrates how ludicrous these barriers are, where a customer who is doing nothing wrong at all has the police called for no valid reason, yet any dodger could easily get through with a couple of cheap tickets at either end to get past the barriers. That's why barriers are flawed: harrassment of paying customers and letting dodgers dodge. Madness! No wonder the DfT are so keen...

The railways should not be able to call the police over trivial contractual matters such as a difference of agreement over routeing. That's an abuse of power.

 

[Lampshade]

I believe someone was caught once with a Vauxhall - Waterloo season ticket and another season ticket from their starting station to the next stop (i.e. to get through the barriers at both ends). Back in August I travelled on SWT into Waterloo pretty much every day and not once was my ticket checked, barriers need to be teamed with on train inspections otherwise they're pretty much pointless.

 

[jon0844]

My season ticket has been looked at closely about once in six years (not so close to spot a forgery either!). It was never once checked at King's Cross (before the gates, but after FCC started regular checks), or they may have noticed me showing a Gold Card saying Hatfield to Hadley Wood every single day!

(Yes, I did have a valid Z1-6 Travelcard too - but never showed it voluntarily).

Never on an on-board check have I had the ticket checked thoroughly either. I presume they must be checking the date, or possibly the photo, but not the start/end destination - which makes me suspect I could probably travel anywhere in the NSE area and get away with it if I made sure to travel with lots of people and waited until at least one person ahead had to seek assistance, and I followed behind waving my ticket.

I'm not going to try the theory, but I'm 95% confident I'd be alright!

 

[Helvellyn]

The fact that the police were called for an excess of about £5 (assuming CDR, no railcard) which is a matter of routeing dispute - which is surely a civil matter - where the routeing guide was not produced as evidence to back up the RPIs claim, demonstrates how ludicrous these barriers are, where a customer who is doing nothing wrong at all has the police called for no valid reason, yet any dodger could easily get through with a couple of cheap tickets at either end to get past the barriers. That's why barriers are flawed: harrassment of paying customers and letting dodgers dodge. Madness! No wonder the DfT are so keen...

The railways should not be able to call the police over trivial contractual matters such as a difference of agreement over routeing. That's an abuse of power.

If the routing via Havant was not valid, that means SWT would not get any Revenue from it, as in effect it would be a Southern only ticket. And if this person was trying it on a regular basis that £5 each time soon adds up. Revenue Protection isn't about making sure passengers have a ticket, it's about making sure they have the right ticket.

As to the police being called, if the staff member was starting to get threatened then it's not an abuse of power for them to be called.

You seem to frequently criticise Revenue Protection staff and Guards for carrying out their duties. As one who has been at the sharp end in both roles, in the region concerned, I can say that every passenger is not innocent, but everyone is most certainly not treated as guilty either. A fair and robustly applied Revenue Protection policy actually brings benefits to the railway, and I've seen those benefits first hand.

 

[Lampshade]

I think people's negative perceptions of Revenue Protection are fuelled by the stories you read whereby old ladies have been treated as criminals for honest mistakes and such. Also, RPIs are really not the most friendly of people.

An example of this is when I was at Salford Crescent in July on my way back to Manchester. Two G4S staff were 'barriering' the exit ramp so one ticketless guy ran down the platform, across the tracks, up the bank and onto the street. He then proceeded to throw rocks at the G4S staff. This led to a queue forming at the booking office as station staff were looking for him. One unfortunate lad in the queue got hit on the side of the head by a rock, he then started to shout abuse at the G4S and saying stuff like "if you weren't here, I wouldn't have got whacked on the head", basically laying blame directly on the ticket inspectors with most people in the queue and around the entrance agreeing. Thankfully I already had a ticket so I stayed well out of the way and caught the next train back.

Another occasion at Salford Crescent, I was travelling from Manchester to Preston but I wasn't sure whether or not you could do BoJ on the out portion of an open return, so I played safe and split the journey at Salford, buying the ticket onward there. I asked one RPI when the ticket office closed, a pretty standard question I'd have thought as it was getting on for 17:30; he just replied "WHAT?", so I repeated it and he just barked the time it closed at me.

Hmm, people wonder why RPIs/Guards get assaulted.

 

[scrapy]

I think people's negative perceptions of Revenue Protection are fuelled by the stories you read whereby old ladies have been treated as criminals for honest mistakes and such. Also, RPIs are really not the most friendly of people.

An example of this is when I was at Salford Crescent in July on my way back to Manchester. Two G4S staff were 'barriering' the exit ramp so one ticketless guy ran down the platform, across the tracks, up the bank and onto the street. He then proceeded to throw rocks at the G4S staff. This led to a queue forming at the booking office as station staff were looking for him. One unfortunate lad in the queue got hit on the side of the head by a rock, he then started to shout abuse at the G4S and saying stuff like "if you weren't here, I wouldn't have got whacked on the head", basically laying blame directly on the ticket inspectors with most people in the queue and around the entrance agreeing. Thankfully I already had a ticket so I stayed well out of the way and caught the next train back.

Another occasion at Salford Crescent, I was travelling from Manchester to Preston but I wasn't sure whether or not you could do BoJ on the out portion of an open return, so I played safe and split the journey at Salford, buying the ticket onward there. I asked one RPI when the ticket office closed, a pretty standard question I'd have thought as it was getting on for 17:30; he just replied "WHAT?", so I repeated it and he just barked the time it closed at me.

Hmm, people wonder why RPIs/Guards get assaulted.

You may have not liked the way you were spoken too, he answered your question though. Is that an excuse for an assault??

There are plenty more rude members of the public should they be assaulted too???