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West Lothian buses

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overthewater

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Blue bus also and your missing one vital point with your ",tough cheese" about job losses ,the competition commission and the monopolies and mergers might have something to say about "big company " forcing smaller operators to the wall ,First have been heavily punished before for such practice, and I'm pretty sure Lothian were recently losers in a case with a smaller company ? I'd be very surprised if one of the smaller operators does not issue a notice of complaint .

I haven't mist Blue bus since there dont operate any on the list, and are also holding their own on 701 and 71/77 routes. while the two tenders are not affected. Unfortunately, ",tough cheese" will happen either way..

Firstly what's the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA), got to do with a council withdrawing funds on bus routes which others now provide on a commercial basis? If some company goes to the wall because there council work is no longer around what can CMA do? As I said WLC are looking to make further cut backs on the subsdise bus network to save more cash, this is going to be happening next year. So you may will end up with a situation where council has no choice but to withdraw routes, who to blame then? People of Linlithgow had a real battle and won some improvements but there was a report done and the towns people have been trying every trick in the book to generate more money for the local bus. Certain routes being axed and job losses are going to happen, its not nice but you need to see the writing on the wall..

People of West Calder and Addiewell still demand a bus gets put back on to Bathgate, but the council can't afford it, and there deffo can't afford an evening service which cost £34 per passenger..

If your on about commercial work then its only SD travel ( 150 ) or Blue Bue, EM has no commercial work.
 
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tbtc

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If Lothian had tried this in 2012/13 when First were open to selling and/or walking away from poorly performing operations, they might have succeeded. First Scotland East is a different beast these days – they’ve ditched most of the deadwood and the hacking back of the Stirling network suggests that they’re planning on sticking around here too. I still think Lothian have misjudged things badly. Their West Lothian plans only make sense if First leave the stage – and it’ll take more than we’ve seen so far to make that happen. One caveat: Lothian have deep pockets and don't have to meet City expectations, so if the management decide to dig in and take the financial hit, they might still win – but it won’t be pretty.

I agree that the First services in WL look as good today as they have in recent history (the simple routes with fifteen minute services on the busiest corridors and half hourly on the others looks about as good as you could hope for from a private company). It seems odd that Lothian should go after them *now*, when they are finally getting their act together (rather than previous years).

But then, we don't know what Lothian's plan is - it's not a reaction to anything by First (if anything, it's come at a time when First have cut back on their services into Edinburgh - half the 38s chopped, one bus fewer per hour along Gorgie Road too), so can't comment on whether they are ahead of target or otherwise.

If they were attacking Stagecoach/ Go-Ahead/ Arrival then I'd agree that it'd be hard to shift the incumbent operator in West Lothian. But this is First we are talking about, and given the financial problems that the group has, it's not inconceivable that they'll be considering walking away - you don't have to take all of their passengers, you only have to take the "10%" of passengers that make the difference between the flagship routes being profitable and marginal - enough to wound them without killing them - then it becomes a question of who has the guts for a longer war of attrition - the council owned company or the private one with the antsy shareholders looking for an excuse to get rid of any awkward operations.

I can't see this working out at all for Lothian - I'm old enough to remember the last time they ventured out to the west, in the early nineties. By the end of 1994 they had admitted defeat against SMT and withdrawn from West Lothian.

It's a completely different market out there and from what I've seen so far (and read on here) First are holding their ground. The mass switch from First to Lothian simply hasn't materialised, and nor is it likely to materialise. Once the losses start stacking up I think that Lothian will realise, like the last time, that West Lothian has been one step too far and pull out.

In fairness, LRT pulled out of West Lothian (and South Queensferry) in the '90s because First were coincidently pulling out of various suburbs of Edinburgh - all coincidental, if the competition authorities want to look at it, but essentially a quid-pro-quo - I don't think it was admitting defeat, it was about getting the SMT CitySprinter minibuses out of the pockets of Edinburgh that they were taking hold of.
 

Stef434

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Speaking to a few drivers i know in the area, and they all seem to be saying stuff along the same sort of lines...

"First are still holding their own with Lothian running mostly empty", it also seems that most of these few Lothian passengers are car users and over 60s on the 275. It's also been highlighted that the Ex-London stock is proving unreliable and disliked, with complaints of the vehicles being too jercky.

As i've said already Lothian really need a bit of a reality check, i think management had the idea stuck in their head that people would switch to the "Lothian brand", when most of the general public don't have that mentality, people like to stick to what they know and dislike having to change their travel routine. The best outcome is for First to ride out and wait for Lothian to eventually realise they've made a mistake... Hard for the vain management i know!

If it wasn't for their seriously overpriced tours they probably would be in financial difficulty by now. That being said the tax payer would take the brunt of the costs anyway!
speaking to a few drivers that I know is slightly differently from yours quite the opposite
Livingston drivers comments...."First will be charging £7 day ticket from Fauldhouse" next " ,the changes are only temporarily"next
new services starting shortly as we are paying a fortune in taxis" next "First are selling up next year" opinions are great to fuel speculation.
 

atlantean

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Can you still purchase Lothian Country Buses Ridacard for zones C and D? I'm aware that this was historical as Lothian Country used to operate there but they haven't renamed it to an ECB ridcard? What a mess.
 

Jordan Adam

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speaking to a few drivers that I know is slightly differently from yours quite the opposite
Livingston drivers comments...."First will be charging £7 day ticket from Fauldhouse" next " ,the changes are only temporarily"next
new services starting shortly as we are paying a fortune in taxis" next "First are selling up next year" opinions are great to fuel speculation.

Those sound like the typical sort of drivers who constantly say negative things about the company they work for, regardless of if the company is doing good or bad.... The sort that constantly moan about the job, but never do anything to improve it.... The sort that strike, but they don't know what they're striking for....
 

In Focus

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speaking to a few drivers that I know is slightly differently from yours quite the opposite
Livingston drivers comments...."First will be charging £7 day ticket from Fauldhouse" next " ,the changes are only temporarily"next
new services starting shortly as we are paying a fortune in taxis" next "First are selling up next year" opinions are great to fuel speculation.
Some amount of "fake news" going on here fella lol does Donald Trump know about you!! Haha
 

In Focus

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I haven't mist Blue bus since there dont operate any on the list, and are also holding their own on 701 and 71/77 routes. while the two tenders are not affected. Unfortunately, ",tough cheese" will happen either way..

Firstly what's the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA), got to do with a council withdrawing funds on bus routes which others now provide on a commercial basis? If some company goes to the wall because there council work is no longer around what can CMA do? As I said WLC are looking to make further cut backs on the subsdise bus network to save more cash, this is going to be happening next year. So you may will end up with a situation where council has no choice but to withdraw routes, who to blame then? People of Linlithgow had a real battle and won some improvements but there was a report done and the towns people have been trying every trick in the book to generate more money for the local bus. Certain routes being axed and job losses are going to happen, its not nice but you need to see the writing on the wall..

People of West Calder and Addiewell still demand a bus gets put back on to Bathgate, but the council can't afford it, and there deffo can't afford an evening service which cost £34 per passenger..

If your on about commercial work then its only SD travel ( 150 ) or Blue Bue, EM has no commercial work.
CMA night have no control over tendered work but aggressively positioning your timetable to run directly ahead of an already in place timetable will be of interest to them in pretty sure ,why were LCB allowed to.operate 280 out of Blackridge 5 min ahead of the 25 ,surely an evenly spread 15 minute 4 buses should be forced to make it s "public service"?
The bus from Loganlea ,Stoneyburn to Bathgate has been a white Elephant for many years and EM Horsburgh dropped it as soon as subsidy was removed ,even companies on the doorstep can't touch it without a helping hand for obvious financial reasons!, although I expect LCB to reinvent the former 275/284 route and incorporate that part and taking passengers from Firsts 26 service which takes far too long from Bathgate to these places
 

overthewater

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EM Horsburgh never dropped it as soon as subsidy was removed, there run it for a year, then First took it over and then there pulled it. there is at least 18-22 month period of no subsidy.
 

In Focus

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EM Horsburgh never dropped it as soon as subsidy was removed, there run it for a year, then First took it over and then there pulled it. there is at least 18-22 month period of no subsidy.
275 ,36 , 466, 407, 803 all previous numbers associated with that particular stretch none of which have managed to run it at a break even , I did once attend a public meeting regards the Sunday service beomg removed when around 150 people swore blind they used it every Sunday mind you !!
 

Jordan Adam

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Some amount of "fake news" going on here fella lol does Donald Trump know about you!! Haha

Certain Lothian fanboys have been starting rumours elsewhere that First are pulling out.... :rolleyes:

275 ,36 , 466, 407, 803 all previous numbers associated with that particular stretch none of which have managed to run it at a break even , I did once attend a public meeting regards the Sunday service beomg removed when around 150 people swore blind they used it every Sunday mind you !!

Sounds a bit like the Airyhall area here when it comes to Evening services, they ask for a service they don't use!
 

TheEastCoaster

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Can you still purchase Lothian Country Buses Ridacard for zones C and D? I'm aware that this was historical as Lothian Country used to operate there but they haven't renamed it to an ECB ridcard? What a mess.

I think they still have application forms in the travel shops but could be wrong, I’m still surprised East Coast haven’t updated or upgraded the ridacard for Zone E/F.. it’s been 2 years surely

In fairness, LRT pulled out of West Lothian (and South Queensferry) in the '90s because First were coincidently pulling out of various suburbs of Edinburgh - all coincidental, if the competition authorities want to look at it, but essentially a quid-pro-quo - I don't think it was admitting defeat, it was about getting the SMT CitySprinter minibuses out of the pockets of Edinburgh that they were taking hold of.

It’s a strange case right enough, now in recent years Lothian finally returned to Queensferry with the 63 4 years ago and then again a year ago with the 43, and now an interesting experiment in West Lothian, (I’m now calling it that because I’m unsure what the future holds for LCB and First)

With all speculation it’s hard to tell what’s fact and what’s just a rumour with these posts, I do want LCB to succeed in West Lothian but my optimism is slowly decreasing over time, However I doubt they’ll withdraw so fast especially with a new depot on the horizon, my guess is they’ll keep at their experiment and hope to draw more customers in overtime.

As for First I can’t comment since I don’t use their services anymore, though tbf I never did much in the first place, I do notice the passanger numbers seem fine with the city routes, though other than that I’m not sure how they are in West Lothian, for now the war continues.
 

In Focus

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Hearing a rumour (and that's all it is) the LCB have put phase 3 " on hold " due to "logistical issues" and not having the" staffing levels they anticipated" anyone hearing anything simular or if its still planned to go ahead ?
guess as was said earlier we shall know of its true pretty quickly as phase 3 would have been rolled out prior to Christmas to make maximum use of the busy period .
 

TheEastCoaster

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Hearing a rumour (and that's all it is) the LCB have put phase 3 " on hold " due to "logistical issues" and not having the" staffing levels they anticipated" anyone hearing anything simular or if its still planned to go ahead ?
guess as was said earlier we shall know of its true pretty quickly as phase 3 would have been rolled out prior to Christmas to make maximum use of the busy period .

If that’s true it does make sense, one of the most used response is the lack of resources whenever they get asked about Corstorphine or Kirkliston, we’ve still got 11 weeks till Christmas so unless something happens between now and than I’m not sure.

Also the single deckers that were painted LCB Livery? one can specify that those will be intergrated into phase 3 somewhat. I’m hoping they get put on the possible Kirkliston route (when/if that time comes)
 

overthewater

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STAGECOACH has changes planned for 26th November, so its process has already started. Unless Lothian have submitted plans to the Council already why would there waste two weeks?
 

Observer

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Hearing a rumour (and that's all it is) the LCB have put phase 3 " on hold " due to "logistical issues" and not having the" staffing levels they anticipated" anyone hearing anything simular or if its still planned to go ahead ?
guess as was said earlier we shall know of its true pretty quickly as phase 3 would have been rolled out prior to Christmas to make maximum use of the busy period .
I do remember reading something somewhere about First drivers setting up interviews only to no-show them. So perhaps First have managed to do something to keep their drivers from going then.

Logistical issues could also mean a shortage of buses, even though there are still plenty to come in.
 

TheEastCoaster

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I do remember reading something somewhere about First drivers setting up interviews only to no-show them. So perhaps First have managed to do something to keep their drivers from going then.

Logistical issues could also mean a shortage of buses, even though there are still plenty to come in.


With 4 new routes every half an hour that’s I’m guessing 18 buses (or more) are out on service everyday with spares at the depot in case a breakdown occurs, how many more buses are LCB expecting if anyone knows? hopefully this move to Newbridge happens soon otherwise Longstone are going to have buses parked in the street lol
 

herb21

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With 4 new routes every half an hour that’s I’m guessing 18 buses (or more) are out on service everyday with spares at the depot in case a breakdown occurs, how many more buses are LCB expecting if anyone knows? hopefully this move to Newbridge happens soon otherwise Longstone are going to have buses parked in the street lol
If there is a potential logistics delay could it not be more to do with the new depot not being ready?
 

TheEastCoaster

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It's only leased but not sure the length of the lease ,sure they would use it for something if LCB experiment doesn't work out .

Is it really? I’m not surprised given the short time it took to get it. Perhaps certain Skylink routes (I.E the 200) and The 20,63 can be transferred to the garage If they have the space that is?
 

Driver362

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Maybe if you had some first hand information the comments might be more balanced, granted it’s not standing room only , but neither is it as bad as some commenters seem to think and , I run with these guys day and night the other operators busses don’t seem bulging at the sides either, in fact I’ve seen some off there buses with less than 5 pax on board , bluebus seems to be doing ok though in the interest of being a fair comment
 

In Focus

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Maybe if you had some first hand information the comments might be more balanced, granted it’s not standing room only , but neither is it as bad as some commenters seem to think and , I run with these guys day and night the other operators busses don’t seem bulging at the sides either, in fact I’ve seen some off there buses with less than 5 pax on board , bluebus seems to be doing ok though in the interest of being a fair comment
Blue bus and SD Travel will hold their passengers, as for balanced I did say on an earlier comment far too many buses ,far too few passengers and a bus terminus bursting at its seems in Livingston!!
And yes it is as bad as some are saying and the basic fact of it is only 1 "large operator " will remain in West Lothian it does not have the passengers to sustain 2 .
It will be the public who ultimately we owe of they stick by the local operator who has served West Lothian for many years or the Lothian Country service if they decide to stick around and Lothian Region are happy to subsidise it for many years to come , or maybe West Lothian Council shall chip in a few £ as they seem to favour the LCB and the PR machine that drives it forward.
Time shall tell .
 

overthewater

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If LCB wins there will treat West Lothian like a cash cow, and will make the commuters pay far more than First ever made people pay.
 

In Focus

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If LCB wins there will treat West Lothian like a cash cow, and will make the commuters pay far more than First ever made people pay.
They will indeed as the market here won't sustain them if people expect City prices they are in for a shock.
 

Driver362

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£1.70 from eastmains to livi toll isn’t bad value , giving pax weekly mobile tickets that they can use 5 days of there choice etc , granted there are some flaws in ticketing and no ridacard option yet but we’re like a couple of months in so there’s time to sort these out hopefully there are also winners and losers in all zonal ticketing regardless off operator , no? Just out off interest how much is it on a first bus to do the same journey eastmains to say shinitsu ?
 

In Focus

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£1.70 from eastmains to livi toll isn’t bad value , giving pax weekly mobile tickets that they can use 5 days of there choice etc , granted there are some flaws in ticketing and no ridacard option yet but we’re like a couple of months in so there’s time to sort these out hopefully there are also winners and losers in all zonal ticketing regardless off operator , no? Just out off interest how much is it on a first bus to do the same journey eastmains to say shinitsu ?
It will be around £3.70 for a single fare for that journey , although a £18.50 weekly would make it under £1 per journey if used there and back, another important factor is concession (of which WL has lots) 55% of £1.70 = 90p ,55% of £3.70 = £2.00 that's a considerable difference when the £££ are handed put for that particular scheme and is one of main reasons First don't reduce the adult single fare as it's what the concession scheme is based on .
As for the Weekly and daily tickets I think there are good and bad points to both companies schemes.
The main fault in all of this though is this fable that Lothian tin a public service and first just run for profit the fact that Lothian placed their buses 5 mins ahead if First show that they too are out to aggressively take over West Lothian and anyone who thinks differently is way off the mark . 4 buses per hour should in a proper public service be run at 15 minutes intervals and allow public a well spaced out regular service ?
 

Driver362

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Tell you what guys reading through the thread , there are some ignorant ill informed comments, not all I must stress I’ve worked for first for a fair number of years , and now work for the green busses and have a fair knowledge off both I just can’t tolerate some off the drivel in this thread . Knowing what I know I shall hang my rail uk forum hat up and keep working away till they tell me I don’t have a job anymore , enjoy your forum guys , I’m out
 
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