How much fare evasion is there and are barriers the way to go?

[Lampshade]

You may have not liked the way you were spoken too, he answered your question though. Is that an excuse for an assault??

There are plenty more rude members of the public should they be assaulted too???

Yes but this was an employee of the railway and therefore should be expected to show at least a small modicum of customer care and regardless of events/mood, should remain professional (unless it's in the RPI job description to be a miserable old fart). I worked in a call centre last year and if I'd have yelled at someone in the manner in which he yelled at me, I'd have been fired there and then

How would you like it if you went into/rang up a shop and got yelled at? Doubt you'd shop there again.

 

[Mintona]

Did he really yell? I know most of the G4S staff at Manchester, and they are all nice people. None of them would yell at you for asking a question like that.

And no, not all RPOs are "miserable old farts". In their line of work they get abused daily, which is why they might seem miserable or harsh. But most of them will still treat you with a smile if you are polite to them. I think you have probably forgotten all the hundreds of good ones you've seen, and just remembered the bad ones, and then labelled them all the same.

 

[daccer]

This whole issue surely comes down to perception. The perception for many years has been the free travel is possible if you are a little crafty or deceitful. No one thinks like this when it comes to flying domestically - you wouldnt get on an Easyjet plane without paying first. The whole point of barriers I think is to create a perception that this will no longer be tolerated on trains. I guess speed cameras have the same effect. Even if the camera has no film in it you slow down when you pass it - hence it has the desired effect.

My concern is the level of fraudulent travel on the railways. If 80% of travel is done on discounted tickets - seasons and AP's etc it does follow that the vast majority of fraud is committed with turn up and go tickets. If 5% of the total ticket revenue is lost through fraud it does mean that the fraudulent travel rate for turn up and go tickets is anything up to 20%. That is a frightening statistic! Faced with such a large problem then I am sure the TOC's can justify any action. It's amazing that we always focus on th revenue protection measures rather than the fact we need them in the first place!

 

[Lampshade]

Did he really yell? I know most of the G4S staff at Manchester, and they are all nice people. None of them would yell at you for asking a question like that.

And no, not all RPOs are "miserable old farts". In their line of work they get abused daily, which is why they might seem miserable or harsh. But most of them will still treat you with a smile if you are polite to them. I think you have probably forgotten all the hundreds of good ones you've seen, and just remembered the bad ones, and then labelled them all the same.

To be fair, I've not seen him since and I'd never suggest all RPIs were like that, I was just highlighting a bad example.

 

[GB]

I think people's negative perceptions of Revenue Protection are fuelled by the stories you read whereby old ladies have been treated as criminals for honest mistakes and such. Also, RPIs are really not the most friendly of people.

An example of this is when I was at Salford Crescent in July on my way back to Manchester. Two G4S staff were 'barriering' the exit ramp so one ticketless guy ran down the platform, across the tracks, up the bank and onto the street. He then proceeded to throw rocks at the G4S staff. This led to a queue forming at the booking office as station staff were looking for him. One unfortunate lad in the queue got hit on the side of the head by a rock, he then started to shout abuse at the G4S and saying stuff like "if you weren't here, I wouldn't have got whacked on the head", basically laying blame directly on the ticket inspectors with most people in the queue and around the entrance agreeing. Thankfully I already had a ticket so I stayed well out of the way and caught the next train back.

Please explain then how this is an "example" of why you consider RPIs to be "not the most friendly of people". Its hardly the staffs fault that someone was childish enough to strart throwing rocks and while it is unfortunate that a member of the public was hit, he had absoloutly no buisness laying the blame on the RPI.

Another occasion at Salford Crescent, I was travelling from Manchester to Preston but I wasn't sure whether or not you could do BoJ on the out portion of an open return, so I played safe and split the journey at Salford, buying the ticket onward there. I asked one RPI when the ticket office closed, a pretty standard question I'd have thought as it was getting on for 17:30; he just replied "WHAT?", so I repeated it and he just barked the time it closed at me.

Hmm, people wonder why RPIs/Guards get assaulted.

People do have off days you know. Rail staff are not all robots and its hardly grounds for assult is it:roll:

 

[Lampshade]

Please explain then how this is an "example" of why you consider RPIs to be "not the most friendly of people". Its hardly the staffs fault that someone was childish enough to strart throwing rocks and while it is unfortunate that a member of the public was hit, he had absoloutly no buisness laying the blame on the RPI.

In no way do I condone it but the fact that no one sided with them bearing in mind it was rush hour and the station was packed I think tells you something about the popularity of their being there. One only needs to Google it to find horror stories although not always applicable, but it fuels people's negative perceptions of them. I really couldn't help but feel sorry for the RPI but I'm really not one to get involved when someone two feet taller than me is making a scene.

People do have off days you know. Rail staff are not all robots and its hardly grounds for assult is it:roll:

I'm not saying it is, but on this one occasion had he barked at someone less tolerant he'd have probably been given a thick ear.

I'm leaving this argument, opinions seem to count for nothing :roll:

 

[thelem]

If the routing via Havant was not valid, that means SWT would not get any Revenue from it, as in effect it would be a Southern only ticket.

As a passenger, that is not my problem (unless the ticket itself said Southern Only).

 

[nedchester]

I've said it before but there does seem some paragons of virtue on here when it comes to fare evading. Whilst it is not right to travel without a ticket I suspect quite a few of us have 'got away' without paying for things (not just train travel) without being racked with guilt.

So try not to be superior if you think that at some point you've got one up on the company as it were.

Mind you I know of one person who was an 'effer' and got convicted as such many years ago and is now an RPI. Poacher turned gamekeeper me thinks!

 

[Old Timer]

As a passenger, that is not my problem (unless the ticket itself said Southern Only).

It is your problem to ensure that you are travelling on the correct service and the correct route for the ticket you have purchased though.

 

[Drsatan]

It is your problem to ensure that you are travelling on the correct service and the correct route for the ticket you have purchased though.

Not necessarily, given that "any permitted" is extremely vague and the average passenger isn't a fares expert.

 

[ukrob]

It is your problem to ensure that you are travelling on the correct service and the correct route for the ticket you have purchased though.

Then very passenger should be equipped with a routing guide with their ticket if it is 'any permitted'.

You can't expect everyone off the street to know what is and what isn't a valid route. And nor do they care who gets revenue for each part of their journey.

 

[Helvellyn]

My concern is the level of fraudulent travel on the railways. If 80% of travel is done on discounted tickets - seasons and AP's etc it does follow that the vast majority of fraud is committed with turn up and go tickets. If 5% of the total ticket revenue is lost through fraud it does mean that the fraudulent travel rate for turn up and go tickets is anything up to 20%. That is a frightening statistic! Faced with such a large problem then I am sure the TOC's can justify any action. It's amazing that we always focus on th revenue protection measures rather than the fact we need them in the first place!

But it's not just on turn up and go tickets. Fraud can be committed on any ticket. I've seen forged and altered Season Tickets - whether they be weekly, monthly or Gold Card (even a First Class one). Forged and altered railcards. Forged and altered Staff Passes. Passengers using railcards and season tickets belonging to other people.

Even Advance Purchase tickets are abused. The press like to go on about cases where a little old lady is told she has to buy a full fare Anytime Ticket because she missed her booked train through no fault of her own. But equally there are people who think they can travel on any train they want, and when challenged come out with "there's spare seats though", ignoring the fact that Advance Purchase fares are so cheap because they book you on specific services, using yield management techniques. If you want to turn up and go, then buy that ticket type. You don't buy a return fare on ba.com six months in advance at a dirt cheap price, then when you come to fly turn up at the airport 12 hours early and expect to be given a seat on an earlier flight.

 

[Old Timer]

Then very passenger should be equipped with a routing guide with their ticket if it is 'any permitted'.

You can't expect everyone off the street to know what is and what isn't a valid route. And nor do they care who gets revenue for each part of their journey.

Where has personal responsibility gone these days ?

I am unfamiliar with the specific route but I would imagine that it is not a direct route.

If for example I buy a ticket Newark North Gate to London, I dont then travel to Nottingham and go up The Midland, or buy a ticket at say Hertford North and then travel via Stevenage.

The onus rests with the passenger to clarify if the route they plan to take is valid under "Any Permitted".

Passenger abuse of the Railways is legendary. Try those sorts of tricks on the airlines and see what happens !

Imagine arriving at the KLM desk at Birmingham International
and saying "Oh I thought this tickets to Amsterdam was valid via London Heathrow, so I am not going to pay the difference, etc..."

I think I can predict how long it would be before you are being escorted out of the airport !

Sounds like the need for a simple notice stating that tickets are not valid via a certain route should be displayed or the ticket endorsed not via Havant.

 

[ukrob]

Where has personal responsibility gone these days ?

Didn't you hear? It doesn't exist anymore

Passenger abuse of the Railways is legendary. Try those sorts of tricks on the airlines and see what happens !

Imagine arriving at the KLM desk at Birmingham International
and saying "Oh I thought this tickets to Amsterdam was valid via London Heathrow, so I am not going to pay the difference, etc..."

Analogy doesn't work as you are booked onto a specific flight before you board.

Sounds like the need for a simple notice stating that tickets are not valid via a certain route should be displayed or the ticket endorsed not via Havant.

Where has personal responsibility gone these days ?

 

[Helvellyn]

Analogy doesn't work as you are booked onto a specific flight before you board.

Yet numerous passengers with Advance Purchase tickets, booking them on a specific train, still think they can travel on other services if their plans change and that the original ticket is still valid.

 

[Old Timer]

..Analogy doesn't work as you are booked onto a specific flight before you board.

Yes I am somewhat aware of that but you can still buy open tickets or you can arrive at the check-in desk with an open dated return and provided that there are seats you willbe accommodated.

My point was that you could not arrive at an airport and then decide to travel an alternative route which is longer and not expect to pay, yet it would appear to be an acceptable excuse to some.

This is one for Helvellyn.

Years ago in BR days our TTIs used to follow serial fare evaders over a period of time and build up a rock solid case. If this person does it regularly then is this done these days ?

 

[ivanhoe]

Number of issues here, in my opinion:
Nobody has the right to a free ride :
Even barriers require Staff Presence:
Does the cost of employing extra staff negate the extra revenue coming in over a year?
Can Guards be expected to sell tickets and be ready for action when the next station approaches and still catch anybody without a ticket?

No easy answers but barriers are a deterent to serial fare evaders.

I like the Italian solution where you must validate the ticket before boarding the train. For Stations without ticket office presence however, it is difficult. Name and Shame I say for the evaders. There are no free rides because we all pay for them.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Years ago in BR days our TTIs used to follow serial fare evaders over a period of time and build up a rock solid case. If this person does it regularly then is this done these days ?

Yes, this is still done, and it is still successful.

In respect of the Barnham/Havant/Waterloo journey, the fare the customer paid was £14.50 but the correct fare for his journey was £25.00. What he had paid was less than the price of a Waterloo-Havant return, why should he pay such a low fare when most other people are paying the right fare?

He was lucky that there was no RPI presence as he would have ended up with a penalty fare of around £50 (twice the single fare).

If a passenger is making a journey and chooses to take a route that is greater in distance, less convenient and takes longer it is only reasonable to expect them to check with staff prior to boarding the train that their ticket is valid.

 

[ukrob]

Yet numerous passengers with Advance Purchase tickets, booking them on a specific train, still think they can travel on other services if their plans change and that the original ticket is still valid.

But we are talking about walk up 'any permitted' ticket.

 

[yorkie]

If the routing via Havant was not valid, that means SWT would not get any Revenue from it,

So? Do NXEC get any revenue from a Huntingdon-London season + Huntingdon-Peterborough Day Return? No they do not. Do they have to accept it? Yes they do.

as in effect it would be a Southern only ticket.

Not true at all, 3 reasons why:
1) See above
2) It's not marked Southern only
3) Still valid on SWT as per the routeing guide (just not via Havant)

And if this person was trying it on a regular basis that £5 each time soon adds up. Revenue Protection isn't about making sure passengers have a ticket, it's about making sure they have the right ticket.

If people are going an unusual route on a regular basis because it gets them there quickly, it needs to be made valid in the RG, end of story.

As to the police being called, if the staff member was starting to get threatened then it's not an abuse of power for them to be called.

Clearly, they were threatening the customer! If the customer did react it would have been under provocation. The police agreed that no action should be taken, which was a good decision.

You seem to frequently criticise Revenue Protection staff and Guards for carrying out their duties. As one who has been at the sharp end in both roles, in the region concerned, I can say that every passenger is not innocent, but everyone is most certainly not treated as guilty either. A fair and robustly applied Revenue Protection policy actually brings benefits to the railway, and I've seen those benefits first hand.

I criticise when customers are not treated as customers. I am sure you would criticise staff in a restaurant if someone was mistreated. Customers have the right to be treated in a fair manner and the ticketing system in this country is incredibly expensive, customers cannot be expected to know the ins and outs of the routeing guide if the member of staff who claims the route isn't valid cannot himself be sure and cannot provide proof on demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My concern is the level of fraudulent travel on the railways. If 80% of travel is done on discounted tickets - seasons and AP's etc it does follow that the vast majority of fraud is committed with turn up and go tickets. If 5% of the total ticket revenue is lost through fraud it does mean that the fraudulent travel rate for turn up and go tickets is anything up to 20%. That is a frightening statistic!

These statistics are simply made up by you just now!

I'll do likewise: 10% of ticket revenue is unfairly gained due to the TOCs charging considerably higher prices for some flows where the cost of a ticket from A to C can be up to three times higher than A-B plus B-C. Many of these involve journeys that start at peak time and continue into the off peak, this means that the rate for such travel that the TOCs are defrauding passengers could be anything up to 25%! That is a frightening statistic!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is your problem to ensure that you are travelling on the correct service and the correct route for the ticket you have purchased though.

Is it your problem to ensure you are eating the correct meal and paying the correct price in a restaurant?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even Advance Purchase tickets are abused. The press like to go on about cases where a little old lady is told she has to buy a full fare Anytime Ticket because she missed her booked train through no fault of her own.

or even when rail staff usher her onto that train, then another member of rail staff says that action was incorrect, but it's the old lady who is liable.....

Or is this a different story you are referring to???

I suspect not, just the same one re-worded to suit the railways. That was one battle that the railways LOST and Virgin had to offer free tickets, refunds and apologies and it got them a huge amount of bad publicity. And rightly so!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If for example I buy a ticket Newark North Gate to London, I dont then travel to Nottingham and go up The Midland, .

Why not? There's no such thing as a Newark North Gate to London ticket, they are Newark Stations, and it's perfectly valid and permitted. If you choose to always take the direct route, that's your choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In respect of the Barnham/Havant/Waterloo journey, the fare the customer paid was £14.50 but the correct fare for his journey was £25.00. What he had paid was less than the price of a Waterloo-Havant return, why should he pay such a low fare when most other people are paying the right fare?

I don't think so.

From Avantix 03:
Havant-London Terminals CDR 28.40 SUP 25.50
Barnham-London Terminals CDR 23.00 SUP N/A

If he was arriving after 1200 the excess is £2.50. If departing after 0930 but arriving before 1200 the excess is £5.40.

Your original figure was not "less than half" but the £14.50 fare does not exist in Avantix 03.

In any case, you could argue that, because the fare from A to B is higher than A to C, that means A to C is not valid via B, however if the RG says it is, then it is. Using the fares argument does not necessarily mean a route is not valid, as the fares check rule only applies to determining valid Routeing Points, not to the overall journey. I could name several examples like this one, where the longer route is valid. There is no logic to the RG so why should customers expect to understand it fully when many staff do not?

He was lucky that there was no RPI presence as he would have ended up with a penalty fare of around £50 (twice the single fare).

No!

Penalty fares CAN NOT be issued when a customer is off route. That is an abuse of power and is illegal.

If a passenger is making a journey and chooses to take a route that is greater in distance, less convenient and takes longer it is only reasonable to expect them to check with staff prior to boarding the train that their ticket is valid.

The police say no. I say no. Any reasonable person would say no. The likelihood of finding a member of staff who understands the RG is so small that it cannot possibly be considered reasonable. Especially in SWT-land where some staff deny the RG even exists!

 

[moonrakerz]

Yet numerous passengers with Advance Purchase tickets, booking them on a specific train, still think they can travel on other services if their plans change and that the original ticket is still valid.

On several occasions, when I have got back to the station well before my booked train, I have asked the guard on a earlier train if I can get on that with my Advance ticket. Never been told "No".

Well done FGW !

 

[yorkie]

If a passenger is making a journey and chooses to take a route that is greater in distance, less convenient and takes longer it is only reasonable to expect them to check with staff prior to boarding the train that their ticket is valid.

Do you honestly think, if I present a ticket York to Leeds to the guard before joining a NXEC service to Doncaster, if I ask "is this valid?" that they will give the correct answer? I would be shocked if I got the correct answer as per the RG.

Equally, if I did the same with TPE, a ticket York to Doncaster, asking if it's valid via Leeds, I bet they'd say yes, as it's a more expensive ticket, and journeys north of York to south of Doncaster are valid via Leeds, and historically it's always been valid. But it isn't as per the RG since recent changes. I'd be shocked if they gave the correct answer, and I bet no-one would ever be challenged using such a ticket as it's perfectly reasonable.

If you can guarantee that customers will always get the correct answer from the RG when asking that question, then I would agree with you. So, can you?

 

[90019]

If people are going an unusual route on a regular basis because it gets them there quickly, it needs to be made valid in the RG, end of story.

Erm, why exactly?

Why should it suddenly become valid if someone takes an unusual route regularly because it's slightly quicker?
Would you say this applies to all tickets or just the select few that you think it's acceptable?

 

[yorkie]

Erm, why exactly?

Why should it suddenly become valid if someone takes an unusual route regularly because it's slightly quicker?
Would you say this applies to all tickets or just the select few that you think it's acceptable?

If it's a convenient route (someone here said that if you just miss a direct train then it's the fastest alternative) and there is demand for it, then it would of course make sense for it to be a permitted route. This should always apply and in fact it generally does. There are two ways it can be done. My favoured way is for the Any Permitted to be increased slightly in price to match the higher priced route, and for a route (not TOC) specific fare to be introduced at no higher than the price of the cheaper route. However in some cases it is done by not altering the Any Permitted and introducing a higher priced route, e.g. Brentwood to Liverpool St Route Shenfield. Why does this not make sense? If there's demand for it, let people have it.

There are many examples of daft routes in the RG. So even remotely sensible ones should be an option.

 

[Matt Taylor]

For clarity it should be pointed out that the customer was actually doing the reverse journey, I should have pointed that out earlier, nevertheless he made it clear that he called the police rather than the police were called by revenue staff, might I also add that this guy's attitude was awful and he was prepared to listen to nobody's opinion or explanation but his own. I tried politely to explain why the ticket was not valid and why it was not a simple excess but he would not listen, he ordered to me to 'just sell me a ticket so I can get on my train'.

Irrespective of that, he already held a London Terminals to Clapham CDR and presented himself at Havant without a valid ticket, a PF would have been entirely appropriate. The excess was a CDR London Terminals to Havant (Network discount) and a CDR Havant to Barnham (Network discount not applicable), minus the fare he had already paid.The sum of these fares comes to around £23 which is considerably more than the £14.50 he wanted to pay.

This guy purchased a ticket to Clapham at Waterloo and then proceeded to board a train that was first stop Woking despite plenty of trains to Clapham being available, how is that anything other than deliberate fare evasion?

 

[royaloak]

Probably hoping the barriers were open at Barham!
As you state he was off hand and abusive when he couldnt get his own way so how do all the "the passenger is always right" brigade think he would have reacted on the train if the guard had found him.
I just wish some of them would spend a day or 2 out with a guard/ rpi and see how much crap they have to put up with from people who know they are in the wrong.

 

[yorkie]

Well given that version of events I am less inclined to be supportive toward the customer, although I can't quite understand why he presented himself at Havant if if he was evading, why didn't he just change from one train to another and wouldn't have presented himself?

I still think a ticket should be available for that route.

Chichester to London route Hassocks/Horsham is the same price as Barnham to London route Any Permitted, but Chichester also has a Route Any Permitted for 18.75. Really, Barnham should have the same options! If they don't want to make Havant a permitted route from Barnham on Any Permitted tickets, then why not introduce a Route Havant ticket for 18.75? It is unreasonable for a passenger to be denied that option just one further station (6 minute journey) down the line.

 

[daccer]

For Yorkie - the last estimate I saw (from ATOC) was that ticket fraud/errors was amounting to up to 250 million pounds per year on the system. As the total ticket sales on the system are over 5 billion per year it isnt difficult to come to a % figure. As evidence of ticket evasion is obviously anecdotal this is probably an underestimate. There will be some genuine errors made by passengers because of the complex fare structure but the vast majority is fraud perpetuated by serial criminals. You dont pay the correct fare it is theft pure and simple. By offering a turn up and go system the railways are passing the obligation to the passenger to make sure they abide by the fare structure. The only way of remedying this completely is to abandon the principle and to go the airline route of every seat having to be pre-booked - then we will see passengers crying. Of course this will never happen but the fact remains it is the passengers job to ensure he gets the right ticket for the trip he is taking. The fact that people dont is the reason we now have gatelines and security companies patrolling platforms.

 

[Matt Taylor]

It's complicated.......just like the rest of the fares system. Havant to London is essentially an SWT flow with CDRs and SDRs priced considerably higher than Havant to London 'Southern Only'. The complication is that Warblington to Chichester stations all have fares to London routed AP and priced by Southern that undercut the Havant to London route AP priced by SWT.

It's a complete mess, not only is there nine different fares from Havant to London depending on your route and time, but on some of those tickets it is cheaper to buy to Surbiton and get a R1256 travelcard. Add to that the fares from Emsworth, Chichester etc which are cheaper and also valid at Havant, then there is megatrain and Southern's Advance Purchase tickets.....and this is all just for one flow in and out of London.

We do our best but we can hardly be excused for getting it wrong sometimes.

 

[paul1609]

Well given that version of events I am less inclined to be supportive toward the customer, although I can't quite understand why he presented himself at Havant if if he was evading, why didn't he just change from one train to another and wouldn't have presented himself?

I still think a ticket should be available for that route.

Chichester to London route Hassocks/Horsham is the same price as Barnham to London route Any Permitted, but Chichester also has a Route Any Permitted for 18.75. Really, Barnham should have the same options! If they don't want to make Havant a permitted route from Barnham on Any Permitted tickets, then why not introduce a Route Havant ticket for 18.75? It is unreasonable for a passenger to be denied that option just one further station (6 minute journey) down the line.

To be honest Yorkie as a daily commuter from Barnham it would be a very unusual route to take from Barnham to London. Barnham has 2 semi fast trains per hour to Clapham Junction taking just under 1h20 which is around the same as it takes from Havant to Waterloo. Barnham to Havant is basically heading away from London and takes around 15 to 25 mins depending on the number of stops and none of the faster services has an obvious connection on to the Waterloo service. On the other hand changing at Clapham Junction from a Sussex Coast service on Platform 13 to a waterloo bound service takes a lot less than allowed in by journey planners and the frequency onwards to Waterloo is very high.

Even the AP tickets from Chichester belong to the pre Southern Era really since the new Westcoastway service was started I'd say 99% of journeys are much quicker via Horsham.