Are our railways haunted? (ghost stories)

[Stuart Galbraith]

Interesting story...thankyou for sharing it. I have heard that an old deltic 'nimbus' can still be seen on a certain part of the railway network even though it was scrapped in 1980. My grandfather was a midland man, and he used to tell me about the sightings of it. Apparently its appearences were reported 9 times, lets face it, a deltic would now stick out like a sore thumb, and unless a special, would be widely talked about...

I think its now fairly clear that the Nimbus story was just that, a story written for a railway magazine in the early 80s for Christmas. The author of a book on railway ghosts asked for further information on it, and was informed it had been made up. He printed it anyway.:roll:

I know that there is a mansion near where I live called Woodchester that interestingly was never finished, quite why nobody knows, some say ghosts other say the owner ran out of money. Anyway a film crew went there for some reason, and one of the crew heard outside what sound like a steam train travelling in the valley below.
Interestingly the nearest line would be the Stroud valley line, many miles away. Considerably closer would be the old Midlands Nailsworth branch line, which shut and was lifted entirely in the 1960s....

My Grandfather said that that Sapperton was reported to have a Ghost train, but I think it more likely he may have been refering to the military 'Ghost trains' run by the GWR and other companies in WW2 to run senior military officers and VIPs about.

 

[Kernowfem]

'Fraid so. And fly big metal birds through the sky, and ride fast motorbikes, and fly smaller metal birds that loop and roll and 'Done a hundred things you have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung'. So my hand-eye co-ordination and knowedlge of where to be looking while doing all of this is pretty good.

That's where the mis-understanding comes in. Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. I can't make a descision either way, precisely because I am not in posession of all of the facts. However, I can think of many possible rational explanations for what was reported, so why would I go for an irrational solution? If I told you that my car runs by supernatural forces, you could not prove me wrong (because you can't prove a negative). But if it looks like it's got a petrol engine, smells like it's got a petrol engine, and sounds like it goes by means of a petrol engine, wouldn't you naturally conclude that actually, it's just a petrol-driven car like all the others?

Surely, a supernatural explanation for an event should only be assumed if there is no possible natural explanation for that event. So that's why I say enjoy these stories for what they are - stories; but realise that there is almost certainly a boring old rational explanation for the events.

With regard to the driving my piont was this and only this: when driving i would find it impossible to keep my eyes on a fixed point, therefore at sometime OT and the police officer with him would have had to take their eyes off the singnal box at SOME point. As for flying, i wouldnt know, ive never actually been at the controls of a plane.
And once again, i say that either way i draw no conclusion on these tales, i wasnt there and therefore am not at liberty to say either way. This is why i cannot understand your certainty that these tales are just tales. How do we not know there is a truth about them? Science cannot explain everything. there maybe a mundane explanation for some, while others will always remain a mystery, it is because of this that i will always keep an open mind on the subject.....

 

[The 158 Man]

Thanks for replying Captain Speaking.

 

[Old Timer]

CaptainSpeaking
As you have come back with a more positive contribution, I will respond to some of your questions.

I will consider that you have no knowledge of the old Railway infrastructure and therefore will approach my response from there for that reason and by no means through a wish to denigrate.

I also have to ask you to accept that I myself am not given to flights of fantasy, neither do I immediately subscribe any and every happening to the supernatural. To do that within the Railway environment would be to become the laughing stock of the Industry, and would certainly deny one progression upwards.

Working in an environment whereby you can be alone in areas, and in weather conditions, that would do justice to any ghost or horror film one would not survive long if one was a fanciful or emotional person.

Looking for fatalities alone in the dark in a heavy thunderstorm, miles from anywhere with only a lamp to light the darkness is just one example.

Railwaymen do not talk lightly of strange occurrrences, believe me

For clarification, I have no fixed opinion as to what happened. We have a very definite report from two footplate men whom we know were trustworthy, and were convinced at what they had seen.

Could two men not expecting to see the signalbox lit up have had a mass illusion ? I don't know but I would put it at the far end of the unlikely scale.

Was it done for some sort of joke ? I think not judging by the response of the two men.

So addressing your points :

So they saw the lights were on, and when they arrived at the box, it was in darkness. In the flat fenland landscape described, I'd have thought they'd have had the box in sight all the time, and would have noted the change of status from lit to dark. Yet there is no mention of this.?

I thought I had made clear that we had to travel several miles in each direction to cross the dyke.

We both saw the signalbox alight from a distance. Neither the Policeman nor I had any doubt that the signalbox lights were on.

...To determine what was actually going on that night, we need to know more (other sources of light in the box, ladder marks in the ground suggesting entry though an unlatched window, footprints in the surrounding area - and about 10,000 more things SOC teams would check for). A full investigation by the police (obviously not thought worthwhile since there was no damage or danger to trains) was presumably not carried out.

I think that you have not read my post properly. When we arrived to find the signalbox in darkness we were expecting the miscreant(s) either to be hiding, or to have left. When we approached the box steps and there was obviously no way that anyone had passed up or down them, then we immediately concentrated on looking for alternative access egress through the windows and the outside platform.

All the windows were tightly closed, no windows were broken, and there was no evidence of anyone having walked along the point rodding boarding.

So in a matter of a minute or so we ruled out any entry to the signalbox within maybe an hour or maybe a couple of hours given the frost that had formed on the point rodding boarding, the steps and the handrails.

I had anticipated at this stage a rope or some other means of hurried exit. There was none.

....Torchlight can look like oil light from a moving train... ...

Sorry, but with respect that is not the case. Next time you are at a preserved railway at night that has a signalbox lit by oil, then take a look.

There is no way anyone can confuse a torch light, with the light we saw. I have worked in oil lit and electrically lit signalboxes, so I can assure you I know the difference. Again this was a question asked of the footplate crew who were quite clear on this. Their report is confirmed by my and the Policeman's opinions.

A full investigation by the police (obviously not thought worthwhile since there was no damage or danger to trains) was presumably not carried out.

The only investigation carried out was by me and the Policeman. Call it perfunctory if you wish, but both of us established that there had obviously been no entry into the signalbox. Had there been an entry then in view of the seriousness of the situation then we would have withdrawn and waited for the Railway Police team to come and investigate further. We could find no evidence and remember that we WERE expecting to find evidence and indeed were actively now trying to find evidence to back up what had been reported and what we had both seen.

...One could could construct many possible scenarios to explain what OT has posted...

PLease feel free. After nearly 30 years I have no logical explanation. I wish I did because it would be interesting to understand what it was. I have not (knowingly) ascribed this to be a ghostly occurrence, merely one that I cannot explain.

.... but we only have what he has posted. Doubtless there was a great deal more to this (no dissing of OT for that - every story has many aspects, and he gave us just one, as you'd expect).

I accept that you only have what I posted here, however I do expect the respect for my veracity and integrity in this matter. This is not something I posted to fill a void or to create speculation or entertainment. I am quite sure that it is possible to track down the Police records, maybe even the old Railway Control logs for the night.

Those on here who know me will vouch for my integrity I am sure.

Without knowing all the facts, it's impossible to say which one of many possible scenarios explained the happenings of that night. None of them supernatural.

I have given you all the facts that one can possibly give. Remember that when we were dealing with this we had our own preconception of finding someone or at least evidence of entry to the signalbox. There was none, and of course you then have to try to come to some sort of conclusion as to why. Neither of us could, and of course if the Police took the view that their time was being wasted, they would not be very happy. In those days we relied upon the Civil Police to help us out, and in the rural areas it was a regular occurrence for the Police to call in to boxes for a chat and a cup of tea, and we as Supervisors knew this was happening and welcomed it. Certainly we never stopped the practice whereas we would say something if we found others in a signalbox drinking tea and chatting.

You have to look beyond the facts presented in the ghost story, and realise that there may be far more stuff that's relevant that doesn't appear in the story.

I am not aware of any missing "facts" I guess only for the clarification that there was no street or other lighting anywhere that would have created any impression that the signalbox was lit when it was not. If you wish other facts then please do ask and what I remember I will post.

..Can you imagine the state of the justice system if sentence was passed on a suspect on the evidence of one person's account? The court will demand to hear all the facts, from many sources, many of which will be contradictory. It is then the court's job to find the truth. If such sources are not available, guilt would never be assumed on the evidence of one person's account.

We only have one account of this event, presented no doubt (in the interests of entertainment) to big-up the ghost story aspects. Why should our judgement of what is real and what is fantasy be any different here than a court of law would demand, if we really seek the truth rather just accept the story at face value as an unexplainable mystery?

Ain't this just common sense?

I have never purported this to be a ghost story, merely a strange occurrence that could not be explained at the time, or indeed since. I do take issue with the suggestion..."

presented no doubt (in the interests of entertainment) to big-up the ghost story aspects"

... which is both untrue and unfair.

As I have already said, those who know me on here, know my history and know my views on honesty and integrity. If they are reading this thread maybe they will give their opinion, and I believe they would do so honestly and without favour.

That said and with the greatest of respect, I have no interest in seeking out favour from others. What you read is what I am, and any thoughts of seeking popularity amongst a wide audience disappeared many, many years ago.

 

[Kernowfem]

Old Timer.....
Is this signal box still standing? or was it dismantled some time ago?

 

[Old Timer]

The signalbox stood empty for some time before being demolished.

 

[Kernowfem]

Thanks for the information OT.
Are reports still coming in of general sightings/unexplained on the railways, or are railway workers more reluctant to mention them these days?

 

[Trog]

Just a few thoughts on the signal box lights, you say it was a cold and frosty night. That suggests it was also still and clear, the box was near a watercourse so there could also have been some mist/smoke over the water.

Where was the moon in the sky? If it was quite low in the sky could its rays have been bouncing off the water or some other reflective surface and up onto the inside of the signal box roof / ceiling? Passage through a lot of the atmosphere, through mist, and reflecting back off a dull nicotine white ceiling could colour the light. The beam of light off the water into the box, might not show much from the side, whereas the reflected light coming back out of the box would be spread over a much wider angle.

You say the train crew also thought the fire was on, did they say why?
Flickering Light, colour of light or smoke out of the chimmey?

Smoke would be hard to explain, but the flickering could be caused by ripples in the water doing the reflecting, perhaps where a pipe flowed into the main drain. As that could give a localised effect.

Was the box you looked at the disused box from in the same direction as the train had come from, so both you and the train crew were in the same visual alignment?

The effect on a still night could perhaps have been caused by an inversion layer, bending, reflecting or lensing light from a distant source.

Both of these could be stable for a time, then suddenly stop as the moon set, moved behind a cloud, or simply moved across the sky until the angles no longer worked. Or the inversion layer changed or was disrupted by a puff of wind, or more air cooling and moving the boundary layer in the air.

Any possibities?

 

[Old Timer]

Hello Trog
Yes of course there are various possibilities.

There was no water courses near the signalbox it backed onto fields.

There was no mist just a cold sharp frosty night..

I honestly cannot recall if there were clouds but I think maybe not as I remember it being very cold,and there was a frost as well.

There was no comment made about the fire being different to any other, so I guess it was probably a red glow.

We looked at the box from the opposite side of the line to that of the train crew, so our line of vision was slightly different but not much.

As I said I still have no fixed opinion. I find it hard to imagine the box being haunted and there was certainly no previous or I believe subsequent reports.

All I can go on is the footplate crew who were of the view that the box was manned and looked as if it were open normally but this made no sense to them and they made the decision to stop and query the matter. Of course the next box knew that the box in question was closed and hence the response that developed.

 

[FlyingScot]

I think its now fairly clear that the Nimbus story was just that, a story written for a railway magazine in the early 80s for Christmas. The author of a book on railway ghosts asked for further information on it, and was informed it had been made up. He printed it anyway.:roll:

I know that there is a mansion near where I live called Woodchester that interestingly was never finished, quite why nobody knows, some say ghosts other say the owner ran out of money. Anyway a film crew went there for some reason, and one of the crew heard outside what sound like a steam train travelling in the valley below.
Interestingly the nearest line would be the Stroud valley line, many miles away. Considerably closer would be the old Midlands Nailsworth branch line, which shut and was lifted entirely in the 1960s....

My Grandfather said that that Sapperton was reported to have a Ghost train, but I think it more likely he may have been refering to the military 'Ghost trains' run by the GWR and other companies in WW2 to run senior military officers and VIPs about.

Well I made up a story about a man who hates thomas the tank and he scrapped merddin emrys and then at tinsley he saw it with a thomas face on!hock:

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Here here!! I totaly agree with you about OT stories, id really like to hear some more if he has any. Like i said in a previous post, i reckon CS is a closet believer...he loves this thread so much he cant help coming back
Back on topic, i have been told that a steam engine can still be heard thundering through hallington station in lincolnshire, even though the louth to bardney line closed over 40 years ago..anyone else heard this one?

Thanks

 

[The 158 Man]

Old Timer, what speed was the loco doing as it passed the dis-used signal box? Is it possible that the train was going fast enough to produce a trick of the light?

Also, (apologies if you've already said this, but), was it a straight section of track, or curved etc?

EDIT: - Just re-read the original post. The Driver also said that someone was seen within the box. What kind of person? British Rail employee? And what were they doing? Looking out of the window? Pulling levers? Lighting the fire ()?

 

[Southern]

Enjoying the stories, keep 'em coming...going to throw in one of my own, concerning Crystal Palace. Now, it was mid morning one Saturday and I was on the train to Victoria. It was in about this area, http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/2548978408_6206e8b9e5.jpg?v=0, that I caught a glimpse of a small, fair haired child in an old fashioned blue jacket with gold buttons. The easy explanation would be "just a kid messing about" but he was very young, couldn't have been anymore than 5. He would have had to get away from his parents (did they care? was he on his own?) and then walk down to the hole, past the signal, in full view of the driver. It's something that's stuck with me to this very day (I was only about 8 or 9 at the time) and I can still see him standing there now in my mind. Another story is of an old train bricked up in the Palace Park, complete with dead passengers and crew. You can find similar stories at this address, http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/reports/underground.php; The "Grinning Man" one gave me the chills, lol!.

I believe that there is something out there...they say that children and animals can see things adults can't and maybe their right.

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer, what speed was the loco doing as it passed the dis-used signal box? Is it possible that the train was going fast enough to produce a trick of the light?

Also, (apologies if you've already said this, but), was it a straight section of track, or curved etc?

EDIT: - Just re-read the original post. The Driver also said that someone was seen within the box. What kind of person? British Rail employee? And what were they doing? Looking out of the window? Pulling levers? Lighting the fire ()?

Stood at the levers, which was why it appeared so strange, when the box was expected to have been switched out. I remember there was a short debate between the two and they reached the conclusion that something was "not right" and hence why they stopped.

You have to remember that they would have looked very foolish indeed if the box had been manned up especially, but they knew the box had been switched out because of the closure of the diverging route, and they had passed through there all week with the box switched out.

Speed-wise about 40/45 I would guess. No frontal headlights just simply a reporting number alight, so no reflections from loco lights.

 

[ShamMan]

Oooooo interesting picture!! it could be a trick of the light, but all the same it gave me goose bumps!!! Did you see anything when you took the picture??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Didn't notice anything when i took the photo, only noticed when i was resizing... It gave me goose bumps too!

Cheers,

Richard.

 

[Kernowfem]

Oooooo interesting picture!! it could be a trick of the light, but all the same it gave me goose bumps!!! Did you see anything when you took the picture??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Didn't notice anything when i took the photo, only noticed when i was resizing... It gave me goose bumps too!

Cheers,

Richard.

Thanks again for submitting it

 

[class313]

That was 47216 which was renumbered 47299 after a psychic "saw" it being involved in an accident, THEN it was involved in a fatal accident here-
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wrawby1983.pdf

I knew I had seen that before http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/Oubliette/47299.html Very interesting. I know there was a story about a 'screaming spectre' at Farringdon station. It was apparently a woman who was killed there, and you can still hear her screaming sometimes, I am positive I have heard her, but it could have just been a baby or something.
http://www.shadyoldlady.com/location.php?loc=13

 

[Navviboy]

Stood at the levers, which was why it appeared so strange, when the box was expected to have been switched out. I remember there was a short debate between the two and they reached the conclusion that something was "not right" and hence why they stopped.

You have to remember that they would have looked very foolish indeed if the box had been manned up especially, but they knew the box had been switched out because of the closure of the diverging route, and they had passed through there all week with the box switched out.

Speed-wise about 40/45 I would guess. No frontal headlights just simply a reporting number alight, so no reflections from loco lights.

Thanks for sharing the story and defending the existance of the unexplained OT.

To everyone else, I have shared many a discussion with OT elsewhere on line. We don't always see eye to eye but I CAN tell you that he is a bl**dy fine railwayman who knows his onioins. That is a RAILWAYMAN - someone to whom the railway is a way of life and who understands it in all it's aspects, not someone who just works for the industry.

There are more things in heaven and earth... and on the railway..............!

 

[Royston Vasey]

I knew I had seen that before http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/Oubliette/47299.html

I've read that piece having seen the link from the excellent www.Class47.co.uk


Anyone else think this photo (from that site) has something, well, weird about it? The white and reddy-brown splodges on the image are so odd!

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v2.php?img=1186051133211

 

[Metroland]

I love a good ghost yarn like anyone else. My particular favourite stories being the black dog of Shap and the ghost planes over the peak district.

But is there any real evidence? I think not.

The most convincing ghost story, at least in the UK, is probably the Enfield Poltergeist. But even that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

UFOs are another one, I did once see a triangular craft in the Peak district (an area known for it) but I'm still convinced it was a plane.

Some of the things listed above by Old timer are proven to be rubbish like remote viewing, which was just cold war horseplay designed to worry the other side. There are some interesting experiments with cold fusion, dark matter etc, but an awful lot of physics remains theoretical in any case and our understanding is still somewhat limited.

Cold logic would donate that animals could be ghosts as well as humans. Yet, most of us tend to sit with plates of bones and have bits of animals in our fridges, yet, they don't come back to haunt us - yet so much superstition is attached to the bones of the long pig.

As for railway ghosts, I have supposed to have worked in haunted locations, but am not aware of any serious evidence. Railwaymen like a good bit of banter, and there's nothing like a wind up.

The best scientific evidence for ghosts is either magnetic or infrasound disturbances. We all create our own reality and the mind is known to filter a lot of things out - both in terms of sound and vision, feelings and touch as well as put things in.

http://gizmodo.com/5394069/scientifically-haunted-room-shows-that-ghosts-are-only-in-your-head

The best case against ghosts and aliens is lack of really good video. Most of us carry around mini video cameras in phones as well as dedicated video cameras, which often have better quality that broadcast TV cameras even as late as the mid 1990s. There is also CCTV fitted just about everywhere. But I have yet to see anything really good video wise. With all the cameras pointing at everything it's shockingly poor.

But, human beings have always thought of themselves as special, and think they are masters of the planet and have someone in the sky either looking after or against our interests.

We divide the planet up and pretend to own things, including animals. We apply perception to many of the decisions we make as well as our economic systems (for example the perceived value of gold or a celebrities autograph). We tend to think we can solve all problems (some people regard science fiction as fact, for example) and are destined for something different when we die. The reality is, we are a slightly advanced ape, clever, but not that advanced to avoid ego, urges, warfare, destructive technology and poor decision making - which can be seen all around us every day. There seems to be an inbuilt tendency to believe in higher forces and the paranormal and mystical beings because we don't know all the answers aided and abetted by folklore and tales. For example, just recently, it was admitted the whole notion of the Bermuda triangle was the product of exaggeration by an author wishing to sell books. While a lot fun, there is actually very little evidence for any of it.

 

[Burkitt]

With regard to Helen Duncan, the ever reliable Wikipedia puts things a little differently:

I would also advise that Wikipedia is hardly the most reliable source of information, and it is starting to gain a less than welcome reputation as a site where "facts" as written are not always what they purport to be.

Unlike yourself, even Wikipedia are prepared to admit that they cannot guarantee the accuracy of the content and I would suggest you may wish to read what Librarians and academics think of it.

Internet forums really need some standard means of denoting sarcasm, to avoid even the most obvious examples going straight over people's heads.

 

[Old Timer]

There is no sarcasm there whatsoever, simply a commentary to demonstrate that Wikipedia is not "the ever reliable" as was suggested.

It is far from reliable as it is open to editing and the partisan influence of opinion over fact.

The original comment about Wikipedia was made simply because Wikipedia appeared to provide support to an argument. In actual fact it did not do so as it was factually wrong and left out very relevant material facts, which demonstrated thet thrust of the article to not only be wrong but to be also partisan, when viewed with possession of the correct facts.

The Helen Duncan entry is a perfect example of such partisan behaviour within Wikipedia, and why not only Wikipedia itself but also scientists and librarians treat it with great care. The writer of the article suggested that sheets had been used in a seance and made this a key point in suggesting fraud, yet in the Court records it was admitted that despite a detailed search, no sheets were found. Now the ommission of THAT very pertinent fact, which contradicts the suggestion made of fraud, is sufficiently significant as to alter the basis of the whole article, yet it has been clearly left out in order to make a partisan point which reflects the writer's opinion not fact.

The whole article reeks of suggesting fraud and suggests that this was the reason for the prosecution despite the fact that the so called "sheets" were dismissed early on and never featured again in the trial. A proper examination of the real facts prove this assertion to be incorrect.

 

[Yank 119]

Fact : the a/c was not totally destroyed as an analysis of the photographs confirms ;
Fact : recovery started straight away ;
Fact : Eastern Airlines did re-use parts from the crashed a/c
Fact : no-one was seen inside the microwave
Fact : as i have already pointed out, a VICE CHAIRMAN of Eastern Airlines saw one of the deceased crew during a flight ;
Fact : Eastern Airlines had a series of documented reports from various flight staff who had seen the deceased, including a senior Captain ;
Fact : Eastern Airlines recovered the components that had been reused

Thankfully this will have been you last word. Frankly I am getting somewhat tired of having to correct these things.

I can vouch for this. My father's close friend, son of the Chief of Pilots of Eastern Airlines, has one of the altimeters off of that aircraft. I've held it, it exists. It was apparently reused and then removed again after all the activity.

 

[Burkitt]

There is no sarcasm there whatsoever, simply a commentary to demonstrate that Wikipedia is not "the ever reliable" as was suggested.

It is far from reliable as it is open to editing and the partisan influence of opinion over fact.

The original comment about Wikipedia was made simply because Wikipedia appeared to provide support to an argument. In actual fact it did not do so as it was factually wrong and left out very relevant material facts, which demonstrated thet thrust of the article to not only be wrong but to be also partisan, when viewed with possession of the correct facts.

The Helen Duncan entry is a perfect example of such partisan behaviour within Wikipedia, and why not only Wikipedia itself but also scientists and librarians treat it with great care. The writer of the article suggested that sheets had been used in a seance and made this a key point in suggesting fraud, yet in the Court records it was admitted that despite a detailed search, no sheets were found. Now the ommission of THAT very pertinent fact, which contradicts the suggestion made of fraud, is sufficiently significant as to alter the basis of the whole article, yet it has been clearly left out in order to make a partisan point which reflects the writer's opinion not fact.

The whole article reeks of suggesting fraud and suggests that this was the reason for the prosecution despite the fact that the so called "sheets" were dismissed early on and never featured again in the trial. A proper examination of the real facts prove this assertion to be incorrect.

This really isn't getting through is it? I was being sarcastic when I described Wikipedia as "ever reliable". My sarcasm went straight over your head (twice now) hence the need for a means of denoting sarcasm.
Everyone knows Wikipedia is unreliable. If it was a trusted source I'd hardly have needed to make the "ever reliable" comment, would I?

 

[Old Timer]

Your exact words were...

With regard to Helen Duncan, the ever reliable Wikipedia puts things a little differently:

Now I may be slow but I doubt anyone else would read anything sarcastic in that sentence, rather they would consider you were using the article to disprove the point I had made, which it all intents and purposes what has happened.

If you now argue it is sarcasm, well two points, firstly sarcasm is the last port of call of someone with a losing argument, and secondly if it WAS sarcasm then it is VERY subtle, indeed so subtle that it appears to have gone over everyone's head.

I wonder what others make of it.

 

[37401]

Ive got a shot of 37069 and there is a light in the cab, there was no light behind me at the time, odd and spooky

 

[Kernowfem]

Ive got a shot of 37069 and there is a light in the cab, there was no light behind me at the time, odd and spooky

Would you share it with us?? sounds like an interesting picture

 

[37401]

Would you share it with us?? sounds like an interesting picture

yup just looking for it as we speak

 

[Kernowfem]

yup just looking for it as we speak

Great stuff, look forward to looking at it

 

[37401]

Great stuff, look forward to looking at it

found it: http://victorialine67.locos.fpic.co.uk/p62048350.html

there was no light reflecting from behind either