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Arriva Rail North DOO

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northwichcat

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I know you're not.

You did have the inside scoop through the previous regime, inciuding access to the shed. Which has dried up. Unless I am mistaken.

I don't know what you're talking about.

And I'll repeat as you seem to think one day is daily - it's a weekly event. Not a daily event. Daily events happen every day or every working day. Now for the general public one day a week is not a daily occurrence. No matter how you try to spin it.

Maybe it's just because I've worked in an office environment that I would only say all daily tasks are completed if they are completed on every day they are supposed to - whether that's literally every day or just every working day. If something prevents them from happening one day then that prevents the daily tasks being completed that day whether it's a power cut, internet failure, employee unable to get in to the office for whatever reason or just incompetence.
 
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yorksrob

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I know you're not.

You did have the inside scoop through the previous regime, inciuding access to the shed. Which has dried up. Unless I am mistaken.

And I'll repeat as you seem to think one day is daily - it's a weekly event. Not a daily event. Daily events happen every day or every working day. Now for the general public one day a week is not a daily occurrence. No matter how you try to spin it.

I don't think it behoves anyone to trivialise the disruptive effect this action over consecutive saturdays is having on ordinary passengers.
 

northwichcat

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I don't think it helps to over dramatise the effects of it either.

No-one's over dramatised them. You just didn't understand what I was getting at and then you went off on one - there was no need to start making up claims about something you thought I had access to because you didn't like what I posted, it has no relevance to this thread and was an outright false information.
 

PR1Berske

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Watching a friend's 40th birthday party in Manchester tonight dwindle in numbers because those of us from Preston can't get back home as a result of the strike underlines what @jcollins has been saying. In small numbers, bit each and every week, the strike hits the only day of leisure many working people have. Multiply over weeks, months, how many day off Saturdays have been ruined?
 

DaveB10780

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I don't think it behoves anyone to trivialise the disruptive effect this action over consecutive saturdays is having on ordinary passengers.
Exactly the RMT lack of concern for the effect their actions have on ordinary people is amazing. They do not care one little jot, all about union power not practical solutions.
 

js1000

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Watching a friend's 40th birthday party in Manchester tonight dwindle in numbers because those of us from Preston can't get back home as a result of the strike underlines what @jcollins has been saying. In small numbers, bit each and every week, the strike hits the only day of leisure many working people have. Multiply over weeks, months, how many day off Saturdays have been ruined?
It's a problem. Manchester is particularly badly affected by a reduced Saturday service given it's a 24/7 city and a large catchment area in the North West. I can't see what the end game is here other than strikes continuing over the next few years and Northern gradually introducing DOO trains. Also, I suspect the strikes on a Saturday help to improve Northern's woeful PPM.

If strikes become more commonplace then the DfT would be prudent to discuss opportunities with TPE to cover some stations on certain routes. I'm sure First would be interested in increasing revenue even if it meant 5-10 minutes on a journey. For instance, TPE evening services to Manchester Airport call at Mauldeth Road and Burnage but not East Didsbury, Gatley or Heald Green. I know there is an admin and potential timetabling issue but if there is passing trains on existing certain routes then it should be explored.
 
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Robertj21a

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It's a problem. Manchester is particularly badly affected by a reduced Saturday service given it's a 24/7 city and a large catchment area in the North West. I can't see what the end game is here other than strikes continuing over the next few years and Northern gradually introducing DOO trains. Also, I suspect the strikes on a Saturday help to improve Northern's woeful PPM.

If strikes become more commonplace then the DfT would be prudent to discuss opportunities with TPE to cover some stations on certain routes. I'm sure First would be interested in increasing revenue even if it meant 5-10 minutes on a journey. For instance, TPE evening services to Manchester Airport call at Mauldeth Road and Burnage but not East Didsbury, Gatley or Heald Green. I know there is an admin and potential timetabling issue but if there is passing trains on existing certain routes then it should be explored.


Do you think the rail staff are prepared for 'strikes continuing over the next few years' ?
 

nr758123

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If strikes become more commonplace then the DfT would be prudent to discuss opportunities with TPE to cover some stations on certain routes. I'm sure First would be interested in increasing revenue even if it meant 5-10 minutes on a journey. For instance, TPE evening services to Manchester Airport call at Mauldeth Road and Burnage but not East Didsbury, Gatley or Heald Green. I know there is an admin and potential timetabling issue but if there is passing trains on existing certain routes then it should be explored.

TPE aren't providing much of a service at the stations they are supposed to serve, at least not one which resembles the published timetable. It's difficult to see how they would want to provide a service at stations between Piccadilly and the airport when they can't provide a proper service at the smaller stations between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds.
 
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I thought it had been agreed previously that there was no evidence to support this theory ?

From the RSSB

DOO(P) does not create additional undesired events but may increase the likelihood of an event occurring or increase the severity of its consequence...

That's before the countess scenarios in which a guard makes a difference, many of which will go unnoticed by those who don't work these trains. Added to that the very real issue of driver work overload. Of course, I accept that you chaps know best, so I'll leave you to it.
 

Geeves

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Even if TPE did call at additional stops as a replacement for Northern, Northern would be well within their rights to claim for revenue extraction an more than likely get it all back. TPE ends up with nothing but more delays and more delay repay.

Services are definitely getting more sparce. Today we ran 695 trains (apparently) from the often quoted "800 strike services a day".

I'm really interested to see what happens when the Bolton an Wigan lines reopen an the bus replacements end on the strike days.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think I'd worry too much about Mauldeth Road, Burnage and East Didsbury in this case - they have enough alternative services in the form of the 50 bus for the former two and it and Metrolink for the latter. Gatley and Heald Green maybe.
 

londonmidland

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Not sure if this was planned or last minute but National Rail Enquires have just tweeted that there will be a reduced service for today (Sunday) across the North West due to a shortage of train drivers.

Northern haven’t said anything yet but I’m not sure if their twitter account is managed 24/7.
 

Killingworth

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Tom Quinne

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I went off on a tangent but that doesn't mean I don't understand the meaning of daily. First dictionary definition of daily is 'adj done every day or every working day' so if something you do daily requires you to travel by train to do it then the RMT is preventing it, hence the RMT are preventing people going about their daily business - FACT.



A few years back I was unfortunate to end up in a city on a day when an EDL splinter group were protesting about approval being given for a new mosque. That resulted in me checking when protests were due to take place and avoiding cities on said dates but it has only affected my plans once or twice in the few years since. The RMT strikes have affected my plans on around 10 days this year alone, so the RMT strikes are having a much greater impact in putting me (and presumably others) off visiting cities.



Now what rubbish are you talking about? I'm not a Northern employee and never have been so I've never had access to any staff only websites.

I could of sworn you claimed to be a Northern Guard, seems that was a bare faced lie then ?
 

northwichcat

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I could of sworn you claimed to be a Northern Guard, seems that was a bare faced lie then ?

I have never claimed to work for any TOC. Some posters on here have made wrong presumptions about me because I know more than a typical passenger but if I see any posts where someone claims I am rail staff I reply saying I'm not.

You may have confused me with @Moonshot who does claim to be a guard but disagrees with many RMT members on here.
 

HH

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To be honest, we're talking about such a comparatively small number of trains, I'd be happy to compromise by specifying a second member of staff on them all.
It might be a small number of trains, but it makes a bigger difference to numbers of staff required (due to cover requirements) and delays experienced. On Northern, costs are important, because costs are higher than revenue.

I'm interested as to what the difference is between this dispute and others. We've seen OBMs introduced on GTR; the AGA strikes didn't last very long; even SWR seems to be running down. Northern, however, is still going strong.
 

yorksrob

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It might be a small number of trains, but it makes a bigger difference to numbers of staff required (due to cover requirements) and delays experienced. On Northern, costs are important, because costs are higher than revenue.

I'm interested as to what the difference is between this dispute and others. We've seen OBMs introduced on GTR; the AGA strikes didn't last very long; even SWR seems to be running down. Northern, however, is still going strong.

It seems to be a case of Northern passengers getting the mucky end of the stick as usual, presumably because someone in London has decided that the subsidy is too high.

I noted a while back that on the South Western thread the RMT had apparently offered to compromise over a Greater Anglia style agreement with the driver opening the doors and the guard closing them. I still don't know whether this offer has been extended to the Northern dispute. Perhaps someone could enlighten us.
 

CN75

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It seems to be a case of Northern passengers getting the mucky end of the stick as usual, presumably because someone in London has decided that the subsidy is too high.

I noted a while back that on the South Western thread the RMT had apparently offered to compromise over a Greater Anglia style agreement with the driver opening the doors and the guard closing them. I still don't know whether this offer has been extended to the Northern dispute. Perhaps someone could enlighten us.

Northern area customers have had artificially lower fares for years as a form of social subsidy, on top of subsidy payments generally to all the TOCs who have run the Northernrailway. The Northern area has also had old trains and low investment in infrastructure. If the North gets new trains, why shouldn’t it get the DOO method of operation widespread in ‘the South’ from a cost perspective?

Northern’s new trains should make a big difference to attract customers. If Northern manage to move some of the guards to stations jobs once the dispute concludes, the station environments could become much more welcoming and feel safer, which should also increase customers. DOO is simply the unappealing part of the total Northern franchise investment package that otherwise everyone, including the RMT, has been demanding for years.

There hasn’t been any change to Arriva carrying through their contract which is to run at least 50% if the Northern trains with only the driver having any operational involvement (DOO) or requirement to be there for the train to move. The Greater Anglia arrangement means drivers open and close the doors with the guard being able to close them in exceptional circumstances. However only a small part of the Greater Anglia network has guards and those that do mostly operate on branch lines. The ‘deal’ allows Greater Anglia to run without a guard from Liverpool Street on mainline intercity trains when they cannot currently, which is surely something that will make a major performance benefit to the operator.
 

yorksrob

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Northern area customers have had artificially lower fares for years as a form of social subsidy, on top of subsidy payments generally to all the TOCs who have run the Northernrailway. The Northern area has also had old trains and low investment in infrastructure. If the North gets new trains, why shouldn’t it get the DOO method of operation widespread in ‘the South’ from a cost perspective?

Northern’s new trains should make a big difference to attract customers. If Northern manage to move some of the guards to stations jobs once the dispute concludes, the station environments could become much more welcoming and feel safer, which should also increase customers. DOO is simply the unappealing part of the total Northern franchise investment package that otherwise everyone, including the RMT, has been demanding for years.

There hasn’t been any change to Arriva carrying through their contract which is to run at least 50% if the Northern trains with only the driver having any operational involvement (DOO) or requirement to be there for the train to move. The Greater Anglia arrangement means drivers open and close the doors with the guard being able to close them in exceptional circumstances. However only a small part of the Greater Anglia network has guards and those that do mostly operate on branch lines. The ‘deal’ allows Greater Anglia to run without a guard from Liverpool Street on mainline intercity trains when they cannot currently, which is surely something that will make a major performance benefit to the operator.

In which case, why has a deal been reached in Greater Anglia on this basis, which seems to involve a substantial shift over to drivers operating the doors but not in Northern ?

I'm interested in what Anglia have got which is breaking the log jam that Northern haven't and why haven't Northern got that, not tired arguments about subsidy being trotted out.
 

Tom Quinne

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I have never claimed to work for any TOC. Some posters on here have made wrong presumptions about me because I know more than a typical passenger but if I see any posts where someone claims I am rail staff I reply saying I'm not.

You may have confused me with @Moonshot who does claim to be a guard but disagrees with many RMT members on here.


A Mod has messaged my regards my post, i posted in good faith that I recalled you said you were employed by northern.

HOWEVER, if I am wrong I humbly apologise for any offence caused.
 

northwichcat

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Northern area customers have had artificially lower fares for years as a form of social subsidy, on top of subsidy payments generally to all the TOCs who have run the Northernrailway. The Northern area has also had old trains and low investment in infrastructure. If the North gets new trains, why shouldn’t it get the DOO method of operation widespread in ‘the South’ from a cost perspective?

PTE fares were artificially low but that wasn't exclusive to the North - the West Midlands benefited as well but that has changed in recent years and only affected certain flows. Also, while off-peak PTE fares are still lower on average than non-PTE fares the Northern ones have had some of the strictest evening peak restrictions on any local route. Train fares to/from London are high, unless you live close enough to London to benefit from the cheap contactless fares (which can be even cheaper than PTE subsided fares in some cases) but ignoring London and PTE fares there's no real difference between fares in the North and fares elsewhere.

There hasn’t been any change to Arriva carrying through their contract which is to run at least 50% if the Northern trains with only the driver having any operational involvement (DOO) or requirement to be there for the train to move. The Greater Anglia arrangement means drivers open and close the doors with the guard being able to close them in exceptional circumstances. However only a small part of the Greater Anglia network has guards and those that do mostly operate on branch lines. The ‘deal’ allows Greater Anglia to run without a guard from Liverpool Street on mainline intercity trains when they cannot currently, which is surely something that will make a major performance benefit to the operator.

Anglia operate services which are more rural than some of Northern's most rural services, as well as long distance trains which have longer formations than Northern operate on any service. A blanket solution for Anglia is not appropriate and neither is it appropriate to say Anglia do x so Northern should also do it.
 

LOL The Irony

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No-one's over dramatised them. You just didn't understand what I was getting at and then you went off on one - there was no need to start making up claims about something you thought I had access to because you didn't like what I posted, it has no relevance to this thread and was an outright false information.
Just ignore 142 Pilot. They seem to have a knack of being controversial.

Watching a friend's 40th birthday party in Manchester tonight dwindle in numbers because those of us from Preston can't get back home as a result of the strike underlines what @jcollins has been saying. In small numbers, bit each and every week, the strike hits the only day of leisure many working people have. Multiply over weeks, months, how many day off Saturdays have been ruined?
Agreed. Must be several Saturdays by this point.
 

LowLevel

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A Mod has messaged my regards my post, i posted in good faith that I recalled you said you were employed by northern.

HOWEVER, if I am wrong I humbly apologise for any offence caused.

They're a member of a rail user group hence getting rather hot under the collar about the whole affair and I reckon providing the highest number of individual posts over the last few hundred pages of this topic. To be fair I don't think they've ever claimed to work for Northern.

Personally as a guard I have taken to just getting on with being a decent guard and not posting on these threads unless something really gets on my wick because it does nothing for my blood pressure!
 

CN75

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In which case, why has a deal been reached in Greater Anglia on this basis, which seems to involve a substantial shift over to drivers operating the doors but not in Northern ?

I'm interested in what Anglia have got which is breaking the log jam that Northern haven't and why haven't Northern got that, not tired arguments about subsidy being trotted out.

Greater Anglia’s network is already majority DOO. Guards are used on the outer sections and branches where NSE didn’t manage to extend DOO in the 1990s for one reason or another. AGA started their dispute saying they would have a conductor in every train that had one (a small overall percentage) but wanted driver door operation and the train to be able to run without a conductor if necessary. The RMT kicked off and after a series of strikes in which AGA ran 100% of their normal service anyway, a compromise was done. AGA decided it wasn’t worth continuing the dispute, whilst Arriva Northern do not have a choice.

The two companies, and their dependence on guards, are not easily compared.
 

yorksrob

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Greater Anglia’s network is already majority DOO. Guards are used on the outer sections and branches where NSE didn’t manage to extend DOO in the 1990s for one reason or another. AGA started their dispute saying they would have a conductor in every train that had one (a small overall percentage) but wanted driver door operation and the train to be able to run without a conductor if necessary. The RMT kicked off and after a series of strikes in which AGA ran 100% of their normal service anyway, a compromise was done. AGA decided it wasn’t worth continuing the dispute, whilst Arriva Northern do not have a choice.

The two companies, and their dependence on guards, are not easily compared.

I think it would be perfectly possible to say that "Northern will move to 50% of trains with drivers operating all doors, but a conductor will be on board 100% of trains".

That would mirror the Anglian compromise in the Northern context.
 

Lemmy99uk

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In which case, why has a deal been reached in Greater Anglia on this basis, which seems to involve a substantial shift over to drivers operating the doors but not in Northern ?

I'm interested in what Anglia have got which is breaking the log jam that Northern haven't and why haven't Northern got that, not tired arguments about subsidy being trotted out.

David Brown has said that Northern wish to explore an Anglia type deal but the RMT refuse to discuss it.
 

yorksrob

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David Brown has said that Northern wish to explore an Anglia type deal but the RMT refuse to discuss it.

If that is the case, then the RMT action is unjustified.

(I expect someone to come along and say that that isn't what Northern have been offering).
 

Robertj21a

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I think it would be perfectly possible to say that "Northern will move to 50% of trains with drivers operating all doors, but a conductor will be on board 100% of trains".

That would mirror the Anglian compromise in the Northern context.

So, pretty well the Southern 'DOO + OBS' solution that we keep coming back to !
 
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