Arriva Rail North DOO

[CN75]

I think it would be perfectly possible to say that "Northern will move to 50% of trains with drivers operating all doors, but a conductor will be on board 100% of trains".

That would mirror the Anglian compromise in the Northern context.

This would prevent Arriva staffing the Northern stations with displaced guards and continuing to be subject to absence of a guard causing delays or cancellations. The new Northern trains do not need operational guards to close the doors and the entire network now has the radio system required for safe DOO.

 

[LowLevel]

This would prevent Arriva staffing the Northern stations with displaced guards and continuing to be subject to absence of a guard causing delays or cancellations. The new Northern trains do not need operational guards to close the doors and the entire network now has the radio system required for safe DOO.

Even when said radio doesn't work as happened again on a Northern ECS service the other week

 

[pemma]

They're a member of a rail user group hence getting rather hot under the collar about the whole affair and I reckon providing the highest number of individual posts over the last few hundred pages of this topic. To be fair I don't think they've ever claimed to work for Northern.

Personally as a guard I have taken to just getting on with being a decent guard and not posting on these threads unless something really gets on my wick because it does nothing for my blood pressure!

Who says I'm a member of a rail user group? I actually don't agree with some of what the local rail user group comes up with as the ideas have a strong pensioner led focus but saying that they do some good work - like getting passenger count information which is a lot more useful than ticket sales information.

If this thread annoys you then you might not want to look at what's being posted on Twitter regarding the dispute. To say passengers are angry is an understatement and it's obvious from the Twitter profiles of those who are calling the RMT and guards words which can't be posted on here are from a variety of different backgrounds from working class warehouse workers and shelf stackers to members of the Conservative party, with it being the former not the latter who are posting the most abusive posts. There's also a number of people supporting the dispute from guards to the wives of guards to those who are pro-trade union, with some of the latter knowing absolutely nothing about the dispute. In the case of the latter they are posting false information, such as claims mass redundancies expected at Northern in the next few weeks and then being abusive and blocking people when they are told things like Northern have guaranteed all guards will remain on the guard grade and get annual pay reviews until the end of the franchise.

 

[yorksrob]

So, pretty well the Southern 'DOO + OBS' solution that we keep coming back to !

If that second person is guaranteed on the train (I don't know the details).

The RMT would also be right to insist on the same pay and conditions.

 

[yorksrob]

This would prevent Arriva staffing the Northern stations with displaced guards and continuing to be subject to absence of a guard causing delays or cancellations. The new Northern trains do not need operational guards to close the doors and the entire network now has the radio system required for safe DOO.

I'd rather the second person was on the train than on the station. I wouldn't mind seeing the additional staffed stations dropped as a quid pro quo.

As for guards/conductors not turning up, we've lived with this risk for 180 years, I don't see why its critical to change it now.

 

[pemma]

RMT are again trying to stop all TOCs (including Northern) using managers as guards during strikes by pointing to issues with the SWR contingency guards. Also aren't some contingency guards non-managerial office based staff?

As Northern and South Western guards strike again in fight for safety RMT raises new safety warning over use of phoney guards.

As Northern and South Western Railway guards strike again this weekend rail union RMT has raised new safety warnings with the regulator over the use of inexperienced, under-trained managers on fat bounty payments acting as guards to try and break the action.
Members on South Western Railway will complete five days of rock-solid strikes in their latest phase of action this weekend while RMT members on Northern Rail will embark on their 33rd day of action in the fight for safe, secure and accessible rail operation for all.

In a letter to the safety regulator, the Office of Road and Rail, in relation to this week’s SWR action RMT General Secretary Mick Cash points out the following serious breaches that could have had severe consequences:

• 2K31 12:57 Waterloo to Waterloo (rounder) ready to start signal given by a Contingency Guard (PUG) to a driver on a red signal at St Margaret’s .
• 1A29 11:23 Waterloo to Farnham a short stop was in place at Surbiton station, a 12 car train on a 10 car platform.
• 2C61 19:20 Waterloo to Reading ready to start signal given by a Contingency Guard (PUG) to a driver on a red signal at Twickenham.
• 1T57 18:09 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour ready to start signal given by a Contingency Guard (PUG) to a driver on a red signal at Fareham.

Further to that I have a reports coming in that due to the signal failure between Woking and Surbiton trains have been re-routed via the new line (Surbiton to Guildford via Cobham). The Contingency Guards (PUG) are not trained on this route and therefore have no route knowledge. The company are quoting to my reps, “that as long as the Driver knows the route it is fine”.

It is not ‘fine’ as the ORR will know, and these significant breaches of safety have to cease.

I am also raising the concern that incidents are not being reported in the correct procedural order and that when the Contingency Guards (PUG) are subsequently asked they are claiming that they didn’t know or where not aware of the said incident – my members have faced disciplinaries in these circumstances previously.

This is what we are aware of, there may very well be more and worse.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“It is appalling that rather than settling their disputes these train companies are prepared to throw huge sums of money at a scab-army of volunteer managers who are a clear danger to passengers. It’s about time the safety regulator, who is funded by the private train companies, stopped letting the piper call the tune and took action to stop this dangerous nonsense.

“The continuing action by RMT members on both SWR and ARN is about putting public safety before private profit while the train companies, with the connivance of the government and the safety bodies, are prepared to rip up the rule book to bulldoze through their plans for driver only operation.

“Instead of tolerating the clear and present danger on our railways the train operators should be round the table with the union negotiating agreements that reflect the best practice in the industry and put safety first.”

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-raises-new-safety-warning-over-use-of-phoney-guards/

 

[LOL The Irony]

RMT are again trying to stop all TOCs (including Northern) using managers as guards during strikes by pointing to issues with the SWR contingency guards.

I wonder why... And they say these strikes are for public safety .

 

[Carlisle]

I'd rather the second person was on the train than on the station. I wouldn't mind seeing the additional staffed stations dropped as a quid pro quo.

It may or may not be the best option to staff all stations rather than trains on certain short haul suburban routes, but shouldn’t that be a decision left to the industry professionals and public consultation rather than one imposed by the RMT alone

 

[yorkie]

The RMT are increasingly alienating themselves from the general public and anyone who is capable of thinking objectively and pragmatically.

They are completely out of touch with reality, totally unreasonable, and just about anyone can see through their ludicrous propaganda.

 

[yorksrob]

It may or may not be the best option to staff all stations rather than trains on certain short haul suburban routes, but shouldn’t that be a decision left to the industry professionals and public consultation rather than one imposed by the RMT alone

I'm not particularly fussed how the decision is made, so long as the trains run.

As a passenger, the things I need from the franchise are the enhanced train services and increased capacity.

More staffed stations are a "nice to have", but are in no way critical to what I need of the train service.

 

[Bungle965]

I don't think I'd worry too much about Mauldeth Road, Burnage and East Didsbury in this case - they have enough alternative services in the form of the 50 bus for the former two and it and Metrolink for the latter. Gatley and Heald Green maybe.

That would be fine if Northern had ticket acceptance in place for that route, which they don't.
Sam

 

[LOL The Irony]

The RMT are increasingly alienating themselves from the general public and anyone who is capable of thinking objectively and pragmatically.

They are completely out of touch with reality, totally unreasonable, and just about anyone can see through their ludicrous propaganda.

This. This hit's the nail on the head.

 

[pemma]

That would be fine if Northern had ticket acceptance in place for that route, which they don't.
Sam

It's particularly annoying that they have blanket ticket acceptance on Arriva buses but don't have any arrangements with Metrolink or any other operator. There must be some routes where Arriva operate a daytime service and another operator operates the evening service or vice versa. As of Monday the 82 Chester to Northwich bus transfers from Arriva to D&G Bus so rail tickets should have been accepted this Saturday but they won't next Saturday, also the 130 Macclesfield-Wilmslow-Manchester Arriva service will be terminated at East Didsbury from tomorrow so there won't be any Arriva bus services operating from East Didsbury to Manchester.

 

[XDM]

I'd rather the second person was on the train than on the station. I wouldn't mind seeing the additional staffed stations dropped as a quid pro quo.

As for guards/conductors not turning up, we've lived with this risk for 180 years, I don't see why its critical to change it now.

Do you really want to freeze industry to the productivity levels of 180 years ago?

Where would the increase in living standards that we have enjoyed since 1838 come from if people worked as they did 180 years ago!

Live in the real world.
Modern technology has allowed railways all over the world to say goodbye to the guard operated train.
All the countries around us, including The Irish republic which is 100 % DOO, have had extensive DOO for years. There is no problem.

Irish railways are in fact safer than they were with conventional guards.

The specific & immediate benefit on Northern is that trains can run if a guard takes ill. That means the vulnerable, the hard working & tired do not have to wait on a freezing rain swept platform for the next train, which may be an hour away.

 

[js1000]

Do you think the rail staff are prepared for 'strikes continuing over the next few years' ?

They just do what the unions say. I can understand they feel their job is on the line even if Arriva are assuring them they'll find alternative work elsewhere in the franchise.

Also, the RMT calling temporary guards "PUGs" and a "scab army" is utterly daft. Perfectly sums up the attitude of permanently angry, chip on the shoulder, "wanna fight?" mentality of unions.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“It is appalling that rather than settling their disputes these train companies are prepared to throw huge sums of money at a scab-army of volunteer managers who are a clear danger to passengers. It’s about time the safety regulator, who is funded by the private train companies, stopped letting the piper call the tune and took action to stop this dangerous nonsense.

“The continuing action by RMT members on both SWR and ARN is about putting public safety before private profit while the train companies, with the connivance of the government and the safety bodies, are prepared to rip up the rule book to bulldoze through their plans for driver only operation.

“Instead of tolerating the clear and present danger on our railways the train operators should be round the table with the union negotiating agreements that reflect the best practice in the industry and put safety first.”

Would help if they spelt convenience correctly and didn't sound like some angry, braindead member of the EDL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather the second person was on the train than on the station. I wouldn't mind seeing the additional staffed stations dropped as a quid pro quo.

It rather looks like Merseyrail will go that way. I would be surprised to see Aughton Park and Town Green still staffed in 10 years' time.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Also, the RMT calling temporary guards "PUGs" and a "scab army" is utterly daft.

The salt is strong with the rmt & mick cash.

 

[Robertj21a]

They just do what the unions say. I can understand they feel their job is on the line even if Arriva are assuring them they'll find alternative work elsewhere in the franchise.

Also, the RMT calling temporary guards "PUGs" and a "scab army" is utterly daft. Perfectly sums up the attitude of permanently angry, chip on the shoulder, "wanna fight?" mentality of unions.



Would help if they spelt convenience correctly and didn't sound like some angry, braindead member of the EDL.

But they shouldn't need to 'just do what the unions say' - the union is only the sum total of its members. Having said that, I'm sure that many RMT members just pay their subs and let Mick Cash rant - too few members seem prepared to stand up and do anything else.

 

[Carlisle]

But they shouldn't need to 'just do what the unions say' - the union is only the sum total of its members. Having said that, I'm sure that many RMT members just pay their subs and let Mick Cash rant - too few members seem prepared to stand up and do anything else.

If labour don’t get elected shortly and agree to almost all the RMTs DOO related demands, Id not be too surprised if a less militant alternative grows considerably in the next decade or so

 

[Gooner18]

This always confuses me , in north London they have had DOO for years , must be at least 30+ years , so how is it OK for some TOC do run this but others not ?

 

[PomWombat]

It strikes me (pun unnecessary) that this dispute is not one that's really ripe for strike action. 33 days of strikes, where the parties haven't even begun talking.

It feels like the London marathon, where everyone is already running but hasn't passed the start line yet.

 

[pemma]

If labour don’t get elected shortly and agree to almost all the RMTs DOO related demands, Id not be too surprised if a less militant alternative grows considerably in the next decade or so

Andy McDonald has not promised to undo DOO, not even Northern, only that no further DOO will be introduced under a Labour government. Even Burnham and Rotheram aren't against DOO on Northern they are only against DOO on non-suburban services on Northern.

 

[pemma]

It strikes me (pun unnecessary) that this dispute is not one that's really ripe for strike action. 33 days of strikes, where the parties haven't even begun talking.

It feels like the London marathon, where everyone is already running but hasn't passed the start line yet.

They have talked but both sides are blaming each other for a lack of progress. RMT saying Northern aren't committed as they have red lines and turned up late, Northern saying the RMT are unwilling to accept modernisation.

 

[Robertj21a]

They have talked but both sides are blaming each other for a lack of progress. RMT saying Northern aren't committed as they have red lines and turned up late, Northern saying the RMT are unwilling to accept modernisation.

They're both at a point where there's really little point in meeting. Neither ever budge, so why bother talking.

 

[PomWombat]

I don't call that talking. That's flinging mud pies and calling each other names. Nah nah na-nah nah.

 

[PomWombat]

Neither ever budge

I understand what RMT's un-budged position is (though in the context of other parts of the country, not budging might not be tenable), but I don't know what Northern are failing to budge from. We know what the franchise agreement says about the target, but I haven't seen anything at all about what position Northern currently have.

 

[Kite159]

Andy McDonald has not promised to undo DOO, not even Northern, only that no further DOO will be introduced under a Labour government. Even Burnham and Rotheram aren't against DOO on Northern they are only against DOO on non-suburban services on Northern.

And how many times have politicians of all coloured parties have promised something to try and win votes, only for said promise to be forgotten about/broken once they win power?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're both at a point where there's really little point in meeting. Neither ever budge, so why bother talking.

So what now? I guess just carry on and implement DOO across all of Northern, then "docker style" sack all the guards in one go, as due to the length of dispute would now be allowable?

If not (and I don't think this is likely) - one side is going to need to give, at least...

 

[Overspeed110]

So what now? I guess just carry on and implement DOO across all of Northern, then "docker style" sack all the guards in one go, as due to the length of dispute would now be allowable?

If not (and I don't think this is likely) - one side is going to need to give, at least...

I find it very amusing that you think that the company can just "implement" DOO across the company.

You seem to be of the opinion that ASLEF will just allow this to happen?

ASLEF have not said or done anything in this dispute yet because they have not been formally approached about DOO by Northern.

 

[Andyh82]

RMT are again trying to stop all TOCs (including Northern) using managers as guards during strikes by pointing to issues with the SWR contingency guards. Also aren't some contingency guards non-managerial office based staff?



https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-raises-new-safety-warning-over-use-of-phoney-guards/

Two points for “huge bounty payments” and “scab managers” although knock one point off for them not mentioning Germans.

The media aren’t going to make much of a fuss of the errors they’ve highlighted. The mainstream media and general public will not see anything wrong with giving a right away against a red signal unless the train actually set off. To the public it may seem like petty nitpicking.

They do have a very outdated ‘us and them’ view of workers and management.

If you are a conductor then that should be your career for life. If you want to climb the ladder and become a manager suddenly you are scum of the earth.