Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

Going back to DOO/DCO I think the RMT might have shared a redacted part of the franchise agreement. However, I think they forgot the last line states no requirement to reduce on board staffing, so while they can go on about second persons not being 'safety critical', they can't go on about axing staff without knowing they are lying through their teeth: https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1060519784742379520

 

[LOL The Irony]

Going back to DOO/DCO I think the RMT might have shared a redacted part of the franchise agreement. However, I think they forgot the last line states no requirement to reduce on board staffing, so while they can go on about second persons not being 'safety critical', they can't go on about axing staff without knowing they are lying through their teeth: https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1060519784742379520

Doing that would mean using sense, reason, logic and the truth. So far they've not used sense and logic and they've lied through omission up til now. They've used reason, but only reason that suits their agenda.

 

[HH]

Yet Merseyrail isn't a typical franchise, it's a similar arrangement to what TfGM have with KeliosAmey for Metrolink where the franchise holder doesn't choose what rolling stock they use. As far as I can see neither DOO or DCO is written in to the agreement.

OK, we can remove Merseyrail from the equation completely, as atypical. Does that change anything? Abellio have still been a keen implementer of DCO.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Has it been confirmed how many more Saturdays these strikes are going to continue for? I read that strikes have been planned up to Christmas, if so, this is going to stop me seeing family before Christmas, working Mon-Fri, weekends are the only time I can make the journey.

It's about time the RMT gave up on this unwinnable war they've got themselves into.

I'm awaiting Christmas Eve to see what the RMT can pull out of its strike stocking and whether the ongoing Saturday striking will continue through well into 2019. I only hope that the 29th December will be the last one.

 

[Confused52]

Going back to DOO/DCO I think the RMT might have shared a redacted part of the franchise agreement. However, I think they forgot the last line states no requirement to reduce on board staffing, so while they can go on about second persons not being 'safety critical', they can't go on about axing staff without knowing they are lying through their teeth: https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1060519784742379520

That was the ITT, it may or may not bear a relation to the Franchise Agreement, it doesn't for TPE which was in the very same ITT. I regard it has being interesting but not evidence in any way.

 

[northwichcat]

That was the ITT, it may or may not bear a relation to the Franchise Agreement, it doesn't for TPE which was in the very same ITT. I regard it has being interesting but not evidence in any way.

I knew it was something that wasn't in the franchise agreement but didn't realise the RMT are back to quoting pre-franchise award documents again when post-franchise award documents are available and more accurate.

 

[td97]

I only hope that the 29th December will be the last one.

Christmas bills to pay in the new year, maybe no new strikes will be announced for a while because it would suit the RMT and its members.

 

[yorksrob]

We do know from the Northern consultation DfT looked at proper DOO on Northern i.e. London Underground style but it proved costly and impractical to implement by the time ticket barriers at every Northern station isn't a realistic proposal and neither is station staff. It was also pointed out to them (by both passengers and bidders) that there's a lot of ticket-less travel. Therefore, instead they looked at how staff could have more revenue and customer service focused roles to eliminate the need to employ lots of extra staff for revenue or assisting disabled passengers.

Indeed, which leads us to a second person on each train performing revenue and passenger focused duties.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite. And what amazes me is that, despite the very strong evidence that this government and the DfT are happy to provide the poorest rail service they can get away with in the north, a surprising number of northerners on here seem to think that these bodies can do no wrong in this dispute, and couldn't possiblt have any ulterior motives

There certainly seems to be no sense of urgency from central government about resolving these disputes.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. I wish we had some of the redacted information about exactly what they agreed on the subsidy profile in terms of what money goes where, and exactly how they were going to get to that position vis a vis on-board and station staff (many of whom are still employed by Carlisle Security with minimal training and apparently no railway specific knowledge).

Indeed. That would make things a lot clearer.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes. I wish we had some of the redacted information about exactly what they agreed on the subsidy profile in terms of what money goes where, and exactly how they were going to get to that position vis a vis on-board and station staff (many of whom are still employed by Carlisle Security with minimal training and apparently no railway specific knowledge).

Have you a quotable source that confirms the actual Carlisle Security type and time period of training that you state as "minimal".

 

[B&I]

Pretty much every finance operational level job, including the lower ends of accountancy, is being or will be outsourced or automated.
That includes me - I was TUPE’d and am waiting for a hugely overdue project to finish before redundancy (rail isn’t the only industry that can monstrously balls up projects......).
You don’t see us all going on strike to keep future generations doing unnecessary roles, we just shrug and move on.

This is exactly why nothing works any more in this country. This bizarre, hubristic notion that a society without humans actually doing jobs is automatically better, despite the fact that a large amount of the technology we have become increasingly reliant on doesn't actually work well, if at all. It's all very well shrugging your shoulders, but what happens when 'technology' has destroyed all the jobs left for you to move onto ?

 

[PR1Berske]

This is exactly why nothing works any more in this country. This bizarre, hubristic notion that a society without humans actually doing jobs is automatically better, despite the fact that a large amount of the technology we have become increasingly reliant on doesn't actually work well, if at all. It's all very well shrugging your shoulders, but what happens when 'technology' has destroyed all the jobs left for you to move onto ?

As I said about my job in the NHS, yes, computers have rendered physical medical notes almost redundant, but those who used to work in the library finding those notes have been reassigned jobs or moved elsewhere. No strikes, no Unison meetings, no disruption to patient care or operations. Changes were made, staff got retraining.

Why is the railway so different?!

 

[Robertj21a]

This is exactly why nothing works any more in this country. This bizarre, hubristic notion that a society without humans actually doing jobs is automatically better, despite the fact that a large amount of the technology we have become increasingly reliant on doesn't actually work well, if at all. It's all very well shrugging your shoulders, but what happens when 'technology' has destroyed all the jobs left for you to move onto ?

Technology won't destroy all the jobs. It will change the need for some jobs to be done in the same way, and some jobs will no longer be needed at all. However, new technologies come along all the time and large businesses, or small entrepreneurs, latch on to a new need from the consumer - and offer fresh services to meet that need. Staff who are flexible in their outlook can thrive in the new environment.
Unfortunately, hardly any of this 'real world' is ever visible in the rail industry, hence we have numerous staff who rebel at every possible change to their status quo. In all probability, they're just scared of what may happen to them personally (a totally understandable concern) - and it suits the RMT to fan the flames of concern even more, rather than acting like the caring, professional, organisation that their members probably want.

 

[142Pilot]

As I said about my job in the NHS, yes, computers have rendered physical medical notes almost redundant, but those who used to work in the library finding those notes have been reassigned jobs or moved elsewhere. No strikes, no Unison meetings, no disruption to patient care or operations. Changes were made, staff got retraining.

Why is the railway so different?!

I don't think any senior NHS staff member has come out and declared war on its staff.

Or written proposals on how to reduce staff numbers.

You are not making a reasonable comparison.

 

[HH]

I don't think any senior NHS staff member has come out and declared war on its staff.

Or written proposals on how to reduce staff numbers.

You are not making a reasonable comparison.

What Senior ARN staff member has done this?

 

[HH]

Yes. I wish we had some of the redacted information about exactly what they agreed on the subsidy profile in terms of what money goes where, and exactly how they were going to get to that position vis a vis on-board and station staff (many of whom are still employed by Carlisle Security with minimal training and apparently no railway specific knowledge).

You, and others, appear to have a misconception about what is included in a Franchise Agreement.

What money goes where is not included, just the payments they are going to make to DfT. Nor are there any details about staff - at best there will be commitments on some aspects that the DfT (and TfN in this case) thought were worth contractualising.

 

[pt_mad]

Absolutely. It's been said time and time again. The RMT could have said, "let's accept change is coming and make sure we secure the best deal for our workers."

Instead they went for "Boo the Germans and don't budge an inch!"

When modern trains are introduced, when ASLEF drivers are in those trains, the RMT will look like complete fools.

Makes you wonder though, if the RMT didn't put up such resistance, would they have achieved the second member of staff guarantee in the franchises they already have? Could not fighting potentially have shrugged off the status of a guard and left the role open to reductions in staffing levels across the whole country?

It's a real double edged sword.

Every time I travel on the new Blackpool Tram system, I am really impressed with how they do it. Essntially it's light rail DCO. Two members of customer facing revenue staff on every tram I've been on. And the system seems to work great. Not sure whether two ticket staff are guaranteed though? Or whether there's a rule of no lone working within the saloons? Hard to argue with how well it works though. Although it should be noted that their model is based on more than half of customers paying onboard the tram.

 

[B&I]

Technology won't destroy all the jobs. It will change the need for some jobs to be done in the same way, and some jobs will no longer be needed at all. However, new technologies come along all the time and large businesses, or small entrepreneurs, latch on to a new need from the consumer - and offer fresh services to meet that need. Staff who are flexible in their outlook can thrive in the new environment.
Unfortunately, hardly any of this 'real world' is ever visible in the rail industry, hence we have numerous staff who rebel at every possible change to their status quo. In all probability, they're just scared of what may happen to them personally (a totally understandable concern) - and it suits the RMT to fan the flames of concern even more, rather than acting like the caring, professional, organisation that their members probably want.

We have gone beyond automating routine tasks which can be just as easily done by computers, to this whacky notion that everything can be better done by cimputers, no.matyer how.much the job currently depends on human thought, reasoning, creativity, imagination or any of the other qualities that AI cannot replicate. The 'efficiency gains' made as a result (ie the lower employment costs after sacking lots of people,) are not passed on to consumers, but instead used to make a small number of people wealthy. Meanwhile, the number of people underemployed, or in jobs providing no economic benefits to themselves or others but whoch conveniently keep them off the unemployment statistics, grow steadily, we end up with the worst productivity statistics in the developed world, and society disintegrates as fewer and fewer people have even the most basic economic stake in it. Something is going rather badly wrong, and a blind faith in the wonderfulness of technology cannot disguise this.

 

[142Pilot]

What Senior ARN staff member has done this?

Are we comparing ARN to the NHS or the rail industry as a whole?

It's a bit like saying a hospital trust is the NHS, where as I clearly remember Peter Wilkinson of the DfT saying he will break staff.

 

[northwichcat]

We have gone beyond automating routine tasks which can be just as easily done by computers, to this whacky notion that everything can be better done by cimputers, no.matyer how.much the job currently depends on human thought, reasoning, creativity, imagination or any of the other qualities that AI cannot replicate. The 'efficiency gains' made as a result (ie the lower employment costs after sacking lots of people,) are not passed on to consumers, but instead used to make a small number of people wealthy. Meanwhile, the number of people underemployed, or in jobs providing no economic benefits to themselves or others but whoch conveniently keep them off the unemployment statistics, grow steadily, we end up with the worst productivity statistics in the developed world, and society disintegrates as fewer and fewer people have even the most basic economic stake in it. Something is going rather badly wrong, and a blind faith in the wonderfulness of technology cannot disguise this.

It's not all doom and gloom with automation. A lot of the things people are currently being paid to look at automating won't end up being automated for various reasons, just like new tech products come on to the market all the time, with many being unpopular and quickly being dropped. Many expect VR to never really take off with AR taking it's place instead - AR being where you see the real world but with something artificial imposed on top of it.

 

[yorksrob]

You, and others, appear to have a misconception about what is included in a Franchise Agreement.

What money goes where is not included, just the payments they are going to make to DfT. Nor are there any details about staff - at best there will be commitments on some aspects that the DfT (and TfN in this case) thought were worth contractualising.

Perhaps those are exactly the "contractualised commitments" that are driving this dispute.

 

[LowLevel]

Makes you wonder though, if the RMT didn't put up such resistance, would they have achieved the second member of staff guarantee in the franchises they already have? Could not fighting potentially have shrugged off the status of a guard and left the role open to reductions in staffing levels across the whole country?

It's a real double edged sword.

Every time I travel on the new Blackpool Tram system, I am really impressed with how they do it. Essntially it's light rail DCO. Two members of customer facing revenue staff on every tram I've been on. And the system seems to work great. Not sure whether two ticket staff are guaranteed though? Or whether there's a rule of no lone working within the saloons? Hard to argue with how well it works though. Although it should be noted that their model is based on more than half of customers paying onboard the tram.

For every one story there's another though - Nottingham used to have a conductor on every tram. Then someone came up with the clever cost saving idea of only having revenue squads and ticket machines and they were removed.

 

[northwichcat]

Are we comparing ARN to the NHS or the rail industry as a whole?

It's a bit like saying a hospital trust is the NHS, where as I clearly remember Peter Wilkinson of the DfT saying he will break staff.

Peter Wilkinson is like most politicians (even though he's not a politician) he says something that pleases the people listening to him at the time of saying it and then backtracks on it afterwards. It was only a couple of years ago the unions were praising him for saying he sees ticket barriers as dumb machines and that they can't replace staff checking tickets. He said his 'break the unions' speech at an event organised by a Conservative MP, which was attended by mainly Conservative supporters.

 

[Carlisle]

Are we comparing ARN to the NHS or the rail industry as a whole?

It's a bit like saying a hospital trust is the NHS, where as I clearly remember Peter Wilkinson of the DfT saying he will break staff.

For the billionth time, the Speach occurred after the anti DOO strike campaign begun, yes extremely daft but meaningless

 

[northwichcat]

For every one story there's another though - Nottingham used to have a conductor on every tram. Then someone came up with the clever cost saving idea of only having revenue squads and ticket machines and they were removed.

Blackpool is an old tram system which has always operated on the basis that tickets are purchased from the conductor on board, not from machines or ticket offices at stops.

Sheffield started as a tram system with machines at stops and roaming ticket checks but the machines were scrapped and replaced by a person with a portable machine on board.

 

[pt_mad]

For every one story there's another though - Nottingham used to have a conductor on every tram. Then someone came up with the clever cost saving idea of only having revenue squads and ticket machines and they were removed.

I am very often gobsmacked at just how switched on the ticket checkers are on the Blackpool Trams. If it's only average busy, as soon as you're on they're over to you. Everyone seems to pay up too and I've never seen any resistance to pay on my journeys, which is surprising considering how much anti fare paying there is on Network Rail. Maybe they get a good comission? I've yet to see a day they don't come round and take fares and surely they must have off days? They seem really interested in checking and charging absolutely everyone without exception, maybe there are targets or incentives?

The huge downside is that they have no safe place to refuge if there's trouble onboard, as they appear to be stuck in the saloons? It may be they have a key to the rear cab i don't know.

 

[pt_mad]

Blackpool is an old tram system which has always operated on the basis that tickets are purchased from the conductor on board, not from machines or ticket offices at stops.

Sheffield started as a tram system with machines at stops and roaming ticket checks but the machines were scrapped and replaced by a person with a portable machine on board.

The trams have been renewed now though to 2012 models. As has the whole track and OLE.

All card payments must be done via the app. And customers can pay for journeys at Paypoint. So the whole model isn't based on pay on board. At the moment the majority do seem to pay on board, however this may well change in the future as app usage increases and card payments over cash increase.

 

[northwichcat]

I am very often gobsmacked at just how switched on the ticket checkers are on the Blackpool Trams. If it's only average busy, as soon as you're on they're over to you. Everyone seems to pay up too and I've never seen any resistance to pay on my journeys, which is surprising considering how much anti fare paying there is on Network Rail. Maybe they get a good comission? I've yet to see a day they don't come round and take fares and surely they must have off days? They seem really interested in checking and charging absolutely everyone without exception, maybe there are targets or incentives?

The huge downside is that they have no safe place to refuge if there's trouble onboard, as they appear to be stuck in the saloons? It may be they have a key to the rear cab i don't know.

It's similar on Sheffield Supertram. The conductors remaining in the saloon all the time and not having door/dispatch duties means they get a clear view of those getting on and off at each stop.

 

[northwichcat]

The trams have been renewed now though to 2012 models. As has the whole track and OLE.

All card payments must be done via the app. And customers can pay for journeys at Paypoint. So the whole model isn't based on pay on board. At the moment the majority do seem to pay on board, however this may well change in the future as app usage increases and card payments over cash increase.

When Blackpool trams first started there would have been no option of paying by card and I'm not sure they would have ever accepted cheques guaranteed by bank cards.