Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[142Pilot]

Would that be a 3-letter issue starting with D in another thread? I'm sure I'd read that initial training will be for guarded operation?

If not, what other issue is there with them?

Nothing to do with do.

It's an agreement that in typical fashion has been interpreted in unsuitable ways.

Could cause issues.

 

[superkev]

The Britain's New Trains book, first mentioned over in the Class 701 thread, actually quotes some figures for full trains (rather than specific cars). I'm not sure how reliable or realistic the numbers are, but you'd expect a certain degree of accuracy from a printed publication.
195/0: 87t
195/1: 123t
331/0: 125.5t
331/1: 157.4t

Now the units are running around have these weight been confirmed.
Although at 43.5t a car there similar to a 170 and with 520hp rather than the 170s 422hp and a more efficient transmission they should certainly go.
And heres dreaming but how a re-engined lightest dmu at 38t the 158 would fly.
K

 

[Agent_Squash]

Testing on the Furness line earlier than I thought they would be. Is it planned to introduce on the MIA-BIF services relatively soon to return the 185s back to TPE?

 

[Chester1]

Now the units are running around have these weight been confirmed.
Although at 43.5t a car there similar to a 170 and with 520hp rather than the 170s 422hp and a more efficient transmission they should certainly go.
And heres dreaming but how a re-engined lightest dmu at 38t the 158 would fly.
K

I am surprised by the HP considering the difficultly of building an emissions compliant engine. Porterbrook are working on a hybrid engine offer to bidders to lease the 170s but I doubt anyone will invest in re-engining the 158s. I hope they have another 15 years use though, they are a good choice for rural routes like the Cumbrian Coast or Far North Line where 195/196s etc would be over kill.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Testing on the Furness line earlier than I thought they would be. Is it planned to introduce on the MIA-BIF services relatively soon to return the 185s back to TPE?

Are they testing on the Furness line or just using the Furness line for testing because it has available paths, if you know what I mean?

 

[50032]

Testing on the Furness line earlier than I thought they would be. Is it planned to introduce on the MIA-BIF services relatively soon to return the 185s back to TPE?

I believe giving the 185s back to TPE is a priority yes.

 

[Class37.4]

I believe giving the 185s back to TPE is a priority yes.

Indeed plus of course that line is supposed to have good quality air con stock to replace 185 but of course many services on that route have distinctly sub standard stock by that measure since the franchise change.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Indeed plus of course that line is supposed to have good quality air con stock to replace 185 but of course many services on that route have distinctly sub standard stock by that measure since the franchise change.

Oh the joys of being a line that happens to be marginal seats that the Tories want...

 

[Class37.4]

Oh the joys of being a line that happens to be marginal seats that the Tories want...

Maybe but it seems reasonable to me specify that you shouldn’t get some clapped out inferior Northern stock to replace 185’s because of the franchise remap, even that been the reality for Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere for the last few years thanks initially of course to the TPE 170 shambles.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Maybe but it seems reasonable to me specify that you shouldn’t get some clapped out inferior Northern stock to replace 185’s because of the franchise remap, even that been the reality for Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere for the last few years thanks initially of course to the TPE 170 shambles.

As someone who uses the Furness line regularly (and with friends and family who have to suffer commuting on it), I'm well aware of the circumstances that led to the current situation, including the 170 shambles. It is no secret however that the Connect specification was originally for the TPE services coming to Northern, and it's no secret the expansion in services was partially politically motivated as it is in nearly all cases.

 

[Class37.4]

As someone who uses the Furness line regularly (and with friends and family who have to suffer commuting on it), I'm well aware of the circumstances that led to the current situation, including the 170 shambles. It is no secret however that the Connect specification was originally for the TPE services coming to Northern, and it's no secret the expansion in services was partially politically motivated as it is in nearly all cases.

Was it? Yes the former Tpe routes are in the franchise spec, but the other routes are not, and would appear to be something that Arriva decided to offer as part of their bid.

In that respect I’m pleased they did as a better quality product was long overdue on all those major connect routes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I remember the TPE routes got improved stock (185s) under Labour, so none of the pollical stuff washes at all.
The Arriva franchise commitment was to not to downgrade the stock on the Barrow/Windermere/Blackpool routes when they took them over from TPE.
That's been diluted somewhat with recent troubles, but looks set to get back on track with the new deliveries.

 

[Defiance149]

Can anyone ID last week's deliveries to Edge Hill please? Six cars in by road - unknown if 195 or 331.

 

[mikemcniven]

Do we have any news when the first sets maybe delivered to Newton Heath TMD

 

[Nymanic]

There's an interesting development over on the Railway Gazette site, although I can't currently verify this story anywhere else.

Arriva and Eversholt Rail have ordered a further three Class 195 DMUs from CAF to increase capacity on the network; this takes the total order to 58 DMUs and 43 Class 331 EMUs.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yet to bee seen whether they are 2 or 3 car I see.

 

[Mordac]

By all rights Angel trains should be paying for that, as they commited to leasing units they could not deliver on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess those are needed to allow a DMU to run to Windermere instead of the originally planned EMU. I did wonder if we'd see a change of that kind, though I'm surprised it's extras rather than just a couple of 3-car EMUs being ordered as DMUs instead.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I said they hadn't ordered enough. Rather disappointed it's only three extra. Might this mean we see 195s on non-Connect services?

 

[Class37.4]

I said they hadn't ordered enough. Rather disappointed it's only three extra. Might this mean we see 195s on non-Connect services?

What with 3 extra I doubt it? as suggested probably to cover Windermere until if/when the alternative tech train arrives, then maybe a few less 158's on connect services.

 

[507021]

Good news, hopefully they're three car units.

 

[6Gman]

I said they hadn't ordered enough. Rather disappointed it's only three extra. Might this mean we see 195s on non-Connect services?

When did they last order enough for any franchise?

 

[notlob.divad]

I guess those are needed to allow a DMU to run to Windermere instead of the originally planned EMU. I did wonder if we'd see a change of that kind, though I'm surprised it's extras rather than just a couple of 3-car EMUs being ordered as DMUs instead.

I suspect you are correct. Does that mean there will be a couple of extra 331s to go around? Add in the rumours about the 323s maybe staying...

 

[js1000]

I said they hadn't ordered enough. Rather disappointed it's only three extra. Might this mean we see 195s on non-Connect services?

I can see 195s on non-Connect routes.

Based off the performance on both Northern and TPE since the May 2018 timetable change I would be amazed if all the Northern Connect routes were actually introduced without infrastructure upgrades, namely the Oxford Road and Piccadilly Capacity Scheme.

It's proven to be over-ambitious. The combination of two separate commuter stopping services into a Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport service has been pretty disastrous. If the train is stuck whether it be through signal/points failure or displaced crew in Liverpool or Manchester then the entire route has had it. Apply that logic to Chester to Leeds, Liverpool to Leeds and Bradford to Manchester Airport and you have a recipe for something deeply unsavoury.

Don't get me started on the Bradford to Manchester Airport service. I'd love to know where the new path is magically found for that one once it gets to the Styal Line. Maybe they'll end up drawing lots or whoever gets to Piccadilly first gets to go to the Airport while the late running train behind has to terminate at Oxford Road!

Some of the Northern Connect routes will have to be re-evaluated based upon what they've learnt from combining multiple services into a long distance stopping service and the limitations faced at the Ordsall Chord.

 

[deltic08]

Oh the joys of being a line that happens to be marginal seats that the Tories want...

Well they should have electrified it then instead of running diesels all the way to Manchester under the wires.

 

[scrapy]

I can see 195s on non-Connect routes.

Based off the performance on both Northern and TPE since the May 2018 timetable change I would be amazed if all the Northern Connect routes were actually introduced without infrastructure upgrades, namely the Oxford Road and Piccadilly Capacity Scheme.

It's proven to be over-ambitious. The combination of two separate commuter stopping services into a Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport service has been pretty disastrous. If the train is stuck whether it be through signal/points failure or displaced crew in Liverpool or Manchester then the entire route has had it. Apply that logic to Chester to Leeds, Liverpool to Leeds and Bradford to Manchester Airport and you have a recipe for something deeply unsavoury.

Don't get me started on the Bradford to Manchester Airport service. I'd love to know where the new path is magically found for that one once it gets to the Styal Line. Maybe they'll end up drawing lots or whoever gets to Piccadilly first gets to go to the Airport while the late running train behind has to terminate at Oxford Road!

Some of the Northern Connect routes will have to be re-evaluated based upon what they've learnt from combining multiple services into a long distance stopping service and the limitations faced at the Ordsall Chord.

You only have to look at the Leeds to.Southport performance to tell you these Northern Connect routes won't work.

 

[Class37.4]

I can see 195s on non-Connect routes.

Based off the performance on both Northern and TPE since the May 2018 timetable change I would be amazed if all the Northern Connect routes were actually introduced without infrastructure upgrades, namely the Oxford Road and Piccadilly Capacity Scheme.

It's proven to be over-ambitious. The combination of two separate commuter stopping services into a Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport service has been pretty disastrous. If the train is stuck whether it be through signal/points failure or displaced crew in Liverpool or Manchester then the entire route has had it. Apply that logic to Chester to Leeds, Liverpool to Leeds and Bradford to Manchester Airport and you have a recipe for something deeply unsavoury.

Don't get me started on the Bradford to Manchester Airport service. I'd love to know where the new path is magically found for that one once it gets to the Styal Line. Maybe they'll end up drawing lots or whoever gets to Piccadilly first gets to go to the Airport while the late running train behind has to terminate at Oxford Road!

Some of the Northern Connect routes will have to be re-evaluated based upon what they've learnt from combining multiple services into a long distance stopping service and the limitations faced at the Ordsall Chord.

Well I'm sure that 195's might work some non connect services, but then they don't have enough 195's to work all Connect anyway. I doubt there will be a vast change to the Connect network, if some routes are re evaluated well the majority are existing services, possibly some of the ones around Manchester may be spilt or truncated etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The irony is that with their mechanical transmissions and doors at thirds (actually thirds rather than the recent trend for roughly 1/4 and 3/4), the 195s would provide the biggest improvement to local stopping services, not inter-regional services which might be better off with properly tarted-up Class 158s or similar.

Look at how the Class 172 (basically the same thing from another manufacturer) has substantially improved the Snow Hill local services around Brum, providing most of the benefits of the wires without putting them up (except, obviously, the environmental one).

 

[Class37.4]

The irony is that with their mechanical transmissions and doors at thirds (actually thirds rather than the recent trend for roughly 1/4 and 3/4), the 195s would provide the biggest improvement to local stopping services, not inter-regional services which might be better off with properly tarted-up Class 158s or similar.

Look at how the Class 172 (basically the same thing from another manufacturer) has substantially improved the Snow Hill local services around Brum, providing most of the benefits of the wires without putting them up (except, obviously, the environmental one).

Well ideally you would a much bigger fleet to replace 150's, however Northern will have a significant fleet of 150's for Local Services. Northern Connect services are generally only medium distance routes with still a significant number of stops so I don't see the doors as an issue, but yes I see your point with regard the 158's, but I suspect Northern wanted the new trains on Connect services for maximum impact, I'm also guessing that these wont be able to work in multiple with 15x, which means it keeps it simpler with all non Connect trains being able to work in multiple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well ideally you would a much bigger fleet to replace 150's, however Northern will have a significant fleet of 150's for Local Services. Northern Connect services are generally only medium distance routes with still a significant number of stops so I don't see the doors as an issue, but yes I see your point with regard the 158's, but I suspect Northern wanted the new trains on Connect services for maximum impact, I'm also guessing that these wont be able to work in multiple with 15x, which means it keeps it simpler with all non Connect trains being able to work in multiple.

I don't suffer from "door prejudice" and so am quite happy with long distance services having doors at thirds - my point was more that local services don't work with end doors (due to excessive dwell) and so need doors at thirds, and so classes 155, 156 and 158 are not well suited at all to the kind of services they are ending up on.