Birmingham New Street pollution

[Meerkat]

Shrewsbury would be important though as they are diesels on the crowded 2 track from Brum to Wolverhampton

 

[Bald Rick]

And that was a fight because London could not understand why anyone should want to electrify the line from a small city in Staffordshire to a small town in Worcestershire. It had to be explained to them that there was a rather large city half way between Lichfield and Redditch.

This really is nonsense.

 

[Aictos]

The short answer to New Street pollution is: bi-modes for Cross Country, and for Virgin to stop the mad use of Voyagers from London to Scotland.

A few reasons why Virgin Trains still uses Voyagers under the wires so to speak:

1. They have a rolling programme of franchise extensions/management contracts so am unlikely to order Voyager replacements.

2. The replacements won't likely be considered until 2026 when the West Coast Partnership starts and bidders can consider Voyager replacements.

3. They're diagrammed with North Wales services which hasn't any electrification.

4. Virgin Trains only has a limited number of Electric sets and they're used on other services such as Liverpool/Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow to London and that's not counting the Scottish services via Birmingham.

5. While I agree that it's not acceptable to operate Diesel sets under the wires, there is only so much you can do with the resources you have at hand.

6. Building new intermediate cars with OHL equipment is too costly.

So 6 reasons why Virgin Trains use Voyagers on Birmingham to Scotland.

 

[Meerkat]

I assume a fairly significant reason is that any new train bought now will need tilt, and that would be very expensive.
Once HS2 is running non-tilt then they will say that the WCML trains don’t need tilt - they will say because long distance will be on HS2, cynics might say because they want to slow down WCML to force revenue onto paying for the white elephant.....

 

[Aictos]

I assume a fairly significant reason is that any new train bought now will need tilt, and that would be very expensive.
Once HS2 is running non-tilt then they will say that the WCML trains don’t need tilt - they will say because long distance will be on HS2, cynics might say because they want to slow down WCML to force revenue onto paying for the white elephant.....

Not true, TPE have the Class 350/4s running between the North West and Scotland I don't see them struggling without tilt not to mention the Class 185s too.

Tilt is optional, it just means that services run at 110mph vs 125mph - not sure how much of the WCML is 125mph north of Crewe.

As to saying that once HS2 is up and running and commenting that they will say that the WCML will not need tilt any more because long distance passengers will use HS2 is silly for a number of reasons:

1. They are not going to slow down the WCML either now or in the future.

2. There will still be non HS2 services using the WCML from Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Scotland etc for which tilt will still be used.

3. They aren't going to force passengers onto HS2 as they have a choice much like if I travel between London and Dover I have a choice of the Classic routes or HS1, nothing is going to change this.

4. More services will be using the WCML with Nuneaton for one be in a better position to gain IC services once more so having tilt will actually mean faster services be able to serve the town.

5. There is as much chance of the WCML having tilt removed and having services slowed down to 110mph as there is of Grayling admitting he was wrong about electrification.

 

[Meerkat]

I think you blew it with your point 3.
There are plenty of posts on here suggesting that the classic lines from Kent are slower now that HS1 is the premium service......

HS2 is going to cost an enormous amount of money so will need huge revenue. The airlines have shown that cheap beats speed and luxury. If they don’t choke competition from WCML services then off peak HS2 is going to really struggle.
And I am sure I read that the next WCML trains are likely to be non-tilt (especially as they will probably be ordered by the franchise trying to make HS2 make money.....)

 

[Hadders]

I think you blew it with your point 3.
There are plenty of posts on here suggesting that the classic lines from Kent are slower now that HS1 is the premium service......

HS2 is going to cost an enormous amount of money so will need huge revenue. The airlines have shown that cheap beats speed and luxury. If they don’t choke competition from WCML services then off peak HS2 is going to really struggle.
And I am sure I read that the next WCML trains are likely to be non-tilt (especially as they will probably be ordered by the franchise trying to make HS2 make money.....)

HS2 is about capacity.

The WCML won't be slowed down as such but, for example, if you move the London - Manchester passengers onto HS2 then the 'classic' services on the WCML can then make more calls at places like Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth etc. This is good for the connectivity and capacity of those intermediate places but the overall effect would be to slow down a London - Manchester service on the WCML.

Once you get your head round this HS2 makes sense.

 

[hwl]

HS2 is about capacity.

The WCML won't be slowed down as such but, for example, if you move the London - Manchester passengers onto HS2 then the 'classic' services on the WCML can then make more calls at places like Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth etc. This is good for the connectivity and capacity of those intermediate places but the overall effect would be to slow down a London - Manchester service on the WCML.

Once you get your head round this HS2 makes sense.

And with lots more stops 110mph + makes far less sense overall...

 

[hwl]

A few reasons why Virgin Trains still uses Voyagers under the wires so to speak:

1. They have a rolling programme of franchise extensions/management contracts so am unlikely to order Voyager replacements.

2. The replacements won't likely be considered until 2026 when the West Coast Partnership starts and bidders can consider Voyager replacements.

3. They're diagrammed with North Wales services which hasn't any electrification.

4. Virgin Trains only has a limited number of Electric sets and they're used on other services such as Liverpool/Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow to London and that's not counting the Scottish services via Birmingham.

5. While I agree that it's not acceptable to operate Diesel sets under the wires, there is only so much you can do with the resources you have at hand.

6. Building new intermediate cars with OHL equipment is too costly.

So 6 reasons why Virgin Trains use Voyagers on Birmingham to Scotland.

Alternatively remove the engine from under one intermediate car and fit a transformer. The steel bombshells are much easier to fit pantograph well to. Should be able to do 125mph on electric and 105mph on diesel afterwards so ideal for VT West Coast use...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively remove the engine from under one intermediate car and fit a transformer. The steel bombshells are much easier to fit pantograph well to. Should be able to do 125mph on electric and 105mph on diesel afterwards so ideal for VT West Coast use...

Just not worth it. Easier and better to build a new bi-mode unit.

 

[hwl]

Just not worth it. Easier and better to build a new bi-mode unit.

Certainly better.
But this would be comparatively cheap and quick though. ROSCOs might be interested in making their 220/221/222 have longer lives especially if cascaded to 100mph routes.

 

[Aictos]

HS2 is about capacity.

The WCML won't be slowed down as such but, for example, if you move the London - Manchester passengers onto HS2 then the 'classic' services on the WCML can then make more calls at places like Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth etc. This is good for the connectivity and capacity of those intermediate places but the overall effect would be to slow down a London - Manchester service on the WCML.

Once you get your head round this HS2 makes sense.

Indeed existing IC passengers will have a choice of HS2 or Classic WCML services, the bonus being places like Watford Junction, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes etc will actually have MORE IC services as they used to have before Virgin's VHF timetable came into play.

As to slowing down a London to Manchester service on the WCML, a extra stop or two won't make any difference for example you have London to Newcastle services which call at all principle stations such as Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle so having a Watford Junction and Nuneaton call on the via Stoke on Trent services and a Rugby and Stafford call on the via Crewe services will bring better connectivity for these stations.

 

[AndrewE]

Certainly better.
But this would be comparatively cheap and quick though. ROSCOs might be interested in making their 220/221/222 have longer lives especially if cascaded to 100mph routes.

er, when was the last time anything on the railway was either quick or cheap - let alone both?

 

[coppercapped]

Certainly better.
But this would be comparatively cheap and quick though. ROSCOs might be interested in making their 220/221/222 have longer lives especially if cascaded to 100mph routes.

The Voyager fleet is very intensively diagrammed and operated.

To modify a coach to carry a transformer and pantograph is not a simple operation. Some years ago I attended an IMechE lecture given by Bombardier on Project Thor - Bombardier had done the detailed engineering design. The quantity of under floor stuff that would need to be changed is significant: cross-feeds from the existing diesel power packs to supply the air conditioning in the transformer coach when off the wires; routing the high voltage feed from the pantograph to the transformer through the passenger space removed a couple of seats; power feeds from the transformer coach to the traction packages in the other coaches and so on. It was reckoned that the rebuild time per set would be several months and to be economic three or four sets would have to be worked on at the same time.

Whether a coach was rebuilt or an additional transformer coach built and added to each set, Project Thor was neither simple nor cheap. This is why it did not go ahead.

In addition, even if the rebuild were affordable, there would be a need to obtain half a dozen or more replacement 125mph trains for three years or so to cover for the Voyager sets which are out of action.

What trains would you suggest would be suitable? Class 180 would not be considered as the Voyager/Meridian trains are among the most reliable 125mph diesel trains in the country.

 

[Aictos]

The Voyager fleet is very intensively diagrammed and operated.

To modify a coach to carry a transformer and pantograph is not a simple operation. Some years ago I attended an IMechE lecture given by Bombardier on Project Thor - Bombardier had done the detailed engineering design. The quantity of under floor stuff that would need to be changed is significant: cross-feeds from the existing diesel power packs to supply the air conditioning in the transformer coach when off the wires; routing the high voltage feed from the pantograph to the transformer through the passenger space removed a couple of seats; power feeds from the transformer coach to the traction packages in the other coaches and so on. It was reckoned that the rebuild time per set would be several months and to be economic three or four sets would have to be worked on at the same time.

Whether a coach was rebuilt or an additional transformer coach built and added to each set, Project Thor was neither simple nor cheap. This is why it did not go ahead.

In addition, even if the rebuild were affordable, there would be a need to obtain half a dozen or more replacement 125mph trains for three years or so to cover for the Voyager sets which are out of action.

What trains would you suggest would be suitable? Class 180 would not be considered as the Voyager/Meridian trains are among the most reliable 125mph diesel trains in the country.

Thank you, I knew it wasn't easy nor cheap to do hence why Project Thor got cancelled but thank you for covering the reasons why it wasn't successful in detail.

As to the diagramming of the fleet itself, as I said above it is very intensively diagrammed and operated(using your words slightly) which is why some Birmingham to Scotland services use them.

It's a pity that Virgin Trains didn't take the opportunity to order more Class 390s both 11 cars and 6 cars to cascade the Class 221s over to Cross Country as well as lengthen more of the original fleet to 11 cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

6 car 390s would have been no practical use for anything. VTWC have done well to grow patronage on the services to Scotland via Brum such that a full length train is pretty much always needed. A few additional 9, 10 or 11-car 390s wouldn't go amiss, though.

 

[Aictos]

6 car 390s would have been no practical use for anything. VTWC have done well to grow patronage on the services to Scotland via Brum such that a full length train is pretty much always needed. A few additional 9, 10 or 11-car 390s wouldn't go amiss, though.

You miss the point that the baby Pendos would have replaced Voyagers as First actually bidded to do.

Although more 11 car sets would be nice to have.

 

[Ken H]

6 car 390s would have been no practical use for anything. VTWC have done well to grow patronage on the services to Scotland via Brum such that a full length train is pretty much always needed. A few additional 9, 10 or 11-car 390s wouldn't go amiss, though.

maybe VTWC should snap up a few cl91/Mk 4 sets. use em on birmingham london trains to release pendos for replacing voyagers.

 

[AndrewE]

maybe VTWC should snap up a few cl91/Mk 4 sets. use em on birmingham london trains to release pendos for replacing voyagers.

That sounds good, how many are going to be available?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You miss the point that the baby Pendos would have replaced Voyagers as First actually bidded to do.

I know, and it was an utterly awful idea which would never have resolved the chronic overcrowding issues these services used to have.

VTWC in my view pulled an absolute masterstroke with what they did with these services - I struggle to see any kind of downside[1] other than Voyagers under the wires, which was happening anyway. The next step might be to replace the Voyagers with some EMUs of some kind, but that's relatively minor in terms of the huge improvement in service that was achieved.

[1] OK, one fewer fast service from Wolves to New St, but that really isn't VTWC's business and nor is it something they should in any way consider when deciding how to plan their long-distance services any more than Euston to MKC should be despite what a few whining commuters seem to think as they queue up to cram onto the peak-time Pendolinos while us sensible people enjoy our seat on a 350.

 

[DarloRich]

A public service annoucement: It is not intended for passengers to spend long periods of time on the platforms at New Street. They are supposed to stay in the lounges.

Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A public service annoucement: It is not intended for passengers to spend long periods of time on the platforms at New Street. They are supposed to stay in the lounges.

Thank you.

True, but I shouldn't be breathing filthy Voyager fumes for even 2-3 minutes. The things should be shut down in a station, and have adequate batteries to allow this, as should all other DMUs and diesel locomotives. DB have shut down engines on arrival at termini and on stopping at major stations when not moving on very quickly since the 1990s. We are so backward on such things in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

maybe VTWC should snap up a few cl91/Mk 4 sets. use em on birmingham london trains to release pendos for replacing voyagers.

That may not be a terrible idea, but it'll be a while until they are available.

 

[DarloRich]

True, but I shouldn't be breathing filthy Voyager fumes for even 2-3 minutes. The things should be shut down in a station, and have adequate batteries to allow this, as should all other DMUs and diesel locomotives. DB have shut down engines on arrival at termini and on stopping at major stations when not moving on very quickly since the 1990s. We are so backward on such things in the UK.

I don't disagree! it should be possible to have stop start technology on a train just like a bus

 

[The Planner]

Would bet serious amounts of cash on all the WCP bidders going for bi-modes, they wont touch 91s and Mk4s.

 

[6Gman]

Problem is, who pays?
We don't seem to have a government that is interested.

Ultimately, we pay - either through fares (hardly a popular idea) or through taxation (also unpopular).

 

[Aictos]

Would bet serious amounts of cash on all the WCP bidders going for bi-modes, they wont touch 91s and Mk4s.

Indeed, they can get better leasing deals with newer stock too as that seems to be the way forward these days...

The benefit of Bi-Modes too is the ability to use the wires where possible and it's easier to remove the diesels to become all Electric sets in the future if more of the UK is electrified, case in point see the GWR Class 800s which all have the ability to have the diesels removed and become AC only units.

 

[Mikey C]

With the East Midlands trains going over to Bimodes in the next franchise, and (as well as the Hitachi option) Bombardier proposing a 125mph Bimode, the main question is whether the WCML HAS to have tilt as well.

 

[The Planner]

Depends on how rapid they are off the blocks, if they accelerate at a rate of knots then it will mitigate against the lower top speed. Remember that 110 vs 125 is only 4 seconds a mile.

 

[AndrewE]

Ultimately, we pay - either through fares (hardly a popular idea) or through taxation (also unpopular).

You don't think that health detriment is a cost then?