EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[bramling]

You say the EU cant control immigration Your words (I have put them in bold)
Let me repeat the EU rules which the UK can apply:


Is the point you are trying to make is essentially "them lot coming over here and working" which we cant control???

Firstly, there might be the odd irony going over heads.

I don’t get why when the subject of free movement is discussed it turns to whether EU migrants are working or not. It’s irrelevant whether they are or aren’t. I’ve been completely consistent throughout - the issue (which evidently a large segment of the wider populace share) is with population growth. Whether someone comes to work or whether they don’t (and whether they then get deported or not) is simply irrelevant.

Anyone who seriously thinks it’s good policy to let people in and then deport them if they don’t get a job is living in fantasy land - it would be difficult and costly to enforce for a start.

 

[bramling]

I would also like to ask where I gave my opinion about immigration. I am pretty sure I haven't said anything about my view on the subject (I am willing the be proven wrong) I have just called out other peoples views on the subject and EU Legislation / UK Law on immigration without giving an opinion.

Might be worth re-reading exactly what I wrote. My words were chosen carefully, and they still stand.

 

[nidave]

So you are dodging the replies about the EU laws that say if someone is not contributing to the UK then we can remove them - so it must be the fact that all these people are coming over here and contributing to the country that's getting you so upset.

These people who usually retire to their country of birth therefore they don't cause a strain on the NHS. If housing is such a big issue (housing these people who work and pay council tax, tax, national insurance etc and are contributing to the pensions of the current people who are retired) for you why has the government not done anything to solve the issue.

Like put in a law to release the 100's of empty homes to housing associations.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42536418

Or allow councils to build new council housing?
Your fix is to make everyone poorer and destroy jobs just to stop people living here by leaving the EU and all problems caused by this. Its a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[bramling]

So you are dodging the replies about the EU laws that say if someone is not contributing to the UK then we can remove them - so it must be the fact that all these people are coming over here and contributing to the country that's getting you so upset.

These people who usually retire to their country of birth therefore they don't cause a strain on the NHS. If housing is such a big issue (housing these people who work and pay council tax, tax, national insurance etc and are contributing to the pensions of the current people who are retired) for you why has the government not done anything to solve the issue.

Like put in a law to release the 100's of empty homes to housing associations.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42536418

Or allow councils to build new council housing?
Your fix is to make everyone poorer and destroy jobs just to stop people living here by leaving the EU and all problems caused by this. Its a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Firstly, I would still vote to leave even without the freedom of movement issue.

Secondly, you say allowing councils to build new council housing. This takes us back to issues over lack of space. Where do you propose all these council houses are built in the congested south-east? Where is the space for the transport requirements - bearing in mind many roads and railways are at or near capacity? How are they going to get services like water and gas when networks are “strained” and “under pressure”?

I would rather British youngsters have the likelihood of owning their own home (i.e. being able to afford something rather than competing in a market open to the population of 27 other countries), like their predecessor generations did, rather than the ability to live/work elsewhere in the EU, something the vast majority won’t take up.

Likewise the contribution made depends very much on the job being carried out - it’s very hard to argue that someone on minimum wage working in a cafe will be covering their costs, especially if they have a family. Which brings us back to controlled migration - as generally advocated by the leave side.

 

[Howardh]

Firstly, there might be the odd irony going over heads.

I don’t get why when the subject of free movement is discussed it turns to whether EU migrants are working or not. It’s irrelevant whether they are or aren’t. I’ve been completely consistent throughout - the issue (which evidently a large segment of the wider populace share) is with population growth. Whether someone comes to work or whether they don’t (and whether they then get deported or not) is simply irrelevant.

Anyone who seriously thinks it’s good policy to let people in and then deport them if they don’t get a job is living in fantasy land - it would be difficult and costly to enforce for a start.

Ok, so if it's so difficult to deport them, what will we do with all the EU's coming in via the Irish Border unchecked who will be here without a job? By your reckoning we can't do anything with them. I will admit, however, that as they have arrived unknown, we wont know they are here so they won't appear in the official stats, which makes a mockery of them!
If they end up in the south east then they are adding to your congestion issues, except they won't be in the figures.

 

[bramling]

Ok, so if it's so difficult to deport them, what will we do with all the EU's coming in via the Irish Border unchecked who will be here without a job? By your reckoning we can't do anything with them. I will admit, however, that as they have arrived unknown, we wont know they are here so they won't appear in the official stats, which makes a mockery of them!
If they end up in the south east then they are adding to your congestion issues, except they won't be in the figures.

I wouldn’t be having the situation where there is a border where EUs can enter unchecked. I’d have a hard border between the two parts of Ireland, however if that’s so unacceptable then (assuming the EU and ROI agree) I’d be quite happy for there to be a border between GB and NI instead if that’s what the people of NI would prefer.

I don’t consider it unreasonable for a choice to have to be made between those two options.

 

[EM2]

Secondly, you say allowing councils to build new council housing. This takes us back to issues over lack of space. Where do you propose all these council houses are built in the congested south-east? Where is the space for the transport requirements - bearing in mind many roads and railways are at or near capacity? How are they going to get services like water and gas when networks are “strained” and “under pressure”?

Thousands of properties already built that are empty to start with.
Plenty of ex-industrial brownfield sites for a second thing.
Before that though, you invest in your infrastructure and build better utilities networks.

I would rather British youngsters have the likelihood of owning their own home (i.e. being able to afford something rather than competing in a market open to the population of 27 other countries), like their predecessor generations did, rather than the ability to live/work elsewhere in the EU, something the vast majority won’t take up.

If there's more housing, supply will increase and prices will fall.

Likewise the contribution made depends very much on the job being carried out - it’s very hard to argue that someone on minimum wage working in a cafe will be covering their costs, especially if they have a family. Which brings us back to controlled migration - as generally advocated by the leave side.

So they don't pay VAT on food and clothing? Duty on fuel, alcohol and tobacco? IPT and fuel duty for their car? Airport Departure Tax when they fly home for visits?
I'd wager that they're more than 'covering their costs'.

 

[HH]

You can have hard borders wherever you like, but we have hard borders with non-EU countries already and that doesn't stop immigration. In the year to June 2018 net migration was 273k; non-EU immigration was 316k.

Brexiteers got fooled again.

 

[Howardh]

I wouldn’t be having the situation where there is a border where EUs can enter unchecked. I’d have a hard border between the two parts of Ireland, however if that’s so unacceptable then (assuming the EU and ROI agree) I’d be quite happy for there to be a border between GB and NI instead if that’s what the people of NI would prefer.

I don’t consider it unreasonable for a choice to have to be made between those two options.

Have you thought of getting that past the DUP?

On a techical issue, if NI remained fully in the EU due to the Irish Sea border, and my passport says "Subject of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", and my address isn't on it (it isn't of course) then would that qualify me for freedom of movement as they wouldn't know that I wasn't Northern Irish?

 

[nidave]

Firstly, I would still vote to leave even without the freedom of movement issue.

Secondly, you say allowing councils to build new council housing. This takes us back to issues over lack of space. Where do you propose all these council houses are built in the congested south-east? Where is the space for the transport requirements - bearing in mind many roads and railways are at or near capacity? How are they going to get services like water and gas when networks are “strained” and “under pressure”?

I would rather British youngsters have the likelihood of owning their own home (i.e. being able to afford something rather than competing in a market open to the population of 27 other countries), like their predecessor generations did, rather than the ability to live/work elsewhere in the EU, something the vast majority won’t take up.

Likewise the contribution made depends very much on the job being carried out - it’s very hard to argue that someone on minimum wage working in a cafe will be covering their costs, especially if they have a family. Which brings us back to controlled migration - as generally advocated by the leave side.

Sigh. You really are a broken record. There is plenty of space outside the S. East. Did an eu national outbid you for a house at sone point.

Have you any proof that people from the eu are not covering Thier costs of living especally as they contribute about £2000 more to the treasury than they take out.

Ignoring all the mild racism in your posts how do UK nationls live in the south east then on minimum wage if it's such a problem and why does is it only a problem for you when it's eu nationls living on min wage.

Will leaving the eu increase the minimum wage paid by employers?? What eu directives dictate the UK min wage amounts ? Can you point to it.


You talk about housing. I assume you are a house owner I'm not. I can't get the deposit together at the moment and I'm on a good salary. This is more to do with the sub prime crash in the USA and UK banks now demanding higher deposits than before the 2008 crisis. How will leaving the eu change the lending rules set by the bank of England.

Is it the eu who are only building property that's being brought by rich investers from the middle east and being left empty. Is it the eu that is doctitating the price of land in the south (or both) can you point to the directives as that would be a national scandle lf so.

Is it the eu who decides what tye of property we build. Be it multi million pound property or social housing??

 

[radamfi]

Compared to other world cities, London is particularly low density with so much housing being 2-storey terraced or even semi-detached.

 

[Howardh]

Sigh. You really are a broken record. There is plenty of space outside the S. East. Did an eu national outbid you for a house at sone point.

Have you any proof that people from the eu are not covering Thier costs of living especally as they contribute about £2000 more to the treasury than they take out.

Ignoring all the mild racism in your posts how do UK nationls live in the south east then on minimum wage if it's such a problem and why does is it only a problem for you when it's eu nationls living on min wage.

Will leaving the eu increase the minimum wage paid by employers?? What eu directives dictate the UK min wage amounts ? Can you point to it.


You talk about housing. I assume you are a house owner I'm not. I can't get the deposit together at the moment and I'm on a good salary. This is more to do with the sub prime crash in the USA and UK banks now demanding higher deposits than before the 2008 crisis. How will leaving the eu change the lending rules set by the bank of England.

Is it the eu who are only building property that's being brought by rich in esters from the middle east and being left empty. Is it the eu that is doctitating the price of land in the south (or both) can you point to the directives as that would be a national scandle lf so.

Just out of interest, are there any stats as to who owns property in London? Most would be British I assume, but the rest, what's the split EU/RoW? Of course it may be the case that the very expensive properties are owned by Russians/Middle easterners who have a few bob, but the property under, what, a million? And how much is taken up by landlords who over-charge their rent because they can?

 

[nidave]

Just out of interest, are there any stats as to who owns property in London? Most would be British I assume, but the rest, what's the split EU/RoW? Of course it may be the case that the very expensive properties are owned by Russians/Middle easterners who have a few bob, but the property under, what, a million? And how much is taken up by landlords who over-charge their rent because they can?

That's a good point. It's t it developers who decide what type of housing to build and who to sell them too. Was seeing if I could find a figure anywhere. I can't at the moment.

I did come across this gem

A major downturn in the housing market could reduce the number of affordable homes built by a quarter, the property firm Savills has warned.

Savills estimates that about 100,000 new homes a year – a third of the government’s 300,000 target – need to be priced at levels below the going market rate, whether for rent or for sale.

Property downturn could reduce number of affordable homes built by 25%

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ld-halve-building-of-affordable-homes-savills

Which seems to throw a spanner in the idea mooted that stopping people from the eu coming here and causing house prices to fall will solve the housing issue.

 

[Howardh]

That's a good point. It's t it developers who decide what type of housing to build and who to sell them too. Was seeing if I could find a figure anywhere. I can't at the moment.

I did come across this gem

Property downturn could reduce number of affordable homes built by 25%

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ld-halve-building-of-affordable-homes-savills

Which seems to throw a spanner in the idea mooted that stopping people from the eu coming here and causing house prices to fall will solve the housing issue.

I have always said that some late-middle aged home owners in the SE could move north, get a similar house for half-the-price (or better) and live off the balance - the same applies if they left and went to most areas of Europe.
If I were between 52-55 I'd certainly think of it as early retirement, sell for, what, £600k and buy somewhere similar in a quieter area for less than half and live off the difference until pension day.

 

[nidave]

Bramling.. How will stopping people who come to the UK to work and contribute towards the treasury and help pay for current pensioners make this recent news any better???

Is it eu nationals (we may I remind you work and pay into the system. Those that can't support themselves can be removed but that's not the thrust of you argument its only working eu nationals that upset you aparrently.) causing poverty in the elderly or could the problems all be of our own making.

One in six pensioners is now living in poverty as a result of declining home ownership, soaring rents and the benefits freeze, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has warned. Pensioner poverty is rising, having fallen steadily for nearly two decades, the charity said. The figures prompt fears that many pensioners will be forced to choose between paying for heating and buying food this winter, as benefits remain frozen below inflation for the third year in a row.

Pensioner poverty rises as benefits freeze bites

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/09/pensioner-poverty-rises-bnefites-freeze

 

[nidave]

I have always said that some late-middle aged home owners in the SE could move north, get a similar house for half-the-price (or better) and live off the balance - the same applies if they left and went to most areas of Europe.
If I were between 52-55 I'd certainly think of it as early retirement, sell for, what, £600k and buy somewhere similar in a quieter area for less than half and live off the difference until pension day.

I suspect the answer is along the lines of "why should I, it's everyone else that's the problem and won't someone please think of the children"

 

[bramling]

Thousands of properties already built that are empty to start with.
Plenty of ex-industrial brownfield sites for a second thing.

Please come to my town and show me where both these are!

Before that though, you invest in your infrastructure and build better utilities networks.

For some reason this simply doesn't seem to happen in this country.

If there's more housing, supply will increase and prices will fall.

Yes that's what we'd expect to see in a normal market. Two problems:
(1) How much extra housing do we think there would need to be before there's a noticeable effect?
(2) If immigration increases again by a bit, you're then quickly back to square one.

So they don't pay VAT on food and clothing? Duty on fuel, alcohol and tobacco? IPT and fuel duty for their car? Airport Departure Tax when they fly home for visits?
I'd wager that they're more than 'covering their costs'.

Maybe. It'd be interesting to see some stats on this, although naturally being indirect taxation it's hard to quantity.

 

[bramling]

I have always said that some late-middle aged home owners in the SE could move north, get a similar house for half-the-price (or better) and live off the balance - the same applies if they left and went to most areas of Europe.
If I were between 52-55 I'd certainly think of it as early retirement, sell for, what, £600k and buy somewhere similar in a quieter area for less than half and live off the difference until pension day.

Unfortunately the above doesn't apply to me as I'm not at that age-group yet.

Yes people *could* move north, however not everyone wants to cut themselves off from the area they were born in / lived all their lives / where their family ties are.

Many householders in the SE, particularly those from the baby boom generation, could probably sell their modest homes in the SE area and replace with palaces in parts of the north (outside of the traditional "honeypot" areas perhaps). No doubt many already do this. But it's a bit of a step to take - as when you reach much later in life all of a sudden there's a problem as you now have no family nearby, leading to two problems (I) the potential for another move at a time of life where it's not ideal, or (ii) family having to make long journeys on a regular basis. So it might work for some, but it's not a silver bullet by any stretch.

Then there's the question many would ask which is "why should I move home to make way for immigrants?".

In my case I'd love to live somewhere in the north, or perhaps west. However I like my house, and won't change jobs for anything in the world, which kind of ties me to where I am. So we have something small in the north-east to visit on occasions instead.

 

[bramling]

Compared to other world cities, London is particularly low density with so much housing being 2-storey terraced or even semi-detached.

And London is all the better for it. In the parts of London where this sort of housing is reasonably well kept (somewhere like Kew springs to mind as an instant example) it delivers an excellent standard of living with a great ambience.

By contrast some of the recent high-density monstrosities like being built at Colindale are ghastly.

As an aside, how many of these "low density" terraced or semi properties are divided up into rooms / flats though? In some areas I suspect that percentage will be fairly high.

 

[nidave]

Please come to my town and show me where both these are!



For some reason this simply doesn't seem to happen in this country.

Your solution to the lack of investment is not to invest more where everyone benefits but to solve the problem be suppressing demand. Do you set pricing for aTOC?

Can you tell me how leaving the eu and the reduction of income to the government from these eu workers who as we recall contribute more than they take out in services, is going to help with investment in infrastructure ??

 

[nidave]

Then there's the question many would ask which is "why should I move home to make way for immigrants?".

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. You voted to leave the EU because racism with a dash of "won't someone please think of the children"

 

[bramling]

Sigh. You really are a broken record. There is plenty of space outside the S. East. Did an eu national outbid you for a house at sone point.

Nope. My house was paid off when I was in my early 30s, and I've no desire to move.

Have you any proof that people from the eu are not covering Thier costs of living especally as they contribute about £2000 more to the treasury than they take out.

How often do we hear about how we need EU migrants to do the low-skilled jobs. One of the remain side's repeated argument is that they're needed to do the jobs that "British people don't want to do". Reality is low skilled means low pay and that means low tax contribution.

Ignoring all the mild racism in your posts

If all else fails try that one?!

how do UK nationls live in the south east then on minimum wage if it's such a problem and why does is it only a problem for you when it's eu nationls living on min wage.

Please elaborate as I don't quite get what you're saying on this one.

Will leaving the eu increase the minimum wage paid by employers??

Why would it? Wages are generally determined by supply versus demand.

You talk about housing. I assume you are a house owner

Correct.

Is it the eu who are only building property that's being brought by rich investers from the middle east and being left empty. Is it the eu that is doctitating the price of land in the south (or both) can you point to the directives as that would be a national scandle lf so.
Is it the eu who decides what tye of property we build. Be it multi million pound property or social housing??

Sure I'm sure there's properties in central London being bought by foreign investors, however I do think this is overstated. You won't find empty properties in the London suburbs, and likewise you won't find it in the home counties. What is happening in the home counties are people are fleeing London to buy something bigger within commuting distance from London, and because "we can't stand London any more". This is happening to all the properties in my road, one by one. Locals from the area then find prices going up and up until they're unaffordable to many - meanwhile trains to London get busier and busier with people treating the home counties, in some cases quite far out, as London suburbs.

Of course the EU doesn't make these decisions, but supply versus demand does - just like most things in life. The EU *has* contributed to the supply side thanks to its freedom of movement policy. One simply can't argue differently - just look at the numbers coming in and where most have settled.

 

[bramling]

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. You voted to leave the EU because racism with a dash of "won't someone please think of the children"

Please feel free to put words in my mouth if you want.

If all else fails let's go down the racism route...

 

[nidave]

Please feel free to put words in my mouth if you want.

If all else fails let's go down the racism route...

You were the one that werote the text I was nearly quoting your words.

 

[Howardh]

Unfortunately the above doesn't apply to me as I'm not at that age-group yet.

Yes people *could* move north, however not everyone wants to cut themselves off from the area they were born in / lived all their lives / where their family ties are.

Many householders in the SE, particularly those from the baby boom generation, could probably sell their modest homes in the SE area and replace with palaces in parts of the north (outside of the traditional "honeypot" areas perhaps). No doubt many already do this. But it's a bit of a step to take - as when you reach much later in life all of a sudden there's a problem as you now have no family nearby, leading to two problems (I) the potential for another move at a time of life where it's not ideal, or (ii) family having to make long journeys on a regular basis. So it might work for some, but it's not a silver bullet by any stretch.

Then there's the question many would ask which is "why should I move home to make way for immigrants?".

In my case I'd love to live somewhere in the north, or perhaps west. However I like my house, and won't change jobs for anything in the world, which kind of ties me to where I am. So we have something small in the north-east to visit on occasions instead.

If you love it where you are so much, then stop moaning and learn to live with our EU immigrants who are making a net contribution to our economy, and let the rest of us enjoy our freedom of movement even if you don't want to use it!
Can't be that bad if you aren't prepared to move away!!!

 

[bramling]

Your solution to the lack of investment is not to invest more where everyone benefits but to solve the problem be suppressing demand. Do you set pricing for aTOC?

It's all very well saying invest, but the *reality* is this country has a history of not doing that. In recent years our public finances (allegedly) haven't been in a healthy state, and then there's the issue is that investment is extremely expensive and disruptive due to the dense nature of parts of the UK. Clearly the money's not there or else we'd be doing it.

Even something like adding a lane to a section of motorway is hideously expensive due to things like land values, the amount of property that might be affected, and having to plan works to minimise disruption and gridlocking a whole area.

You might find a morning peak road journey in parts of Hertfordshire a sobering experience!

Can you tell me how leaving the eu and the reduction of income to the government from these eu workers who as we recall contribute more than they take out in services, is going to help with investment in infrastructure ??

Expensive investment that might not be necessary if population ceases to grow at such a high rate.

 

[nidave]

So you want to keep people out who contribute to the country because we are incapable of investing. Why are only eu nationals (those who work and contribute remember) the problem to you.

If your so worried about the infrastructure and housing why not ban anyone moving into the south and while we are at it compulsory sterilization for anyone with more than one child.

Making the country poorer and destroying my vote for peace in n. Ireland is worth it I suppose. So you don't have to deal with rush hour.

 

[Esker-pades]

It's all very well saying invest, but the *reality* is this country has a history of not doing that. In recent years our public finances (allegedly) haven't been in a healthy state, and then there's the issue is that investment is extremely expensive and disruptive due to the dense nature of parts of the UK. Clearly the money's not there or else we'd be doing it.

The state of our public finances is nothing to do with immigration. It is to do with the financial crash of 2008.

Even something like adding a lane to a section of motorway is hideously expensive due to things like land values, the amount of property that might be affected, and having to plan works to minimise disruption and gridlocking a whole area.

You might find a morning peak road journey in parts of Hertfordshire a sobering experience!

Expensive investment that might not be necessary if population ceases to grow at such a high rate.

No... because traffic jams, train overcrowding etc. are happening now. We're playing catch-up.

 

[nidave]

You might find a morning peak road journey in parts of Hertfordshire a sobering experience!

Is it because of all those foreigners going to work every day. So you want to ban other people from working just so you get a seat on a train or don't have to queue at a junction for as long. That's rather selfless of you.

Why not work from home or look elsewhere where you don't have to travel so much if it's all to hard for you.

 

[nidave]

The state of our public finances is nothing to do with immigration. It is to do with the financial crash of 2008.

Plus government austerity and the unwillingness to borrow at historically cheap rates to improve the country.

Plus the unwillingness to actually pay for things through higher taxes like Dr's and teachers.