Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[mmh]

Have you been on them? Here are some through the square window pictures:

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr


As a daily Marston Vale user we cant wait for them to start. 40 years old or not ( which the mechanical gubbins aren't!) they will still be better than the rotten dog box. OBVIOUSLY I would like a brand new train but having a working 230 is better than a broken ( more and more often) 153. I am sick of having to walk to Bletchley. So yeah, not bothered about the 40 year old train IF it is better than the 35 year old train.

PS I also have a video of the train moving: https://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/46330869991/in/dateposted-public/

Very good pictures (and others on your Flickr account too!), thank you for those.

They do rather prove my point though. Not a single person whose ever been to London would get on that and not think one or both of "wait, this is an old Underground train" or "this is a bit rubbish".

When the first 230 actually appears on a Transport For Wales service there will be a hoo-hah, I guarantee that.

 

[deltic08]

I believe it was so that they could standardise the sub surface fleet on a single type of rolling stock, which carries huge cost saving benefits.

They are not truly sub surface.

No, they weren't "old and obsolete" as tube trains. They were perfectly good for many more years' service - it just happens that LU were given a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to upgrade and replace the whole subsurface fleet. TfL's money troubles are almost entirely down to the current government's complete inability to fund anything properly, and has nothing to do with S Stock procurement.

As I said poor accounting.

 

[mmh]

For the Marston Vale due to platform/level crossing positions your other option is basically Stadler (or used Class 150).

Your Swiss-ophilia is well known, but to suggest only Stadler could build a train for a route because of level crossing positions is stretching it a little!

 

[mmh]

No, they weren't "old and obsolete" as tube trains. They were perfectly good for many more years' service - it just happens that LU were given a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to upgrade and replace the whole subsurface fleet. TfL's money troubles are almost entirely down to the current government's complete inability to fund anything properly, and has nothing to do with S Stock procurement.

You're just making yourself look ignorant now.

There's no need to patronise. TFL's predicament is largely due to reduced fare revenue and excessive expenditure on surface transport. They used to have a very healthy surplus. The trains were old, and every user of them knew they were.

 

[deltic08]

Have you been on them? Here are some through the square window pictures:

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Bletchley by DarloRich2009, on Flickr


As a daily Marston Vale user we cant wait for them to start. 40 years old or not ( which the mechanical gubbins aren't!) they will still be better than the rotten dog box. OBVIOUSLY I would like a brand new train but having a working 230 is better than a broken ( more and more often) 153. I am sick of having to walk to Bletchley. So yeah, not bothered about the 40 year old train IF it is better than the 35 year old train.

PS I also have a video of the train moving: https://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/46330869991/in/dateposted-public/

So by accepting an inferior product, that only does 60mph at a push, you expect anything better in the short or medium term? What about EWR, what then? 60mph to Oxford on a line engineered for 100mph?
The next thing will be Government making all secondary routes 60mph to reduce track maintenance costs. Thin edge of the wedge and all that.

 

[deltic08]

Deleted

 

[philthetube]

I wonder how many other commercial organisations under the current financial stringencies that apply on setting up a new company to market a single project that uses a limited amount of working stocks would, after a time period of four years, when incurring all financial costs of the said project, noting the amount of monies garnered inwards into the financial coffers from sales or leasing agreements to offset those costs which in this particular example is not at all good, view matters?

I am sorry to be so business-minded, rather than seeing "innovative project matters" as others have done on this thread in the past, but for the last thirty-five years of my business life, commercial reality was my sole concern in life. To slightly amend an old sign in a shop, "Do not ask for commercial reality as a refusal often offends", would be seem to be a sign that could well find a home in some of my past decriers upon this thread.

I am really struggling to make sense of this sentence, am I the only one?

It was because they were old and obsolete as tube trains. Yet miraculously they were fantastic as soon as they're used anywhere else.

The "hand-me-downs are ok for the provinces" line never goes down well. It'll go down worse when the press and public discover not only are they hand-me-downs but weren't good enough for the London Underground.

If replacing them was supposed to save money it doesn't seem to have worked. TFLs are not in a good place financially. Although to be fair that may be as much to do with it being a complete basket case all round than a single train order

Dstock was considered a good train by both drivers and fitters, they were disposed of mainly to increase capacity and standardise the fleet, but also partly because of the single leaf doors which slowed loading.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am really struggling to make sense of this sentence, am I the only one?

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a daily Marston Vale user we can't wait for them to start.

It must have been most disappointing when you heard that Vivarail announced that they were not able to have the promised Class 230 units running on your line when the December 2018 timetable came into force and I suppose that your local TOC was therefore somewhat annoyed to have to state that the rolling stock status quo would be still operational at that moment in time.

I looked on the "News" section of the Vivarail website for information, but the last updated news item concerned the fact that a cake had been made in the style of a Class 230 carriage. This of course, brought to mind the famous saying of a European member of a royal family...."Let them eat cake"...

 

[hooverboy]

Where have your financial figures above come from and why have you used the word "possibly".

For the actual procured sales with the interior fitments as ordered, how do your figures above equate?

given the life expectancy of these things is probably 30-40% of a new unit, I would bloody well expect these things to be MUCH less than 30-40% of the price!
If I was in charge of procurement my target figure would be in the region of 20% or under!

 

[Dstock7080]

I always thought that the 4 single door openings became regarded as a lot less than ideal, in terms of opening/closing speed, aperture width and passenger familiarity difference to just about every other tube and sub service stock, for the busy sections of the District Line.

Was never a problem operating them.
The trains the D Stock replaced in the early ‘80s had uneven spaced doors of 4’6” double and 2’6” single width; D Stock had evenly spaced 3’6” single doors with only one door engine, a saving of 4 door engines per car.

 

[jimm]

There's no need to patronise. TFL's predicament is largely due to reduced fare revenue and excessive expenditure on surface transport. They used to have a very healthy surplus. The trains were old, and every user of them knew they were.

You seem to be forgetting that the this year is the first TfL has had to get by without a nice big government grant to help with operating costs - which amounted to almost £600m in 2015 - this change probably made balancing TfL's books just a tad more difficult.

Transport for London (TfL) had been told in 2013 it would eventually have to be self-sufficient with its operating costs.
Today it was told by when.
There will be no more general grants from the government for day-to-day running of services from 2018 - earlier than TfL thought.
That grant currently stands at £591m a year but it will be tapered down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34923879

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

Which sounds a lot like the way that Hitachi and the other parties involved in Agility Trains had to fund all the work on the IEP project for several years up to the point the first trains started running in October last year and revenue finally started to come in.

If the people behind Vivarail had decided at some point that it was no longer worth the trouble of funding further work on the project, then they have always had the option of shutting down the operation and selling off the D-stock coaches parked at Long Marston for scrap to recover some of their outlay.

They have chosen not to do so, and have continued to finance the project or been able to secure further funding from other sources, so clearly still believe that the commercial risk involved will be worth it in the end.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

It's their money. No public subsidy. Perhaps you should address your points to the company.
I'm sure the word "overheads" is understood. Perhaps it is your use of archaic phrasing and long sentences that is a problem for some people.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It must have been most disappointing when you heard that Vivarail announced that they were not able to have the promised Class 230 units running on your line when the December 2018 timetable came into force and I suppose that your local TOC was therefore somewhat annoyed to have to state that the rolling stock status quo would be still operational at that moment in time.

I looked on the "News" section of the Vivarail website for information, but the last updated news item concerned the fact that a cake had been made in the style of a Class 230 carriage. This of course, brought to mind the famous saying of a European member of a royal family...."Let them eat cake"...

Not true, Vivarail put out a very clear statement at the end of November announcing the delay and taking the blame fair and square. A refreshing openness that others in the rail industry would do well to follow. Or did you miss that news item in the desire to make a cheap jibe about cake?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's their money. No public subsidy. Perhaps you should address your points to the company.
I'm sure the word "overheads" is understood. Perhaps it is your use of archaic phrasing and long sentences that is a problem for some people.

I am well aware of the wide and varied participation by the Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, including their financing and shareholding projects world-wide, some of which have been in Europe of which Vivarail is but one of these, so there may well be certain benefits from the Class 230 project that can be cost offset against other European operations in their balance sheet.

The English language is a wonderful entity which should be used to its fullest extent, rather that the insidious Americanisation that has unfortunately been seen as an accepted norm.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not true, Vivarail put out a very clear statement at the end of November announcing the delay and taking the blame fair and square. A refreshing openness that others in the rail industry would do well to follow. Or did you miss that news item in the desire to make a cheap jibe about cake?

Perhaps you have not had a full development of a sense of humour, as the "cake" item so referred to was that which was the last reported item in the Vivarail "News" part of this website. Credit me with having the knowledge of exactly what Adrian Shooter said in the other news item, which was reported in a number of other media sources, not just in the Vivarail "News" section. Remember the granted twelve month agreement to run a service for evaluation on the Coventry to Nuneaton line granted to Vivarail which never reached fruition because of problems that so occurred in one of their "innovative" modes of operation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Perhaps you have not had a full development of a sense of humour, as the "cake" item so referred to was that which was the last reported item in the Vivarail "News" part of this website. Credit me with having the knowledge of exactly what Adrian Shooter said in the other news item, which was reported in a number of other media sources, not just in the Vivarail "News" section. Remember the granted twelve month agreement to run a service for evaluation on the Coventry to Nuneaton line granted to Vivarail which never reached fruition because of problems that so occurred in one of their "innovative" modes of operation.

You just didn’t mention it, and gave the impression that Vivarail only puts out fluffy or positive news items, when the truth is to the contrary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You just didn’t mention it, and gave the impression that Vivarail only puts out fluffy or positive news items, when the truth is to the contrary.

It may pay you to read every "News" item that has ever appeared in the Vivarail website before being so certain.

 

[krus_aragon]

The English language is a wonderful entity which should be used to its fullest extent, rather that the insidious Americanisation that has unfortunately been seen as an accepted norm.

I'll grant you that Paul, but the sentence you used earlier:

I wonder how many other commercial organisations under the current financial stringencies that apply on setting up a new company to market a single project that uses a limited amount of working stocks would, after a time period of four years, when incurring all financial costs of the said project, noting the amount of monies garnered inwards into the financial coffers from sales or leasing agreements to offset those costs which in this particular example is not at all good, view matters?

is a bit of a behemoth. It took me three passes to follow your meaning. Thirty words before the first punctuation is probably a few too many. There are a lot of subordinate clauses* obscuring your key question, which is (I believe) "I wonder how [many other companies] ... view matters?" It's a valid point, but I fear many will have missed it.

There's room for eloquence in the world, but I can't help thinking that sentence will have had the Plain English Campaign running for the hills.

*I hope that's the correct grammatical term

 

[DarloRich]

Very good pictures (and others on your Flickr account too!), thank you for those.

They do rather prove my point though. Not a single person whose ever been to London would get on that and not think one or both of "wait, this is an old Underground train" or "this is a bit rubbish".

When the first 230 actually appears on a Transport For Wales service there will be a hoo-hah, I guarantee that.

It is an old tube train but it is better than what we have now. It is certainly better than the 153. It has wifi, a decent internal layout and a retention toilet accessible to disabled people. Obviously the selection of this unit is a compromise but the 150 and 153's needed to go as they are promised to Northern where they are needed to improve services. We have some challenges on the Vale ( platform length, signal positions, level crossings) meaning very few units will actually fit. We basically have a choice of 230's, 150' 153's and Pacers. Personally the later would be fine for this route but I suspect unpalatable to almost everyone involved from the top down. They also only have limited life left.

No one was going to fun any platform extension, selective door controls or changes to the signalling locations until E-W delivers so we are left with a compromise. Unless that is you fancy transferring some 150's from Northern

So by accepting an inferior product, that only does 60mph at a push, you expect anything better in the short or medium term? What about EWR, what then? 60mph to Oxford on a line engineered for 100mph?
The next thing will be Government making all secondary routes 60mph to reduce track maintenance costs. Thin edge of the wedge and all that.

#

Eh? These units aren't going to run to Oxford. They are going to run between Bletchely and Bedford on local services until E-W pays out. Then I expect the local service to be included in whichever operator takes the E-W route. We should then get a newer unit with selective door controls. The reason these trains are needed is to allow the 3 x 150's ( and some 153's?) to move to northern land meaning LNWR have nothing suitable to run these services. Perhaps they should just give up and we can all walk to work? What is your solution for this issue. Shall we cancel the unit transfers to Northern where I suspect they are badly needed? LNWR really need 4 x 150 so which Northern services shall we not enhance? Your call. I am very happy to keep the 150. Remember this line is a diesel island in an electric sea. It is always going to be a micro fleet.

BTW at what point between Bedford and Bletchley does a unit stopping every half inch exceed 60 mph? Perhaps you could tell me. I know the answer but wonder if you do.

BTW 2 - the Vale is maintained to a higher speed than 60 and has some decent quality track work .

It must have been most disappointing when you heard that Vivarail announced that they were not able to have the promised Class 230 units running on your line when the December 2018 timetable came into force and I suppose that your local TOC was therefore somewhat annoyed to have to state that the rolling stock status quo would be still operational at that moment in time.

I looked on the "News" section of the Vivarail website for information, but the last updated news item concerned the fact that a cake had been made in the style of a Class 230 carriage. This of course, brought to mind the famous saying of a European member of a royal family...."Let them eat cake"...

Very much so. Passengers were very disappointed to hear about the delays. There has been genuine excitement and interest in these new trains with people talking about seeing them out an about. It seems ( anecdotally) that all of us regulars on the vale are very keen to see the back of the 153's if only to remove the smell of urine!

it is also worth noting these delays are also a blow to people in Northern land. They are waiting for the 3 x 150's ( and perhaps some of the 153's) to help improve services.

 

[Doomotron]

Where have your financial figures above come from and why have you used the word "possibly".

For the actual procured sales with the interior fitments as ordered, how do your figures above equate?

You'll be telling us all next that all those stated savings you mention will be passed onto prospective purchasers rather than Vivarail selling these units at what they see as a commercial market unit rail rate....

It may have been a guess, but we know the Class 230s are cheaper than new stock.

It must have been most disappointing when you heard that Vivarail announced that they were not able to have the promised Class 230 units running on your line when the December 2018 timetable came into force and I suppose that your local TOC was therefore somewhat annoyed to have to state that the rolling stock status quo would be still operational at that moment in time.

I looked on the "News" section of the Vivarail website for information, but the last updated news item concerned the fact that a cake had been made in the style of a Class 230 carriage. This of course, brought to mind the famous saying of a European member of a royal family...."Let them eat cake"...

Can you please name a train that was introduced into service on time and flawlessly? Not many.

given the life expectancy of these things is probably 30-40% of a new unit, I would bloody well expect these things to be MUCH less than 30-40% of the price!
If I was in charge of procurement my target figure would be in the region of 20% or under!

The Class 230s have had 15 years added to the D-Stock's life expectancy. However, this is a useless figure because in the end it's maintenance that will decide how long they last.

The English language is a wonderful entity which should be used to its fullest extent, rather that the insidious Americanisation that has unfortunately been seen as an accepted norm.

Even Shakespeare is easier to read than whatever you wrote - I stopped bothering reading it by the middle of the first line. Just to note, Shakespeare wrote his plays like a poem or song, so even though his plays have long sentences, they are separated, which makes them easier to read. It's the words used that makes Shakespeare hard to read.

If people can't bare to read your writing, there's two possible reasons:

• Everybody who tries to read it is lazy.
• You're not that good with English.

So if people don't understand your writing, don't be toxic and say "do I have to tell you what this word means?", try looking at what you've written.

Spoiler

I can't believe this post has become an explanation of Shakespeare's writing style. Let's get back on topic please, in English.

 

[coppercapped]

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

So, pretty much the same situation that Hitachi faces.

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

That may be so, and no doubt Vivarail would have wished to get the 230 up and running more quickly and sell more of them by now. The small number of sales so far is unlikely to have recovered those overheads or the up-front investment in buying, designing, building, testing, demonstrating and marketing.

However all that is sunk cost. Any units they sell from now onwards to the existing design will essentially only incur the direct cost of conversion, so will give a better return and go some way to recovering the money spent. Assuming they have the funding to continue as a going concern, this is their best course of action (they are talking up prospects in the USA). If the haven't the funding, or don't expect any further sales, then they would sell off the D78s at scrap value which is moreorless what they paid for them.

And to repeat the point, this has been a speculative venture by the private sector. Unusually for a railway project it hasn't cost the taxpayer anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So by accepting an inferior product, that only does 60mph at a push, you expect anything better in the short or medium term? What about EWR, what then? 60mph to Oxford on a line engineered for 100mph?
The next thing will be Government making all secondary routes 60mph to reduce track maintenance costs. Thin edge of the wedge and all that.

They aren't for EWR. For EWR the platform works will be done to allow 2x24m units to operate, or some stations may close. They are a "cheap and cheerful" solution to last 10-15 years with no changes to the existing infrastructure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your Swiss-ophilia is well known, but to suggest only Stadler could build a train for a route because of level crossing positions is stretching it a little!

The only manufacturers presently offering a "new" DMU to the UK market which is more than 23m long but less than 40m long are Stadler and Vivarail. The only other viable option is to buy Northern an extra 3 x Class 195 in return for 3 x Class 150. But why should LNR passengers pay for Tesco Finest and get Tesco Value?

(Level crossing positions mean that without infrastructure work, which will not be forthcoming prior to EWR, it is not possible to operate a 2x23m or 2x24m unit on the Marston Vale, even with SDO or using local door - same as LNR on the Stoke "wobble" - and 1x23m does not provide enough capacity for certain busy trains)

 

[philthetube]

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

I do know what overheads means, thank you for you concern. I also know what patronizing means though I have to wonder if you do.

It is interesting that comments have been made about that post since you simplified it so either we are all thick or it was unintelligible to many of us, either way you were wasting your time writing it in that style.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

I must just say that I'm really interested in the 230 project and I truly hope it works out. However, this thread has degenerated into a very frustrating read.

Keep checking on updates hoping for some juicy info on where the project is up to, but no, it's now a stream of posts having a moan at grammar or being downright nasty at times.

Come on peeps, can we drop it now?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is interesting that comments have been made about that post since you simplified it so either we are all thick or it was unintelligible to many of us, either way you were wasting your time writing it in that style.

Many on this website, including the forum staff, have been aware of an unfortunate side-effect of the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 at the age of 67, which meant that my cognitive reasoning ability was affected and when in print, I have a tendency to write in a way that my brain thinks that I should express my thoughts. Before that unfortunate event, I prided myself on having a good command of the English language.

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry that you are troubled in this way. Briefly, four years have elapsed, in which time all the total project overheads (do I have to tell you what this word means?) have had to be paid with little or naught in the way of sales monies in return.

The backers of the project are obviously happy to carry the costs. The conversion costs will also be low once there is a settled product. The cost will have been in prototyping, over coming the engineering challenge and gaining product & technical approval. That has been done. The issue will be what they do if further sales do not appear. I think it likely ( but not certain) they will gain further orders IF the trains on the Marston Vale work well.

The price will be low (certainly less than a new train) for the buyer and the entry into service should be fairly swift.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I am well aware of the wide and varied participation by the Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, including their financing and shareholding projects world-wide, some of which have been in Europe of which Vivarail is but one of these, so there may well be certain benefits from the Class 230 project that can be cost offset against other European operations in their balance sheet.

The English language is a wonderful entity which should be used to its fullest extent, rather that the insidious Americanisation that has unfortunately been seen as an accepted norm.

And the best English uses short words and short sentences unless longer words are necessary.