Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[DarloRich]

Should ban bikes on the dogbox unless they're fold up. Happens up here too, cue 15 passengers having to detrain just to let a bike off/on!

Not sure that is practical

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should ban bikes on the dogbox unless they're fold up. Happens up here too, cue 15 passengers having to detrain just to let a bike off/on!

Banning bikes on a line like that would be stupid, it's little-used enough as it is.

Indeed, LM had a publicised local arrangement to carry 4 (or 6, I forget) rather than 2 by putting some in the wheelchair area on the condition that they alight if a wheelchair user wishes to board. I think that continues under LNR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're right about that but even so, knowing what the D78 sounded like in its original guise, there's no hiding that is one noisy traction inverter, probably the noisiest I've encountered outside a Velaro, which you can forgive a bit more as they are much more soundproofed inside and are capable of near enough 200mph.

I don't think that's the case. Mobile phones artificially amplify sound when filming so they can make use of their very small and non-directional microphones - the traction inverters on Class 800s and FLIRTs also sound horribly loud on mobile phone videos but aren't in real life. Notice also how incredibly loud the conversations on board sound - I bet they were not like that in real life.

 

[A0wen]

Travelled on the route once and that was before Bedford- Cambridge closed so can't remember line let alone station and level crossing frequency

Why maintain such a short route to a higher line speed limit if trains can't reach that speed in day to day operating. Bonkers. Harrogate line is maintained to 60/65mph but running trains capable of 100/125 mph that could run at 80/90 between stations as 99% of the track is cwr on concrete sleepers and deep ballasted and 90mph signalling spacing and sighting. Equally bonkers.

I think you should keep your 150s. You are welcome to them after experiencing 170s on my local line and I am sure Northern could spare 3 or 4. They have 156s, 158s and 170s cascaded from Scotland coming out of their ears at the moment with 195s and 769s to come. Although having said that, the 150 refurbs are acceptable but not great.

Why not have the 3 150/0 units and keep them together and will give you capacity in the peaks being 3-car.

I'm going to hazard a guess that there are a number of factors which determine line speed, including what the geology of the land under the line is, whether there are water courses or other things nearby as well as the route of the line in terms of camber, curves etc.

It may be that maintaining a line at a higher speed attracts no overhead given those kind of factors - but I'm guessing someone like @Bald Rick would be able to confirm?

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't think that's the case. Mobile phones artificially amplify sound when filming so they can make use of their very small and non-directional microphones - the traction inverters on Class 800s and FLIRTs also sound horribly loud on mobile phone videos but aren't in real life. Notice also how incredibly loud the conversations on board sound - I bet they were not like that in real life.

I'll have another listen later on. Personally I do think the inverters on 800s are quite loud in real life as well but that may be because my expectations are higher given the role they're filling.
The UK Flirts seem much quieter than their European equivalents, presumably due to using a fairly high 4kHz control frequency. The kit on 230s is quite low frequency (1kHz I think?) which will sound a lot more obtrusive as a result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope there isn't an audible 4kHz sound, that's quite nasty on the ears. One bad feature of the MK electric buses is some quite high frequency sounds which are very unpleasant on the ears of anyone who can still hear them (a bit like the "Mosquito" teenager repellent or dog whistles).

 

[eastwestdivide]

Should ban bikes on the dogbox unless they're fold up. Happens up here too, cue 15 passengers having to detrain just to let a bike off/on!

If 15 people need to get off to allow a bike out of the luggage area, surely the trains need more seats.

 

[BucksBones]

I’m astonished that the original interconnecting doors between the carriages have been retained. I can’t imagine they are compatible with modern safety standards...?

 

[najaB]

I’m astonished that the original interconnecting doors between the carriages have been retained. I can’t imagine they are compatible with modern safety standards...?

The doors won't be a problem if the carriages have a sealed coupling.

 

[samuelmorris]

I hope there isn't an audible 4kHz sound, that's quite nasty on the ears. One bad feature of the MK electric buses is some quite high frequency sounds which are very unpleasant on the ears of anyone who can still hear them (a bit like the "Mosquito" teenager repellent or dog whistles).

It's definitely there, you can hear it on some of the testing videos. It will probably be barely audible inside the unit though if they have good soundproofing, it isn't too loud externally.

Junipers have an even higher frequency drive at around 5kHz and I don't find that too grating.

 

[BucksBones]

The doors won't be a problem if the carriages have a sealed coupling.

Fair enough. Still seems odd to have interconnecting doors without a corridor connection in this day and age. Anyone know if they are still meant for emergency use only as per LU?

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought the doors were being modified to make them suitable for non-emergency use?

 

[BucksBones]

I thought the doors were being modified to make them suitable for non-emergency use?

It’ll be interesting to see how. They looked original in the video of 230002 that was posted, but of course that unit may not yet be in its final state of preparation for service.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Will be interesting to see if the TfW units have them too, as in the mock-ups of their units they are opened up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the doors were being modified to make them suitable for non-emergency use?

AIUI a UIC style rubber gangway surround is being fitted.

 

[najaB]

AIUI a UIC style rubber gangway surround is being fitted.

Thanks, that was the word that I couldn't remember for the life of me!

 

[HLE]

If 15 people need to get off to allow a bike out of the luggage area, surely the trains need more seats.

Haha with over 50/60 standing on a single 153 each weekday morning it sure does need more capacity! Record is 10 standing in No.2 vestibule (narrow end) and 2 rows of 5 between bike rack and bog. 15 is more the norm though in that section of the unit.

The bikes are a pain in the arse.

 

[jamesbwxm]

I often wonder in these enlightened days of education how many pupils leave school with the knowledge of the correct use of both adverbs and adjectives.

This the Internet, I was under the impression that any post about spelling or grammar must contain a spelling or grammatical error by law.

 

[eastwestdivide]

...
The bikes are a pain in the arse.

You need a better saddle then!

But we're coming from the same place - train inadequate for demand, whether that demand is people without bikes or people with bikes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm going to hazard a guess that there are a number of factors which determine line speed, including what the geology of the land under the line is, whether there are water courses or other things nearby as well as the route of the line in terms of camber, curves etc.

It may be that maintaining a line at a higher speed attracts no overhead given those kind of factors - but I'm guessing someone like @Bald Rick would be able to confirm?

There’s over 80 (eighty) different infrastructure factors that can influence linespeed, of which track componentry and track geometry (curvature) are but two. From memory there are some antiquated bits of track down there (there used to be bullhead jointed track on concrete sleepers around Fenny Stratford, I hope that’s gone now), but I suspect most of it has gone.

I don’t know that line particularly well, but I would guess that the key issues for linespeed are level crossing sighting for the numerous footpath / bridleway crossings, level crossing risk, and maintenance. I’d also have a fiver that all the strike ins for the highway level crossings are set for 60mph.

On the maintenance point, the route is 60mph with very light traffic. Making it 75mph would double the track patrolling frequency, which although a relatively small ongoing cost, is completely wasted if the trains can barely get to 60mph because of the stopping pattern.

 

[BucksBones]

AIUI a UIC style rubber gangway surround is being fitted.

Thanks, that was the word that I couldn't remember for the life of me!

Ah I see! Thanks both, that makes sense. Probably a silly question (and arguably tangential) but what’s UIC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah I see! Thanks both, that makes sense. Probably a silly question (and arguably tangential) but what’s UIC?

https://uic.org/ - basically an organisation for rail standardisation.

 

[DarloRich]

There’s over 80 (eighty) different infrastructure factors that can influence linespeed, of which track componentry and track geometry (curvature) are but two. From memory there are some antiquated bits of track down there (there used to be bullhead jointed track on concrete sleepers around Fenny Stratford, I hope that’s gone now), but I suspect most of it has gone.

That has gone now - we had an upgrade some time ago.

On the maintenance point, the route is 60mph with very light traffic. Making it 75mph would double the track patrolling frequency, which although a relatively small ongoing cost, is completely wasted if the trains can barely get to 60mph because of the stopping pattern.

The freight doesn't half shift along. Much faster than the passenger trains

 

[D365]

Regarding the inverter sound - you really don’t hear it above 10mph. In fact, on 001 at least, the DC motors are the loudest sound above that speed.

There’s tons of complaints on YouTube about the inverter sound of 002, but I’ve taken low speed videos of it (on a proper camera albeit) and again the noise isn’t significant.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Does anyone have any news on the battery version of the Class 230? What about the range on battery mode, i read that it can do 100km between charges. What it didn't say was the speed at which is test was conducted, the number of people on board and if it was a constant speed run, or a realistic stop start commuter service that this unit is likely to be used on. I was just wondering if anyone knew anything?

 

[big all]

Does anyone have any news on the battery version of the Class 230? What about the range on battery mode, i read that it can do 100km between charges. What it didn't say was the speed at which is test was conducted, the number of people on board and if it was a constant speed run, or a realistic stop start commuter service that this unit is likely to be used on. I was just wondering if anyone knew anything?

would suggest 100km between charges is where there is some perhaps 15- 25% off time on the "juice" throught the journey so not enough charge time to fully charge the batteries so batteries will run down
no train as far as i know will have any chance off traveling more than 20-25 miles without further repleneshing the batteries but fully a guess as i am no expert

 

[gingertom]

would suggest 100km between charges is where there is some perhaps 15- 25% off time on the "juice" throught the journey so not enough charge time to fully charge the batteries so batteries will run down
no train as far as i know will have any chance off traveling more than 20-25 miles without further repleneshing the batteries but fully a guess as i am no expert

Vivarail was making use of the batteries recycled from the 379 project. I understand they have sourced a new type of battery with associated charging and management systems that is an improvement in performance over those ex 379. This translates into improving the range and charging time.

 

[big all]

i love the 230 project with a passion but suspect a 100 km or perhaps 62 miles will be with many many provisos as in everything will be 100% lined up in a row in an unreal situation where in fact actual situation may be perhaps 56-57 miles after 2 months so a sustainable say 50 miles per full charge with a little bit off charge in reserve

 

[superkev]

i love the 230 project with a passion but suspect a 100 km or perhaps 62 miles will be with many many provisos as in everything will be 100% lined up in a row in an unreal situation where in fact actual situation may be perhaps 56-57 miles after 2 months so a sustainable say 50 miles per full charge with a little bit off charge in reserve

As pointed out by Ian Warmsley in Modern Railways the economics of batteries are not too good with the leasing cost of the battery being the same as the train with a new one required every 7 years or so.
And, presumably they will still need diesel for the heaters like most of the electric buses running round some of our city's.
K

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Anyone have any links to the spec sheets for the Class 230’s which include things like the weight of the units and the dimensions.