Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Mogster]

The peak time TPE Chat Moss service from Oxford Road - WNW was very popular with the regular punters, too popular for TPE... It does demonstrate what happens when you have decent stock on a NW local service though, increased demand.

I don’t see how TPE won’t encounter the same overcrowding problem with Piccadilly - Bolton though.

 

[Elecman]

By making the services pick up northbound set down only southbound at Bolton but totally unenforceable

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought that Wigan was removed from the stops to help prevent overcrowding on the TPE services as they were handy for local journeys.

Part of it was to maintain the original (via Bolton) times at Preston.
Oxford Road is skipped for the same reason.
The following Northern 319 to Blackpool picks up the Wigan stop.

 

[Starmill]

The peak time TPE Chat Moss service from Oxford Road - WNW was very popular with the regular punters, too popular for TPE... It does demonstrate what happens when you have decent stock on a NW local service though, increased demand.

There are still express services between Manchester and Wigan, the Manchester Airport (MIA) <> Blackpool North (BPN) via Wigan North Western (WGN).

 

[Starmill]

By making the services pick up northbound set down only southbound at Bolton but totally unenforceable

Given that not all services were to have a call at Bolton (as per the May 2018 timetable that was uploaded and then binned), and that screens and NRE will hide stops that are pick up only, then only those who look for departures from their origin station, or use an open data website such as BRTimes, will know about the stop.

Anyone who thinks to board the train and just assumes it will stop at Bolton (as sometimes happens on other routes where stops are thus designated) will come unstuck sooner or later and get taken to Preston.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Part of it was to maintain the original (via Bolton) times at Preston.
Oxford Road is skipped for the same reason.

I don't think that is true at all. They have been running via Wigan since Chat Moss was electrified. The Wigan stop was only removed this May and that coincided with a retiming of the northbound services at Preston from xx:58 to xx:04.

I think it was entirely due to overcrowding on the TPE service and Northern introducing an alternative service.

 

[PN27]

I don't think that is true at all. They have been running via Wigan since Chat Moss was electrified. The Wigan stop was only removed this May and that coincided with a retiming of the northbound services at Preston from xx:58 to xx:04.

I think it was entirely due to overcrowding on the TPE service and Northern introducing an alternative service.

Not entirely- there's also the fact that TPE was supposed to stop serving Wigan then anyway (as they should have been running via Bolton), and the fact that they had to be fitted into the Chat Moss service pattern when they weren't supposed to be there.

 

[geoffk]

By making the services pick up northbound set down only southbound at Bolton but totally unenforceable

Would this mean no local passengers between Manchester and the airport? In other words, first setting down point from MIA would be Preston? Given that the new trains will be five cars, such a restriction is surely only needed during the evening peak.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I doubt it. Manchester Airport - Piccadilly isn't that busy usually and I certainly have never had to stand. Nothing like Manchester - Bolton.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not entirely- there's also the fact that TPE was supposed to stop serving Wigan then anyway (as they should have been running via Bolton), and the fact that they had to be fitted into the Chat Moss service pattern when they weren't supposed to be there.

The removal of the Wigan stop was facilitated by the new Northern service though. There would have been howls of protest if Wigan had completely lost its fast service to Manchester. Though protest about declining services rarely leads to anything as we keep getting told we should look at the bigger picture, i.e. the person complaining doesn’t matter.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Blackpool - Manchester electrification.

If anyone wishes to discuss any other topic, such as addressing the overcrowding on this route, or the timetable, etc please create a new thread in the appropriate area.

I have split some posts into : https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rowding-between-manchester-and-bolton.175226/

 

[Muenchener]

Is it not possible that, when a TPE service is re-introduced, the Northern service is such that the new rolling stock and frequencies mean that no Northern or TPE service is overloaded on the Bolton corridor?

As I understood it; TPE were only going to be routed via Wigan for the duration of the electrification project before returning to Scotland services to the Bolton corridor. At which point Wigan will served by Northern returning to the position as was in 2015?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it not possible that, when a TPE service is re-introduced, the Northern service is such that the new rolling stock and frequencies mean that no Northern or TPE service is overloaded on the Bolton corridor?
As I understood it; TPE were only going to be routed via Wigan for the duration of the electrification project before returning to Scotland services to the Bolton corridor. At which point Wigan will served by Northern returning to the position as was in 2015?

Not quite.
There were no Wigan-Manchester services via Golborne until Dec 2013 when the TPE Scotland 350s started.
In the new franchise specs, TPE were to resume running Scotland services via Bolton, with Northern offering a replacement service via Golborne (to Barrow/Windermere).
As far as we know that is still the long-term plan.

 

[Muenchener]

Not quite.
There were no Wigan-Manchester services via Golborne until Dec 2013 when the TPE Scotland 350s started.
In the new franchise specs, TPE were to resume running Scotland services via Bolton, with Northern offering a replacement service via Golborne (to Barrow/Windermere).
As far as we know that is still the long-term plan.

Thanks for filling in the knowledge/history gap.

Much as I'd like to see TPE back on the corridor i would miss the ability to get a direct train to Barrow.

winners and losers I guess...

 

[59CosG95]

GSoP Post 33.0 - tying up loose ends
Manchester Victoria - Preston; State of Play, week beginning 17th December 2018.
All wire runs up and LIVE!
Speed changes still seem to be postponed, despite all wires being live. Test runs with both a 390 & a 319 seemed to have gone without a hitch. Any outstanding points are highlighted in red.

All mileages from Manchester Victoria. Bridge mileages are approximated where noted.

1. Man Vic Station (Platforms 3-6) - Man Vic West Jct - Deal Street Jct; 0m 0ch to 0m 32ch
Fully wired and energised 2013-15.
(N.B. Platforms 1 & 2 at Man Vic have now been bedanglied; more masts may still need to be installed at the east side of Man Vic before wires can go up over all lines; however this is not considered as part of this programme. Wires due to go up here over Christmas, in conjunction with the installation of the "Great Extension Lead" from Stalybridge.)

2. Deal Street Jct - Windsor Bridge South Jct; 0m 32ch to 1m 46ch
Fully wired and LIVE as of 1/10/18. Wires overlap into the CEMEX sidings (Hope Street). At Salford Central, the westbound (Down) platform has had RSC ducting installed at shin height.
Protruding roof beams were also cut back to facilitate the addition of wires. With Salford Central now wired, all wires are up from Manchester Victoria & Manchester Piccadilly to Euxton Jct.

3. Windsor Bridge South Jct - Windsor Bridge North Jct (inc. Salford Crescent); 1m 46ch to 1m 70ch
Salford Crescent station is fully wired; this includes all crossovers & lines. Wires are also up on the overruns along the Atherton Line.

4. Windsor Bridge North Jct - Bolton (South End); 1m 70ch to 10m 50ch
At Agecroft, there are a couple of masts (sans wires) in the bush alongside the sidings, leading to a terminal gantry with very odd attachments. Do these now have wires?
At Clifton, Drainage manhole modules are awaiting installation; temporary covers are over their future homes. Have these been installed?
Bridge MVE1 27B (immediately NW of the M60 overbridge) is now open.

5. Bolton Station; 10m 50ch
Canopies look complete, and platforms now fully open. All wiring is complete, both on the main lines, the side platforms and the overrun towards Blackburn.
UTXs wait to be installed in the works compound west of the track off Platform 5. Have these been installed?

6. Bolton (North End) - Euxton Jct; 10m 50ch to 25m 31ch
C&C wires up on the overlap on both Wigan lines until the Limit of Wiring.

Platform extension/resurfacing work complete on the Down platform and the Up platform at Lostock.
The arrangements at Lostock ATF station were designed to support the electrification to Wigan, so the UTX was sized to take four feeder cables to the proposed neutral section located towards Westhoughton. Two feeders for each track, one each side of the NS. Wigan-Lostock has no AF, classic boosterless only.

Orangemen at work on the footpath at the foot of the northern steps of Heath Charnock FB. Has this concluded?

Do let me know if I've missed anything!

 

[geoffk]

Any news on when ORR is going to sign it all off?

 

[DJH1971]

Any news on when ORR is going to sign it all off?

It certainly must be very soon

 

[Class 170101]

Doesn't there need to be a double Pendolino test (one Pendolino on each line)? I seem to recall such a test was done between Manchester and Liverpool via Chat Moss?

 

[CHAPS2034]

Any news on when ORR is going to sign it all off?

It certainly must be very soon

Doesn't there need to be a double Pendolino test (one Pendolino on each line)? I seem to recall such a test was done between Manchester and Liverpool via Chat Moss?

I refer you to my post 9155 - more testing yet to be done. To save you the bother of going back here it is again.

Official Video of the Pendo test from NR

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....es-through-bolton-as-upgrade-nears-completion

The accompanying text contains the following information which may be of interest to those who must have missed it first time around...

"This week’s test runs are the first of two phases to check new electrical infrastructure works correctly. The second, in early January, will check the infrastructure can handle faster train speeds for improved passenger journey times."

 

[Ken H]

Doesn't there need to be a double Pendolino test (one Pendolino on each line)? I seem to recall such a test was done between Manchester and Liverpool via Chat Moss?

they used to use 'load bank' locomotives. what is a load bank, and is that what the pendos are doing now?

The load bank was 84 003 which became ADB968021

 

[DJH1971]

they used to use 'load bank' locomotives. what is a load bank, and is that what the pendos are doing now?

The load bank was 84 003 which became ADB968021

I thought it was 84009?

 

[LOL The Irony]

I don’t see how TPE won’t encounter the same overcrowding problem with Piccadilly - Bolton though.

I don't recall the 6 car 185's being overcrowded unless I remember wrong.

 

[edwin_m]

they used to use 'load bank' locomotives. what is a load bank, and is that what the pendos are doing now?

Essentially a load bank is a massive electrical resistor connected between the pantograph and the rails. This allows test to take place where a large amount of electrical current flows through it.

Someone seems to have decided that testing with trains like Pendolinos that need a large amount of current does the same thing without having to have a load bank.

 

[Jonny]

Do they want the Heyrod connection in place before full testing?

 

[SansHache]

The next stage of testing (in January) will be with a Class 319 operating at the new line speed limits (up to 100mph) with the existing feeder arrangement.
Once the Heyrod feeder is connected the Pendolino tests will be repeated. These tests verify the performance of the power supply when drawing loads up to 7.5MW and also during regen braking.

 

[Chester1]

I don't recall the 6 car 185's being overcrowded unless I remember wrong.

The 350s are 4 car and the 397s 5 car. If it becomes a major issue and set down / pickup only does not work then the stop should be ommitted entirely during the evening peak with Bolton passengers needing to take a Northern service to Preston and board the TPE Scotland service there. I suspect if Northern can actually manage to run a half decent EMU service it will not be a huge problem.

 

[Ken H]

I thought it was 84009?

you are right

84003 and 84009 passed to the Research Division: 84009 was rebuilt as a load bank tester and 84003 was used for spares. They were given departmental numbers ADB968021 and ADB968022 respectively, although the latter was never applied. In 1995 84009 was broken-up following withdrawal from its load bank duties; one cab of this locomotive was saved together with a quantity of spares.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_84#After_withdrawal

 

[jw]

Forgive me if this has been answered on one of the previous 300-odd pages, but when complete, which services will transfer from diesel to electric? How many DMUs will be displaced?

 

[Elecman]

Manchester Blackpool

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Manchester Blackpool

That's true physically, but it will also include cross-Manchester services and permit 769s to replace DMUs on presently all-diesel routes (eg Alderley Edge/Stalybridge-Wigan).