More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

[delt1c]

you said you wouldn"t comment further

 

[AlexNL]

As to the idiots trespassing, a few convictions might go a long way to addressing the issue either that or a general ban on Kettles on the National Network.

Prosecute and convict everyone who's trespassing (there's plenty of video evidence) and fine those who stand way too close to the edge of the platform.

Banning "kettles" will just disappoint everyone. The enthusiasts, but also the hard-working staff who put in countless hours of their time to get the trains mainline worthy.

 

[delt1c]

Prosecute and convict everyone who's trespassing (there's plenty of video evidence) and fine those who stand way too close to the edge of the platform.

Banning "kettles" will just disappoint everyone. The enthusiasts, but also the hard-working staff who put in countless hours of their time to get the trains mainline worthy.

Hear Hear, lets stop blaming others.

 

[DarloRich]

Hear Hear, lets stop blaming others.

No one is blaming others. Only you trying to conflate two issues to support your ludicrous position.

And yes I did say I would not comment further on your posts but they are so utterly preposterous as to require some rational comment.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unfortunately it will take someone being killed before being stopped.
It’s not just the old that get all misty eyed about steam, all ages do it. You only have to be somewhere like Doncaster or York on a Saturday when there’s a steam special running to see people balancing on the edge of the platform as if they’re on a tightrope. That goes for the people on the tours too. I remember back in May 2016 when Flying Scotsman pulled in at York. We were forbidden to pass a certain point on the platform by the BT police yet as soon as the tour percipients arrived off the train of all ages they were allowed to the far end of the platform and snap away at will all in front of the same BT police.
Grumpy & cantankerous they were too. “Out of my way I’m on the tour you know” they bellowed.

The police will almost certainly have checked that there are no other train movements at the location before allowing people to go to the far end of the platform. That situation only applied after the special had actually arrived.
When you see 1960s photos with photographers on the track, the rail official in charge of the tour had always (or should have) ensured that all trains had stopped and all signals were set at danger.

 

[delt1c]

Amazing how individuals can expect others to be responsible for their actions

 

[Muenchener]

The police will almost certainly have checked that there are no other train movements at the location before allowing people to go to the far end of the platform. That situation only applied after the special had actually arrived.
When you see 1960s photos with photographers on the track, the rail official in charge of the tour had always (or should have) ensured that all trains had stopped and all signals were set at danger.

For info this was a Northern Saturday timetable; no trains and some buses. This excursion both outbound and inbound, plus ECS move at the end of the day, was the only traffic on Saturday. Effectively; it was a heritage line...

 

[yorkie]

Amazing how individuals can expect others to be responsible for their actions

It's not as simple as that, but some of us do jobs which do require us to do something about certain behaviours otherwise we are considered to be not doing our job properly.

I suggest you do some research regarding having a 'duty of care'.

You may also find this thread enlightening: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ife-changing-injuries-for-13-year-old.170629/

These people will get puffer buffer tours stopped. You will only have your fellow steam buffs to blame.

If you see this kind of behaviour and don't challenge it you are complicit with it.

I often do challenge bad behaviour when I see it (most people do not) except there are occasions when it isn't safe to do so. It isn't always safe or possible to challenge bad behaviour, but that doesn't necessarily mean being complicit with it.

That said, looking at the footage, people should have challenged that behaviour. But maybe they did. If I was there I would have challenged it, but there isn't anything more you can do other than instruct them and call the police.

Sooner they stop these railtours the better, it's a working railway not an enthusiasts playground.

I don't think the operator should be prevented from operating based on the behaviour of random members of the public observing the train at remote locations.

 

[DanDaDriver]

For info this was a Northern Saturday timetable; no trains and some buses. This excursion both outbound and inbound, plus ECS move at the end of the day, was the only traffic on Saturday. Effectively; it was a heritage line...

So the guy on the sleeper ends knew there were no STP movements, tampers, NMT passes or general non public timetabled stuff?

 

[DarloRich]

@yorkie it is good you challenge but many do not. I realise I am more confident than many here especially with things like this but if these people are not challenged steam specials will be stopped and soon. Do we want that?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Challenging someone is one thing but there are many nutters out there who, when aroused, can get nasty and a simple polite challenge can quickly escalate into something that gets out of hand (like the man who punched a passenger on a train giving him life-changing injuries...can't remember the thread now, but it was recent)

 

[Muenchener]

So the guy on the sleeper ends knew there were no STP movements, tampers, NMT passes or general non public timetabled stuff?

Probably yes. I'm not condoning the actions of the two individuals trackside but suggesting the risk was significantly reduced due to the absence of Northern traffic that day.

 

[Meerkat]

People should take responsibility for their own behaviour?
How about the poor driver who hits a muppet photographer - you think they will be just peachy after being told “not your fault mate”?

They don’t even need to convict, a few arrests and chats under caution should cause the necessary social media kerfuffle. The fact it gets dropped after a few weeks won’t get so much attention.

 

[Ianno87]

Probably yes. I'm not condoning the actions of the two individuals trackside but suggesting the risk was significantly reduced due to the absence of Northern traffic that day.

It is never safe to enter a live railway environment. End of.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Probably yes. I'm not condoning the actions of the two individuals trackside but suggesting the risk was significantly reduced due to the absence of Northern traffic that day.

The only person who can give you that assurance is the signaller, which is why “looking on real-time trains,” isn’t part of PTS

 

[tbtc]

They pay their way just like any other train, and usually bring in a considerable amount of goodwill to the railways.

Charters don't pay their way - if a scheduled TOC service breaks down then they have to pay all the associated compensation to all of the companies that they disadvantage - Charters don't have to pay those full costs though.

Also, Track Access Charges only cover the standard cost to Network Rail of that kind of train running on that kind of infrastructure - not the cost of some poor bloke in hi-vis trying to argue with petulant enthusiasts who feel like they have special privilege to ignore safety warnings/ notices/ instructions.

The "entitlement" of these people is going to cause serious injury one of these days.

People should take responsibility for their own behaviour?
How about the poor driver who hits a muppet photographer - you think they will be just peachy after being told “not your fault mate”?

Good point.

Some people on here are quick to demand absolute safety in all areas of railway operation (e.g. you can't put a price on having multiple Safety Critical employees on board) but then prepared to turn a blind eye when numpties stand on the tracks flailing their arms or trying to take a "perfect" picture.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Charters don't pay their way - if a scheduled TOC service breaks down then they have to pay all the associated compensation to all of the companies that they disadvantage - Charters don't have to pay those full costs though.

That changed years ago. Charter operators pay for delays unless they pay for an insurance cap. Charters also pay roughly the same for delays a freight operators so we'd best ban all freight trains as well.

It has also been stated on here by at least one knowledgable insider that TOCs don't pay the full cost. Network Rail normally ends up paying some of the TOC compensation even for delays caused directly by TOCs.

 

[DarloRich]

Challenging someone is one thing but there are many nutters out there who, when aroused, can get nasty and a simple polite challenge can quickly escalate into something that gets out of hand (like the man who punched a passenger on a train giving him life-changing injuries...can't remember the thread now, but it was recent)

Agreed - but being a big northern bloke with a good repertoire of blunt industrial language and a willingness to use it tends to help.

Anyway: say it, see it, sorted. Exactly what this slogan is for. If you get abuse call it in.

 

[DarloRich]

That changed years ago. Charter operators pay for delays unless they pay for an insurance cap. Charters also pay roughly the same for delays a freight operators so we'd best ban all freight trains as well.

It has also been stated on here by at least one knowledgable insider that TOCs don't pay the full cost. Network Rail normally ends up paying some of the TOC compensation even for delays caused directly by TOCs.

Are you sure you are correct? Could.you provide a link to some documentation?

 

[Bertie the bus]

If you want to search for the ORR consultation documentation from when the change took place then feel free. I'm not going to.

 

[DarloRich]

If you want to search for the ORR consultation documentation from when the change took place then feel free. I'm not going to.

Thanks. I will treat your assertion with skepticism then. I am not sure the rules changed.

 

[Llanigraham]

Glad to here, if i stick my head out an open window and get hit by something is it me or another to blame? reminds me of the the insurance claim, " Lamp Post jumped out in front of me".
Time to take responsibilty fro our action and stop blaming others.

And as usual comments like this totally ignore the affect that their stupid actions will have on their relatives and friends, or the people who will have to clean up the bloody mess afterwards.

 

[Llanigraham]

Probably yes. I'm not condoning the actions of the two individuals trackside but suggesting the risk was significantly reduced due to the absence of Northern traffic that day.

Not relevant.
Whilst there might not be any passenger trains timetabled there is still the possibility of other stuff like tampers using the line.
A perfect example of that is the old lady on the Cambrian who was crossing the line at her UWC one Sunday morning on the way to Chapel when she was hit by a tamper. When asked why she hadn't phoned the Box first, as instructed, she said that there were no trains timetabled on a Sunday morning. She even had a copy of the timetable on her dashboard. That cost her a lot of money AND the loss of her driving licence.

 

[Aictos]

Not relevant.
Whilst there might not be any passenger trains timetabled there is still the possibility of other stuff like tampers using the line.
A perfect example of that is the old lady on the Cambrian who was crossing the line at her UWC one Sunday morning on the way to Chapel when she was hit by a tamper. When asked why she hadn't phoned the Box first, as instructed, she said that there were no trains timetabled on a Sunday morning. She even had a copy of the timetable on her dashboard. That cost her a lot of money AND the loss of her driving licence.

As happened a couple of years ago when some idiots were stopped walking along the track between Baldock and Letchworth, when asked why they were doing it - their reply was simply idiotic, we checked the timetable and there's no more trains running!

 

[Mogster]

The differences in attitudes towards safety even accross Europe are interesting though.

I’ve been to Switzerland for work. The heavy railway runs through towns and Villages with no fencing, just the track on some, nicely maintained shiny Swiss ballast. The carriages were low walk on double deck, the platforms were almost no existent, like a bus stop, and you walked accross the track after you got off...

In the UK it’s as if the railway is radio active and the trains invisible

 

[Ianno87]

The differences in attitudes towards safety even accross Europe are interesting though.

I’ve been to Switzerland for work. The heavy railway runs through towns and Villages with no fencing, just the track on some, nicely maintained shiny Swiss ballast. The carriages were low walk on double deck, the platforms were almost no existent, like a bus stop, and you walked accross the track after you got off...

In the UK it’s as if the railway is radio active and the trains invisible

In the UK it's as if Health and Safety legislation and safety liabilities are different to that of Switzerland...

 

[DanDaDriver]

The differences in attitudes towards safety even accross Europe are interesting though.

I’ve been to Switzerland for work. The heavy railway runs through towns and Villages with no fencing, just the track on some, nicely maintained shiny Swiss ballast. The carriages were low walk on double deck, the platforms were almost no existent, like a bus stop, and you walked accross the track after you got off...

In the UK it’s as if the railway is radio active and the trains invisible

The Swiss general public probably isn’t as thick as the British general public.

 

[delt1c]

And as usual comments like this totally ignore the affect that their stupid actions will have on their relatives and friends, or the people who will have to clean up the bloody mess afterwards.

Have been involved in fatality 1st hand, dont even go down that road

 

[433N]

Whilst much of the discussion here concentrates on the behaviour of 'rail enthusiasts', I think that the average 'rail enthusiast' who frequents this forum will have a good understanding of the dangers of the railway. Particularly the Flying Scotsman, attracts people who have heard of the engine but have little interest other than seeing it and posting a pic of Facebook - oblivious to the dangers they are taking.

I am not a big steam enthusiast myself but do see the odd one or two and actually, I tend to be less enthusiastic than the 'average' Jo or Joanna. Some behaviour of middle-aged ladies astonishes me in these situations.

... and actually, is there any evidence to suggest that the 2 guys on the track are anything more than 2 dudes who heard that the Flying Scotsman was coming through ; not serious misanthropes like us lot.

I noticed this summer at Carlisle, they do have temporary fencing now for when the Fellsman etc... come to town. Depressing that it has come to that. I understand though that for staff, it has become a nightmare and I don't envy them.

 

[Llanigraham]

Have been involved in fatality 1st hand, dont even go down that road

I will go down that road, having been involved with several road fatalities and having friends who get involved with road and rail fatalities.
Your comments:

Glad to here, if i stick my head out an open window and get hit by something is it me or another to blame? reminds me of the the insurance claim, " Lamp Post jumped out in front of me".
Time to take responsibilty for our action and stop blaming others.

are unwarranted and totally ignore the affect on anyone else.