Class 710 LO

[ijmad]

I don't think so. Trimming 10% of the stock from a line with 20 units is a much different headline than "ALL SERVICES CANCELLED — TfL's new fleet costing £Ms dead on arrival".

This could easily result in a 25% capacity reduction on one of the four ELL branches.

 

[superkev]

I wouldn't worry too much, things were similarly bad when the Electrostar was first introduced and look how many of those were ordered. The Aventra has already outsold the Desiro City by a considerable margin. Rolling stock development is too long a process for any TOC to justify cancelling their order and jumping ship. I think it's a foregone conclusion though that 710s aren't going to be seen en masse until the Summer or perhaps even the Autumn, and I don't imagine any of the other fleets will get a look in until a good few 710s are out and about. Whether, once the Goblin units are in, other TOCs are prioritised based on the end of lease arrangements for their existing stock remains to be seen.

The design issues and delays must be costing parent Bombardia a fortune. Bombardias other parts mainly aircraft have been struggling recently too.
K

 

[mrmartin]

The design issues and delays must be costing parent Bombardia a fortune. Bombardias other parts mainly aircraft have been struggling recently too.
K

Agreed. They look like they are in freefall - NY has blocked them from being part of a 2000 (!) car bid because of poor performance, and they've lost 3 major Canadian bids back to back (Montreal, Toronto and ViaRail). Massive issues with other units in delivery in NA also.

They may end up in serious financial difficulty as you say, the aircraft division is wiped out and had to be bailed out by Airbus, and the non-delivery must be causing massive cashflow issues (i assume that the majority of the payment is done on a successful unit delivery).

 

[TRAX]

Only the C-Series program was taken over partly by Airbus (becoming the A220), not the entire Bombardier Aerospace division.

 

[BlyRF]

Just amazing how a manufacturer who inherited some of the networker builds from BREL and gather a lot of customers over the years with their series of turbostar/electrostars and then all of a sudden flop with these aventras, when you have near suscessful units such as Desiros and Junipers rolling from CAF/Simens.

Is it now safe to say British motive engineering is coming to an end?

 

[jon0844]

What's amazing is how long they carried on with old designs. Even the 387s are based on a load of old tech (the computers being incredibly outdated and introducing many software issues as time goes on). I know they say 'if it aint broke...' but was it ever not broke?

Now they have come up with something new, but it seems their poor quality control that has afflicted even trains made with 'tried and tested' designs really shows them up.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss London Overground's Class 710 trains.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please do create a thread (if there isn't one already). The forum has plenty of spare capacity for new threads!

There is a thread to discuss 378s on Barking to Gospel Oak here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-378s-to-be-shortened-to-4-cars-and-used-on-goblin.175622/

 

[TRAX]

Just amazing how a manufacturer who inherited some of the networker builds from BREL and gather a lot of customers over the years with their series of turbostar/electrostars and then all of a sudden flop with these aventras, when you have near suscessful units such as Desiros and Junipers rolling from CAF/Simens.

Is it now safe to say British motive engineering is coming to an end?

I’m sure the first Electrostars had a few teething issues, but understandably fewer than an Aventra would have now as it would have had less software and less control given to the software.

The Aventra is a completely new product, I can’t think of any part of it being an evolution of its Electrostar counterpart; new products typically have even more teething problems than just a new unit of an existing product range. So I’m certainly not the only one here not being surprised with all these Aventra problems.

It does indeed seem that the 710 approval is taking ages, but I’d rather have Bombardier solving all of the issues for a long time than see it have a brake failure (wink wink Hitachi) and eventually killing someone. After all, if you’re being rational, a year long delay doesn’t seem that long compared to the eventual 40 year service life of the train.
Plus anything to do with the first Electrostars on test (sticking with this late 1990s example) would have been less noticed than the same situation with an Aventra as at that time it wouldn’t’ve been "followed" on the internet (forums and social media especially) as much as the 710s are.

Bombardier is having approval issues with their R179 contract for the New York Subway (as a result they were effectively banned from running for the subsequent R211 contract (which was awarded to Kawasaki)), and France’s SNCF has had issues with Bombardier products in the past, most noticeably the late 2000s Z 50000 ‘Francilien’ EMUs; among those were a lot of issues with software. The trains eventually got over all those issues and they are now the most reliable units SNCF have, and we will soon have 360 in service. Mind you, SNCF did put a lot of pressure on Bombardier to solve these issues, which TfL must be doing for their 710 contract, no doubt.

The side effect of the 710 issue (shortage of rolling stock on the GOBLIN due to the transfer of 172 units) is certainly not Bombardier’s fault, but rather the poor management and inflexibility of all parties involved in this cascade.

About the second-to-last part of your message, the Junipers are an Alstom product, and seem not to have worked very well from the start.

So, no, British motive engineering isn’t dying, it’s evolving (as no evolving takes place without a few issues along the way, issues from which we learn); what everyone should rather be concerned about, is how patience is becoming less and less common.

 

[scotrail170407]

Does anyone know when the first 710s will actually enter service? And am I also right in saying that LO’s 315s and 317s will be kept until the 710s are fully in service?

 

[700007]

Does anyone know when the first 710s will actually enter service? And am I also right in saying that LO’s 315s and 317s will be kept until the 710s are fully in service?

No date confirmed. Yes, they will be kept

 

[samuelmorris]

I’m sure the first Electrostars had a few teething issues, but understandably fewer than an Aventra would have now as it would have had less software and less control given to the software.

The Aventra is a completely new product, I can’t think of any part of it being an evolution of its Electrostar counterpart; new products typically have even more teething problems than just a new unit of an existing product range. So I’m certainly not the only one here not being surprised with all these Aventra problems.

It does indeed seem that the 710 approval is taking ages, but I’d rather have Bombardier solving all of the issues for a long time than see it have a brake failure (wink wink Hitachi) and eventually killing someone. After all, if you’re being rational, a year long delay doesn’t seem that long compared to the eventual 40 year service life of the train.
Plus anything to do with the first Electrostars on test (sticking with this late 1990s example) would have been less noticed than the same situation with an Aventra as at that time it wouldn’t’ve been "followed" on the internet (forums and social media especially) as much as the 710s are.

Bombardier is having approval issues with their R179 contract for the New York Subway (as a result they were effectively banned from running for the subsequent R211 contract (which was awarded to Kawasaki)), and France’s SNCF has had issues with Bombardier products in the past, most noticeably the late 2000s Z 50000 ‘Francilien’ EMUs; among those were a lot of issues with software. The trains eventually got over all those issues and they are now the most reliable units SNCF have, and we will soon have 360 in service. Mind you, SNCF did put a lot of pressure on Bombardier to solve these issues, which TfL must be doing for their 710 contract, no doubt.

The side effect of the 710 issue (shortage of rolling stock on the GOBLIN due to the transfer of 172 units) is certainly not Bombardier’s fault, but rather the poor management and inflexibility of all parties involved in this cascade.

About the second-to-last part of your message, the Junipers are an Alstom product, and seem not to have worked very well from the start.

So, no, British motive engineering isn’t dying, it’s evolving (as no evolving takes place without a few issues along the way, issues from which we learn); what everyone should rather be concerned about, is how patience is becoming less and less common.

The first Electrostars caused such grief at c2c they resulted in short-term loans of other stock and ADTranz gave two free units away. No such concession from Bombardier here yet.

 

[aleggatta]

The first Electrostars caused such grief at c2c they resulted in short-term loans of other stock and ADTranz gave two free units away. No such concession from Bombardier here yet.

I do wonder if that is why TFL are made public that they are keeping a single 315- an ideal candidate for a ‘gift’ unit!

 

[rebmcr]

I do wonder if that is why TFL are made public that they are keeping a single 315- an ideal candidate for a ‘gift’ unit!

Oooh, now that's a nice theory!

 

[cav1975]

If they are short of trains for the Barking - Gospel Oak line is there any reason why they couldn't borrow some 314s from Scotland while they are on their way to Booth's?

 

[rebmcr]

If they are short of trains for the Barking - Gospel Oak line is there any reason why they couldn't borrow some 314s from Scotland while they are on their way to Booth's?

Yes, as previously stated.

 

[hwl]

If they are short of trains for the Barking - Gospel Oak line is there any reason why they couldn't borrow some 314s from Scotland while they are on their way to Booth's?

DOO cameras...

 

[OvergroundMatt]

I see from OpenTrainTimes that LO plan to introduce 10tph in each direction on the eastern end of the North London Line in the May timetable change. Quite how that's going to happen, I don't know. It would require GOBLIN to be fully operated by 710s by then, plus a few more 710s available to cover the additional NLL diagrams, and the likelihood of that happening seems a bit remote...

 

[greatkingrat]

Also showing an increase to 4tph on the Watford DC.

 

[Dstock7080]

I see from OpenTrainTimes that LO plan to introduce 10tph in each direction on the eastern end of the North London Line in the May timetable change. Quite how that's going to happen, I don't know.

“one additional train-per-hour Richmond-Stratford and Clapham Junction-Stratford during all peak periods; one additional TPH Watford-Euston throughout the week. Dependant on cl.710 introduction.”

 

[Class 170101]

The signal sighting won't be an easy one to resolve. The Class 172s presumably have views across the whole window as where as the Class 378 has limited view on the right hand side.

 

[59CosG95]

deleted

 

[LLivery]

I see from OpenTrainTimes that LO plan to introduce 10tph in each direction on the eastern end of the North London Line in the May timetable change. Quite how that's going to happen, I don't know. It would require GOBLIN to be fully operated by 710s by then, plus a few more 710s available to cover the additional NLL diagrams, and the likelihood of that happening seems a bit remote...

That's rather impressive on the NLL and considering Stratford is only 2 platforms.

The signal sighting won't be an easy one to resolve. The Class 172s presumably have views across the whole window as where as the Class 378 has limited view on the right hand side.

Could using platforms 7 & 8 be viable?

 

[MatthewRead]

That's rather impressive on the NLL and considering Stratford is only 2 platforms.



Could using platforms 7 & 8 be viable?

Yes but it holds up C2C services on the Grays via Rainham line.

 

[Class 170101]

That's rather impressive on the NLL and considering Stratford is only 2 platforms.

Yes it is although one wonders how long it will be before due to some slight late running or unit failure Platforms 10A or 11 get used instead.

Could using platforms 7 & 8 be viable?

Possibly but it would mean blocking these platforms and interacting with c2c and freight services more whilst changing ends. This may require them to shunt to Upney Jn to clear the platforms which I don't think there is enough time for.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it is although one wonders how long it will be before due to some slight late running or unit failure Platforms 10A or 11 get used instead.


Possibly but it would mean blocking these platforms and interacting with c2c and freight services more whilst changing ends. This may require them to shunt to Upney Jn to clear the platforms which I don't think there is enough time for.

Isn’t at least one of the LO platform lines at Stratford long enough for two trains to fit? IIRC at one time a spare train sat in one platform, but OTOH maybe that was when they were only 4 car...

 

[ijmad]

Note there is another thread discussing use of 378s on the GOBIN.

 

[Class 170101]

Isn’t at least one of the LO platform lines at Stratford long enough for two trains to fit? IIRC at one time a spare train sat in one platform, but OTOH maybe that was when they were only 4 car...

When they were four cars it worked. Not anymore.

 

[swt_passenger]

When they were four cars it worked. Not anymore.

Ok, thanks for confirming.

 

[LLivery]

Yes it is although one wonders how long it will be before due to some slight late running or unit failure Platforms 10A or 11 get used instead.

Yes, I can imagine the performance taking a hit. Using Platform 10A would be quite something; it's unfortunate NLL platforms can't be lengthened without great expense. 8 car trains would've been perfect.

Possibly but it would mean blocking these platforms and interacting with c2c and freight services more whilst changing ends. This may require them to shunt to Upney Jn to clear the platforms which I don't think there is enough time for.

Seems tricky, but after all this mess, hopefully, they'll pull something out of the dark, quickly...

 

[jopsuk]

Yes it is although one wonders how long it will be before due to some slight late running or unit failure Platforms 10A or 11 get used instead.

12 would make more sense, connected to 1 & 2, can be accessed without interfering with any other lines and the lee valley services mainly use 11