Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[Far north 37]

Can you explain why you think a mk5 needs to go to Fort William (or Inverness, Aberdeen or Euston) before they enter passenger service?

Does new stock have to run along the routes they operate for gauging issues or do they just go ok it should be ok now.

 

[greatkingrat]

Can you explain why you think a mk5 needs to go to Fort William (or Inverness, Aberdeen or Euston) before they enter passenger service?

Isn't it traditional to do some testing on new stock rather than just sending it out one night and hoping it all works?

 

[Highlandspring]

Does new stock have to run along the routes they operate for gauging issues or do they just go ok it should be ok now.

The coaches have already been route cleared for all the relevant routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you explain why you think a mk5 needs to go to Fort William (or Inverness, Aberdeen or Euston) before they enter passenger service?

So they can be sure it doesn't knock any platform coping stones off?

The theory of the loading gauge is all very well, but the practice sometimes differs.

 

[Far north 37]

The coaches have already been route cleared for all the relevant routes.

Ah ok i always thought any new stock had to do several runs over the route before being cleared at least once anyway.

 

[sprinterguy]

The coaches have already been route cleared for all the relevant routes.

Not unusual for a TOC to manually measure stepping distances at all relevant stations for new stock, though. And I'd be surprised to see an introduction of wholly new stock to a route based purely on modelled data rather than a physical clearance test.

 

[TimboM]

I'm talking about a single Lowlander achieved in time for Easter. I'm sure it'll be fine.

It's not operationally feasible just to do a single Lowlander (or single Highlander). Both Lowlanders and then both Highlanders will need to switch together. Along with a whole host of other reasons it'd be a major headache, Mk5s need the ETS altered on the 92s back to their original 1500v. Once that's done, they can't work Mk3s.

To work one single northbound Lowlander Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh requires 2x 92s at London (one for ECS, one to take the train to Scotland); then a third at Carstairs, then a loco with Dellners for the Glasgow ECS (92 or 73/9). Those three or four 92s (plus one or two also converted so there's spare/cover) would not be able work the Mk3s so not only would you have 6 locos (say) out of a pool of about 10 only able to operate one of the four rakes in operation you'd need additional locos including an extra one at Carstairs that could work the old stock. Just isn't practical.

There's already 40 Mk5s in the country and another 7 docked in the last 24 hours or so - more than enough for 2x Lowlander rakes (32 coaches).

 

[TimboM]

It is likely there will be some test / training runs over the full runs. When the Lowlanders were due to launch last October there were full "shadow" paths running behind the normal Lowlander just prior to the introduction that presumably were for "trial runs".

However, along the full routes this is likely to be the odd run or three, not weeks of continuous testing over every route. The main test routes were always from Polmadie to Arrochar & Tarbet on the WHL for north of Edinburgh / 73s (with several early test runs last year on this route) and then from Polmadie to Carlisle/Lancaster and various points in between for the WCML testing and mileage accumulation.

Just because Mk5s have not been to every point on the routes yet 3-4 months before the proposed launch doesn't mean it's becoming impossible for those dates to be achieved. Still plenty of time to fit in a small amount of physical test / trial runs to each of the destinations nearer the launch date. I suspect there's bigger challenges to deal with to achieve the latest launch dates, such as continuing to resolve any technical problems with the stock as they arise, training all the staff (train crew, hosts, guards, drivers, shunters, cleaners, maintenance teams etc etc); ensuring all the various shunting manoeuvres still work / can be accommodated etc etc.

 

[Highlandspring]

Funny you mention that because my understanding is that a new shunting plan for splitting and joining mk5s at the Waverley has been produced but I haven’t been able to get hold of any specifics yet..

 

[Maxfly]

Can you explain why you think a mk5 needs to go to Fort William (or Inverness, Aberdeen or Euston) before they enter passenger service?

My understanding is that the on board systems need to be configured for each location or tested at each location. Possibly GPS or the like, possibly for door opening and displays etc.
My memory of the conversation about it is very hazy though.

 

[BRX]

There must be any number of small unforseeable things that might not pop up until you actually physically do a trial run. Surely it would be bonkers to have the first time a load of new stock with different onboard systems, connection points and so on visits each terminus to be on a service run.

 

[TimboM]

Latest batch of Mk5s that arrived at Polmadie (from Tees Dock) on Wed morning were:

​

15328
15320
15319
15318
15306
15204
15108
15009

That's a full half-set with 5x Sleepers (153xx), 1x PRM Sleeper (15204), 1x Club/Lounge (15108) and 1x Seats/Brake (15009)

 

[Scotrail84]

Funny you mention that because my understanding is that a new shunting plan for splitting and joining mk5s at the Waverley has been produced but I haven’t been able to get hold of any specifics yet..

An industry insider informs me that this will involve the FTW portion arriving last but departing first in the morning. All subject to change of course.

 

[Scotrail84]

The coaches have already been route cleared for all the relevant routes.

I remember a 158 removing some copes off the Up platform at Shotts station after they'd been cleared for that route

 

[Scotrail84]

Have been quoted 6 coaches for scrap 10613 10507 10508 10548 10562 10723. Be interesting to see if it happens.

HTH
Mark

6701 - used for spares
10507
10508
10523
10548
10562
10613
10723

 

[TimboM]

An industry insider informs me that this will involve the FTW portion arriving last but departing first in the morning. All subject to change of course.

If I’ve got my logic right this makes sense...

The new sets of 16 are planned to have a half-set with 2x PRM Sleepers which will form the FTW/ABD portions when on Highlander (1x PRM for each of FTW and ABD) and the Glasgow portion on Lowlander; and a half-set with 1x PRM for the Inverness (HighL.) and Edinburgh (LowL.) portions

Currently, the Inverness portion is the north/rear half of 1M16 and therefore forms the Glasgow portion on 1S26 the following night when the sets swap over at Wembley each night.

With the Mk5s the Inverness / 1x PRM half-set now needs to be the south/front half of 1M16 to it can then become the EDB portion on 1S26 the next night after the Wembley swap.

For the northbound Highlander, 1S25 will be formed from the set ex-1M11 the previous night. Hence, the 2x PRM half-set ex-Glasgow will be at the south end of 1S25 the following night, i.e. the ABD/FTW portion will be block end at Euston, which is the reverse of what it is now.

When arriving at Edinburgh, the ABD / FTW will now be the “rear” / west-end half of the train and so will leave first / before Inverness - opposite to now.

 

[BRX]

Why does it matter whether the 2xPRM set goes to Glasgow or Edinburgh? Is it because it has slightly lower capacity and there's more traffic to Edinburgh?

 

[Sleeperwaking]

So they can be sure it doesn't knock any platform coping stones off?

The theory of the loading gauge is all very well, but the practice sometimes differs.

Absolute gauging is generally used for assessing gauge clearance of new fleets, rather than comparison against a loading gauge. This involves building a dynamic model of the critical vehicles in the formation and sending it down a virtual model of the route, built up from the Network Rail National Gauging Database. The assessment is done using worst case conditions for vehicle tolerances and track tolerances, and the resultant clearances have to be accepted by the Network Rail gauging engineer. Unacceptable clearances will require further work before they will be accepted (re-analysis using more accurate / up to date survey data, or infrastructure works) The dynamic model is validated using sway test results etc. from an as-built unit, to ensure that the model-predicted movements are greater or equal to the real movements.

Long story short - the current NR view is that the gauge clearance / certification process is sufficient to confirm route clearance without having to send a train down a route for confirmation.

 

[trebor79]

Scrapping stock now seems risky. Granted it may not be worth doing the exams on them, but surely it would be sensible to leave them parked up for a few.months, just in case. Exams could be done if another delay on the new stock materialises.

And bang goes my idea of setting up a new open access operation if the old stock is just going to be scrapped

 

[Bletchleyite]

And bang goes my idea of setting up a new open access operation if the old stock is just going to be scrapped

Given that there is basically no such thing as a profitable sleeper train...

 

[trebor79]

Ah, but you don't know what I'm planning

 

[InOban]

They would be delighted if anyone would like to 'repurpose' them.. A new generation of camping coaches perhaps?

 

[47271]

I'm sure that it'll all be fine.

 

[Struner]

[...]
And bang goes my idea of setting up a new open access operation if the old stock is just going to be scrapped

as in Central belt - Thurso ?
---Peter.

 

[sd0733]

They look to be on their way to Booths tonight
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03863/2019/01/17/advanced

 

[trebor79]

as in Central belt - Thurso ?
---Peter.

Nope. East Anglia - Aberdeen.

 

[route101]

I remember a 158 removing some copes off the Up platform at Shotts station after they'd been cleared for that route

Is that what prevents 158s being used on GSW and EK routes ?

 

[route101]

There was someone in a sleeper his vis at Carlisle with a measuring wheel going along the platform , might be unrelated though

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This was posted on a Yahoogroup earlier; full length Mk5 test running starts on Tuesday; the poster did make clear that the usual disclaimers apply:


Tuesday 22/1/19.


5M11 0100 Glasgow Central - Euston 1000


5Z13 1100 Euston - Wembley 1130


5Z25 1830 Wembley - Euston 1900


5Z26 2000 Euston - Glasgow Central xxxx


All times are provisional but are around this mark. 92033 & 92038 are planned to work this.


92020 should be on 6X41/6L48 next week on test, with a 66 DIT for insurance.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Why does it matter whether the 2xPRM set goes to Glasgow or Edinburgh? Is it because it has slightly lower capacity and there's more traffic to Edinburgh?

Presumably just to standardise which end the half-set with two PRM sleepers is on. The FTW/ABD half is on the country end of the Highlander at Euston, as the GLC half is on the Lowlander. Means sets can be swapped between the two services at Willesden without having to turn them.