Potential New Central Pennine Rail Line (Colne-Skipton)

[Halifaxlad]

That's a heck of a lot higher cost than its proponents on here have suggested.

The question is does it include double track? At that cost I bloody well hope so!

Anyway isn't they're a separate thread for the Skipton to Colne, naturally I though they would be?

 

[59CosG95]

The question is does it include double track? At that cost I bloody well hope so!

Anyway isn't they're a separate thread for the Skipton to Colne, naturally I though they would be?

Indeed; I'm sure if the project is green-lit, it should be in a dedicated thread. @GRALISTAIR/Admins, I suspect a thread title to include "via Huddersfield" might be necessary...

 

[MarkRedon]

There is a separate thread, moribund for quite a while. It's at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...line-colne-skipton.147658/page-5#post-3201332

I was responding to points made in this thread by trying to summarise news reports on Grayling's opinions - more significant than mine! Reopening Skipton-Colne is clearly at least being thought about in Grayling's Department for Transport. The enthusiasm there - if that is what it is - appears to be associated with the route's potential usefulness for freight, particularly Drax biomass. But freight flows are much more volatile than passenger, so I continue to believe that any case for reopening should be based primarily on any new passenger flows it might create and sustain. Skipton <-> Colne would obviously risk abstracting passenger traffic from the Roses route at least. Strategic considerations include opening up employment and study related travel for a comparatively deprived part of England.

Yes, there is explicit reference to improving the existing railway to Colne, although no detail is given in news reports. Who knows, £400 million might even include something for easing problems at Whitehall junction? But I'm impressed by the argument that the biomass trains are basically replacing coal trains that followed the same route across Leeds.

I'd like to see Skipton <-> Colne reopen. Let's wait and see the numbers first, before jumping to judgement for or against.

 

[Killingworth]

Skipton railway link plan moves a step closer.

See Bradford Telegraph and Argus and other sources; https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17386713.skipton-railway-link-plan-moves-a-step-closer/

TRANSPORT secretary Chris Grayling said today that re-opening the Colne to Skipton rail link by 2025 has moved a significant step closer.

He confirmed the £400million project to extend the East Lancashire Line across the Pennines has been found 'technically possible' by an initial study.

The Cabinet minister announced a second stage investigation into whether the demand for freight traffic on the route would make it commercially feasible.

Mr Grayling, speaking before a visit to Colne, made clear his personal commitment to its reopening, provided the business case is made.

Since the 12-mile line was closed in 1970 there has been a growing campaign to re-instate it spearheaded by SELRAP.

The news was welcomed by Pendle MP Andrew Stephenson, Colne Liberal Democrat Lord Tony Greaves and Transport for the North board member Cllr Phil Riley, Blackburn with Darwen regeneration boss.

Mr Grayling said: "The initial study has established that it is technically feasible to re-open the route.

"This is the next stage to look at whether the demand for freight is enough to make it viable.

"The value of re-opening the line to passengers is a given but we need to see if enough freight would use it to justify it.

"I am personally committed to re-opening the Colne to Skipton line as an alternative route across the Pennines for freight traffic but that does not mean it will happen. The business case needs to be made.

"If it is the Department for Transport would provide the £400m needed for the scheme which would include improvements to the East Lancashire line from Preston through Accrington and Blackburn, possibly including doubling tracking the section from Burnley to Colne.

"If the case is made, work on re-opening the line would start in the early to mid-2020s."

Mr Stephenson said: "I am delighted the transport secretary has agreed that re-opening this line would be beneficial and has commissioned more work to explore its benefits. This is good news for the whole of East Lancashire."

Cllr Riley said: "This is great news. Re-opening would benefit all of East Lancashire."

Lord Greaves said: "This is good news."

Mr Grayling will also discuss reviving plans for a Colne bypass with Pendle Council leaders on his visit.

He ruled out early consideration of extending the M65 from the town across the Pennines.

Skipton MP Julian Smith MP said: "I am delighted that Chris Grayling has again today committed the Government to continued work on the Colne-Skipton re-opening and improvements to the East Lancashire line, which is what many local campaigners have long been calling for.

"If the scheme is able to proceed, it will provide a huge boost to businesses in Skipton and Ripon, and be a real demonstration of how this Government is backing local businesses by improving vital infrastructure across the North of England.

"I hope that we can now proceed quickly with the next steps, so that the benefits of this project can be realised as soon as possible. Many congratulations must also go to all those who have got the campaign to this stage."

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The cost does seem considerably higher than (IIRC) the costs suggested by the earlier SELRAP (can't recall exactly what that acronym stands for) campaign. At that cost I'd expect it includes significant use of double track or loops, including the existing Rose Grove to Colne "long siding". At that price I'd also hope that there's allowance for at least an hourly passenger service as far as Skipton with reliable connections to Leeds services.

Crossing the throat at Leeds will be a significant issue, a flyover looks do-able but would be expensive. NR/DfT may be reluctant to spend significant sums on freight infrastructure projects after that flyover between Doncaster and York (don't recall the name of the location) was rendered largely obsolete by the drop in coal traffic.

 

[Killingworth]

And from the Lancashire Telegraph,Re-opening Colne-Skipton rail link on amber says minister; https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co....lne-skipton-rail-link-on-amber-says-minister/

TRANSPORT secretary Chris Grayling will today signal that re-opening the Colne to Skipton rail link by 2025 has moved a significant step closer.

He will confirm the £400million project to extend the East Lancashire Line across the Pennines has been found 'technically possible' by an initial study.

The Cabinet minister will announce a second stage investigation into whether the demand for freight traffic on the route would make it commercially feasible.

Mr Grayling, speaking exclusively to the Lancashire Telegraph before a visit to Colne, made clear his personal commitment to its reopening, provided the business case is made.

Since the 12-mile line was closed in 1970 there has been a growing campaign to re-instate it spearhead by SELRAP.

The news was welcomed by Pendle MP Andrew Stephenson, Colne Liberal Democrat Lord Tony Greaves and Transport for the North board member Cllr Phil Riley, Blackburn with Darwen regeneration boss.

Mr Grayling said: "The initial study has established that it is technically feasible to re-open the route.

"This is the next stage to look at whether the demand for freight is enough to make it viable.

"The value of re-opening the line to passengers is a given but we need to see if enough freight would use it to justify it.

"I am personally committed to re-opening the Colne to Skipton line as an alternative route across the Pennines for freight traffic but that does not mean it will happen. The business case needs to be made.

"If it is the Department for Transport would provide the £400m needed for the scheme which would include improvements to the East Lancashire line from Preston through Accrington and Blackburn, possibly including doubling tracking the section from Burnley to Colne.

"If the case is made, work on re-opening the line would start in the early to mid-2020s."

Mr Stephenson said: "I am delighted the transport secretary has agreed that re-opening this line would be beneficial and has commissioned more work to explore its benefits. This is good news for the whole of East Lancashire."

Cllr Riley said: "This is great news. Re-opening would benefit all of East Lancashire."

Lord Greaves said: "This is good news."

Mr Grayling will also discuss reviving plans for a Colne bypass with Pendle Council leaders on his visit.

He ruled out early consideration of the M65 from the town across the Pennines.

25 comments

 

[Deerfold]

The business case needs to be made according to that quote.

Was the report that apparently clearly made the case ever published?

 

[thejuggler]

How much was someone paid to say it is 'technically possible' to re-lay new railway onto an existing track bed where the track bed is largely in place? A quick look at Google Earth is all it takes.

I still can't see it happening. Having a decent road route from Crosshills to M65 is far easier to justify in business case terms.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I like that. The first report says "We can have a railway where we have had one before". We now need to check whether anyone would actually use it if we built it and would pay for it...

 

[PR1Berske]

Any stations opening along the route? Because it being just one line with no new stations seems a "choice".

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How much was someone paid to say it is 'technically possible' to re-lay new railway onto an existing track bed where the track bed is largely in place? A quick look at Google Earth is all it takes.

I still can't see it happening. Having a decent road route from Crosshills to M65 is far easier to justify in business case terms.

Mentioned before , but this route was walked (at very low cost by the way) , using professional engineering stack for the ATOC sponsored "Connecting Communities" study and the view was that a large part of the route would have to be on a new alignement to meet modern clearance etc studies.

However , studies keep middle class consultants in work.

Other people I know have firm views on previous "freight" infrastructure upgrades for power station flows of coal that were either short term , or non-existant- let alone timetabling biomass flows across this complex pattern of other services north of Leeds......

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As it's a railway project, shouldn't it be "on yellow" rather than amber?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As it's a railway project, shouldn't it be "on yellow" rather than amber?

A single yellow can of course precede a red (signal) , - or a buffer stop.

 

[philthetube]

I bet our friend, Mr.Grayling didn't trave lo Colne by train

 

[The Lad]

If the scheme is able to proceed, it will provide a huge boost to businesses in Skipton and Ripon, and be a real demonstration of how this Government is backing local businesses by improving vital infrastructure across the North of England.

What is it going to do for Ripon?

We seem good at studies, not so good at action

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now we are in 2019, how well is the route between Colne and Skipton (not forgetting the Barnoldswick area) currently served by bus services?

 

[30907]

Now we are in 2019, how well is the route between Colne and Skipton (not forgetting the Barnoldswick area) currently served by bus services?

I haven't done a detailed check but a quick look at Googlemaps says:
X43 Manchester-Colne-Barnoldswick-Skipton
M1 Burnley-Earby-Barnoldswick
both half hourly weekday daytime, less frequently evenings.
X80/180/280 Preston-Clitheroe-Barnoldswick-Skipton about 2 hourly IIRC.

Loading on Offpeak journeys at the Skipton end are very light IME.

Note that the biggest town between Skipton and Colne is off the rail route.

 

[Deerfold]

I haven't done a detailed check but a quick look at Googlemaps says:
X43 Manchester-Colne-Barnoldswick-Skipton
M1 Burnley-Earby-Barnoldswick
both half hourly weekday daytime, less frequently evenings.
X80/180/280 Preston-Clitheroe-Barnoldswick-Skipton about 2 hourly IIRC.

Loading on Offpeak journeys at the Skipton end are very light IME.

Note that the biggest town between Skipton and Colne is off the rail route.

The last bus on the X43 from Burnley is 1830 (1820 Sundays).
The M1 runs much later - but with 2 hour gaps in the evenings.
The X80 and 180 are no more. The last 280 from Barnoldswick to Skipton is at 1635 (1515 from Preston). There is now no Winter Sunday route. There were 3 each Sunday over Summer 2018.
Barnoldswick - Skipton services are faster than a few years ago but with half the service level and almost no evening service any more.
Transdev do seem to have developed the X43 on a Sunday quite well.

The X43 and 280 serve Skipton Rail station, except at school start and end times, when they avoid it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So , reinstating all these services , maybe even adding Sunday services - even if they were totally free to the user , might be an option.

(supports a view that many local authorties - all over the UK - do not , cannot support buses due to austerity cuts - so handy to transfer mobility issues to the Nationally funded railway service providers) *

Someone I am sure , can run a simple balance sheet , on opex - never mind the capex in rebuilding a railway line)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Note that the biggest town between Skipton and Colne is off the rail route.

For general interest, Barnoldswick was served by a 1 mile 64 chain branch line from Earby originally opened by the Barnoldswick Railway on 8th February 1871, which was taken over by the Midland Railway just before the end of the nineteenth century, and was officially closed on 27th September 1965.

 

[Ianno87]

If the scheme is able to proceed, it will provide a huge boost to businesses in Skipton and Ripon, and be a real demonstration of how this Government is backing local businesses by improving vital infrastructure across the North of England.

What is it going to do for Ripon?

We seem good at studies, not so good at action

No doubt it would be hugely beneficial to Skipton and Ripon.... but in all likelihood to the net cost of the rest of the country in the capital investment needed. Sorry to be so blunt.

[I've said before, I'd *love* this scheme to have an economic case. But I don't think it is likely to even come close. Happy to be proven wrong (and I mean that)].

 

[xotGD]

If the scheme is able to proceed, it will provide a huge boost to businesses in Skipton and Ripon, and be a real demonstration of how this Government is backing local businesses by improving vital infrastructure across the North of England.

What is it going to do for Ripon?

We seem good at studies, not so good at action

Skipton and Ripon is the name of the parliamentary constituency. It's MP is Tory Chief Whip Julian Smith.

 

[PR1Berske]

I was once very much in support of the reopening of Skipton-Colne, but as I have explained on many threads, I had my mind changed by reading the arguments against, and now am very sceptical. I would much rather see money spent on the North than London (which always gets everything it wants, let's not forget) but Skipton-Colne seems to be a dubious use of much needed money I asked above about any new stations being opened between Colne and Skipton, I wonder just how the line could be justified without allowing people who live along it to catch a train.

 

[Deerfold]

No doubt it would be hugely beneficial to Skipton and Ripon.... but in all likelihood to the net cost of the rest of the country in the capital investment needed. Sorry to be so blunt.

[I've said before, I'd *love* this scheme to have an economic case. But I don't think it is likely to even come close. Happy to be proven wrong (and I mean that)].

I'd also love it to happen. But much of what I want could be achieved by extending the 1900 and 2100 ex-Manchester X43s from Burnley or Nelson to Skipton or putting on a later M4 than the current last at 2028 from Burnley to Keighley (although that's better than the 1830 we used to have as a last bus). For the rail line to be massively useful for me there would need to be a decent passenger frequency on it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I commend readers to study the press release carefully. It is always wise to read behind what is actually said. For example:

“He confirmed the £400million project to extend the East Lancashire Line across the Pennines has been found 'technically possible' by an initial study.”

Translation:
“Anything is possible within the laws of physics if you throw enough money at it, but we knew that”

and:

“It will cost at least £400m. SELRAP told us in their prospectus a few years ago that it was £100m-£150m. The business case then was barely positive, on ‘courageous’ operating cost and income assumptions. Oh dear.”

Then:

“This is the next stage to look at whether the demand for freight is enough to make it viable.”

Translation:
“passenger demand is insufficient to make the case for the line,”

Anyone find it odd that freight demand and benefits weren’t assessed, given that it is a key consideration for all rail enhancement business cases, and especially important for new lines? Particularly so for this route which is being promoted as another route across the Pennines for freight, and that Drax have been encouraged to be vocal in their support (see my previous posts upthread)?
So you can also read into the above sentence:

“we couldn’t find sufficient freight benefits in this study,” and,

“It’s now up to freight operators and freight end users to tell us how much it would be worth to them, and how much they would cough up accordingly”


“I am personally committed to re-opening the Colne to Skipton line as an alternative route across the Pennines for freight traffic but that does not mean it will happen”

Translation: “My personal commitment to this line counts for nothing when I leave this department”


"If the case is made, work on re-opening the line would start in the early to mid-2020s."

Translation: “there’s at least one, almost certainly two, general elections to go before any serious money could be spent. I’ll be long gone, and someone else can sort out how we don’t progress it” (Some readers may remember the former MP for Lewes, and the good news study for reopening another line, and what happened both to him and the study).


(Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the most recent study, have not seen it, and the above is purely my interpretation of the Minister’s statement. I’ll bet I’m right though, and the bet still stands...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colne-to-skipton-rail-project.40524/page-5#post-583223)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I commend readers to study the press release carefully. It is always wise to read behind what is actually said.


(Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the most recent study, have not seen it, and the above is purely my interpretation of the Minister’s statement. I’ll bet I’m right though, and the bet still stands...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colne-to-skipton-rail-project.40524/page-5#post-583223)

I wont take you up on the bet even if you gave me 4:1 odds

 

[yorksrob]

It would be nice to see, but this is England and I've no hope of anything good ever happening.

 

[Grumpy]

I bet our friend, Mr.Grayling didn't trave lo Colne by train

Not many people do. There was 1 passenger on the 12.11 departure today (cl 142 Pacer) and 4 cars in the car park.
I suspect the Juggler's suggestion in post 202 is more representative of what the public would prefer. Get stuck behind a slow moving vehicle between Colne and Cross Hills and there's hardly anywhere to overtake. Best way to spend money in that part of the world would be to replace the Cross Hills level crossing with a bridge and railway station, together with a Cross Hills/Glusburn North-West by-pass

 

[Francis]

It's astonishing that Epsom and Ewell Man MP found his way so far north as Colne. No doubt he's hurried back to leafy Surrey, traumatized by the experience.

 

[yorksrob]

Not many people do. There was 1 passenger on the 12.11 departure today (cl 142 Pacer) and 4 cars in the car park.
I suspect the Juggler's suggestion in post 202 is more representative of what the public would prefer. Get stuck behind a slow moving vehicle between Colne and Cross Hills and there's hardly anywhere to overtake. Best way to spend money in that part of the world would be to replace the Cross Hills level crossing with a bridge and railway station, together with a Cross Hills/Glusburn North-West by-pass

Given the state of the train service this past year, I don't think you could describe todays usage as a fair representation of the usage a functioning train service could attract.