Is needing a ticket before travel obvious?

[Harpers Tate]

I've made this observation before.

I have no issue, in principle, with buy-before-you-board, else "penalty" (of some sort). Where I take issue is where such a rule is applied without FIRST making more than adequate provision for customers to do what is required of them. That means redundancy of ticket issuing such that there are never excessive queue times. It means that where access to any given platform can be made directly, it is not sufficient to expect a customer to visit a more distant platform or location away from their entrance and then return where crossing tracks by bridge or (worse) level crossing) is needed. And so on. Take away all the reasnable excuses and then (and only then) start penalising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've made this observation before.

I have no issue, in principle, with buy-before-you-board, else "penalty" (of some sort). Where I take issue is where such a rule is applied without FIRST making more than adequate provision for customers to do what is required of them. That means redundancy of ticket issuing such that there are never excessive queue times. It means that where access to any given platform can be made directly, it is not sufficient to expect a customer to visit a more distant platform or location away from their entrance and then return where crossing tracks by bridge or (worse) level crossing) is needed. And so on. Take away all the reasnable excuses and then (and only then) start penalising.

Will we reach the point soon where the ubiquity of mobile devices solves that in the user's pocket?

 

[anme]

Will we reach the point soon where the ubiquity of mobile devices solves that in the user's pocket?

I have bought a ticket on my smart phone while queuing up to use a ticket machine. If I hadn't been able to do this, I would have missed the train! This wasn't in the UK, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have bought a ticket on my smart phone while queuing up to use a ticket machine. If I hadn't been able to do this, I would have missed the train! This wasn't in the UK, though.

The UK apps are still too cack-handed and the TOCs still attempt to use them to erode passenger rights.

Solve that, like they have in other countries, and I'm sold.

 

[mallard]

Will we reach the point soon where the ubiquity of mobile devices solves that in the user's pocket?

Considering that TOC "m-ticket" apps already insist on having GPS permissions to track your every move (presumably to ensure that you do in fact catch the train you said you would; of course they still "mistakenly" come up with a different itinerary when you submit a DR claim) and erode passengers' rights quite severely (nobody can guarantee the operation of a consumer smartphone and its associated software to a degree that would make me comfortable trusting my criminal record and substantial chunks of my bank balance to them; there needs to be at the very least an update to the byelaws such that passengers are not liable when the app or its associated infrastructure fails), making them compulsory is never something I'd support.

 

[najaB]

Considering that TOC "m-ticket" apps already insist on having GPS permissions to track your every move...

In my experience they work perfectly fine without granting the location permission.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You're answering a different question "Is it obvious how to pay for your ticket?" - I agree that it isn't always.

The question being asked is "Is it obvious that you should pay for a ticket before travelling?"

If it is not obvious how to pay for your ticket, then surely that directly means it isn't obviously that you should pay for one (if you can't see any obvious way to pay, then the usual assumption is that you don't have to!).

Will we reach the point soon where the ubiquity of mobile devices solves that in the user's pocket?

So I'd have yet another reason to worry about my phone losing battery?
Or yet another app that I have to rely on not having any bugs to mess me up?
Or yet more restrictions that paper based tickets don't have?
No thanks!

Mobile based tickets should be optional, not mandatory. Someone should not be at a disadvantage because they can't or don't want to use that option.

 

[najaB]

If it is not obvious how to pay for your ticket, then surely that directly means it isn't obviously that you should pay for one (if you can't see any obvious way to pay, then the usual assumption is that you don't have to!).

No. That logic doesn't follow. I used public transport in both Sao Paulo and Paris recently. It was obvious that I had to pay, even though it wasn't (immediately) obvious where and how to pay in either case. I didn't just assume that I didn't have to pay, instead I looked around for the ticket office/machine.

But in that comment you've probably come closer to the nub of the matter than anyone else - I was raised to expect to pay for services, and I go out of my way to try and pay. Many people these days take the attitude that it's the service provider's responsibility to make them pay, and that the service is free otherwise.

Horses for courses I guess.

 

[WelshBluebird]

No. That logic doesn't follow. I used public transport in both Sao Paulo and Paris recently. It was obvious that I had to pay, even though it wasn't (immediately) obvious where and how to pay in either case. I didn't just assume that I didn't have to pay, instead I looked around for the ticket office/machine.

But in that comment you've probably come closer to the nub of the matter than anyone else - I was raised to expect to pay for services, and I go out of my way to try and pay. Many people these days take the attitude that it's the service provider's responsibility to make them pay, and that the service is free otherwise.

Horses for courses I guess.

I was raised in an area where there were literally zero ways to pay for a rail ticket before boarding the rain. None. You could look as hard as you liked but there was nothing.
That probably explains our differences rather than your assumption that I think the service is free.

But to actually tackle your point, I take it that you expect passengers to conduct a search of the entire station? How long should people give to that?
What if they arrive on the platform, there are no ticketing facilities on that platform, they have had a look and NRE says there are no ticketing facilities at the station, and from where they are on the platform they cannot see the TVM that is hidden in a corner on the platform opposite that is only accessible by exiting the station and walking along a public road / pavement. In that situation how on earth can you expect someone to know they need to buy a ticket before boarding when as far as they are concerned there no ticketing facilities!

ToC's would get a lot more sympathy from myself and others if they:

• Made it obvious where TVM's are with signage
• Made sure NRE and other websites are actually up to date
• Make sure TVM's are actually in use (the one at my local station was out of order for 2 weeks over the last month).

And that is before you get into TVM's not issuing all fares, or being useless when it comes to offering time restricted fares at certain times of the day, or not accepting cash, or being difficult to use, or them being misleading, etc etc.

 

[najaB]

That probably explains our differences rather than your assumption that I think the service is free.

I never said that you personally hold that view, I apologise if you think that I was directing that comment at you specifically.

But to actually tackle your point, I take it that you expect passengers to conduct a search of the entire station? How long should people give to that?

Again, the question that was being asked was "Is it obvious that you should get your ticket before travel" not "Is it obvious how to obtain a ticket" - these are completely different questions.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I never said that you personally hold that view, I apologise if you think that I was directing that comment at you specifically.
Again, the question that was being asked was "Is it obvious that you need a ticket to travel" not "Is it obvious how to obtain a ticket" - these are completely different questions.

I don't see how you can separate the question like that though.
If the NRE website says there are no ticketing facilities, there is no obvious signage about ticketing facilities at the station, the platform you are currently on has no ticketing facilities, and you cannot see any ticketing facilities on the platform opposite from where you are, then the logical conclusion is that there is no way to purchase a ticket before boarding and thus you pay on the train.

If there was no history of buying a ticket whilst on board for many of our railway lines, then I would agree with you. But you cannot ignore that history.
It has always been if you cannot buy a ticket prior to boarding then you are allowed to board without one and buy when you first are able to (be it from the guard, or at the excess fares desk at the destination etc), and it still is that.

If there is no way to buy a ticket before boarding, then you most certainly can board first! So surely if there is no obvious way of buying a a ticket before boarding, the assumption is that you can board first!
There certainly is not an expectation that a passenger searches every inch of every station!

 

[najaB]

I don't see how you can separate the question like that though.

Okay, to rephrase the question: "Do you expect to be able to pay for your ticket before boarding the train?"

 

[WelshBluebird]

Okay, to rephrase the question: "Do you expect to be able to pay for your ticket before boarding the train?"

I suspect many people's answer to that will simply depend on where they grew up / where they are used to using trains!
Ask me that 12 years ago before I moved away from the South Wales valleys and I would have no not at all.
Ask me that now, having used the railways up and down the country and my answer is it depends!

At a manned station - yes 100% of the time.
At an unmanned station where there are multiple TVM's - yes as long as they are in working order and the ticket required is offered by the machines.
At an unmanned station where there is just one TVM that is obvious / I have been to before so know where the TVM is - yes as long as it is in working order and the ticket required is offered by the machine.
At an unmanned station I have never been to before where there is no obvious TVM - probably not but I will still have a look in any place that makes sense (e.g. the entrance to the station I used, along the platform I am on and anywhere I may pass).
At an unmanned station I have never been to before where there is no obvious TVM and NRE says there are no ticketing facilities - no 100% of the time.

 

[najaB]

Ask me that 12 years ago before I moved away from the South Wales valleys and I would have no not at all.
Ask me that now, having used the railways up and down the country and my answer is it depends!

Okay, so given the "It depends" answer - what is your default action on arriving at a station that you've not visited before if you don't have a ticket? Do you do a quick check to see if there is somewhere to pay before deciding that it's okay to board, or is your default response "There's no clear, unavoidable, unmissable indication of where and how to pay for a ticket therefore I don't have to pay for a ticket even though it's 20 minutes before my train is due"?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Okay, so given the "It depends" answer - what is your default action on arriving at a station that you've not visited before if you don't have a ticket? Do you do a quick check to see if there is somewhere to pay before deciding that it's okay to board, or is your default response "There's no clear, unavoidable, unmissable indication of where and how to pay for a ticket therefore I don't have to pay for a ticket even though it's 20 minutes before my train is due"?

Nobody is going to spend 20 minutes trying to find a TVM that may not even exist if that is what you are trying to ask!

 

[NSB2017]

I’d like to think if people had to go to a station they had never been to, they’d find out how to obtain a ticket first. Although I accept that’s wishful thinking.

 

[cuccir]

I’d like to think if people had to go to a station they had never been to, they’d find out how to obtain a ticket first. Although I accept that’s wishful thinking.

But that requires a relatively high level of internet literacy; first you need to know that the information is there at all; then you need to know how to find it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

For me, in the unusual situation I don't already have a ticket upon arrival at the station, then if I'm unfamiliar with the station I'll just look up the ticketing facilities on NRE. If it says there's nothing, or I can't see the facilities it references, I'm not going to hunt down a machine that may or may not exist. Obviously, if the machines (or ticket office) are in an obvious location then there is no need to consult NRE.

We could really do with having a Scotrail-style sign (for smaller stations, where it's not obvious whether there are purchasing facilities), which either says "Please use the [ticket machine/office] to buy your ticket. If your required ticket or payment method is not available, please buy your ticket from the conductor on-board or, if this is not possible, at your interchange or destination station", or alternatively "There are no ticketing facilities at this station. Please buy your ticket from the conductor on-board or, if this is not possible, at your interchange destination station."

 

[najaB]

Nobody is going to spend 20 minutes trying to find a TVM that may not even exist if that is what you are trying to ask!

No, it isn't. If you read what I wrote, what I asked is if you would have a quick look around, given that you've got plenty of time before your train arrives.

 

[Bantamzen]

But that requires a relatively high level of internet literacy; first you need to know that the information is there at all; then you need to know how to find it.

Maybe twenty years ago, but the most popular search engines are more than intuitive enough to return meaningful with even the vaguest of search parameters. Heck many will even search by voice command, so getting information such as does someone need a ticket really isn't going to be much of a mystery these days. Over 90% of the UK's population is now estimated to be connected online, so not too many people will be left without direct or secondary access to the net. And for those that remain there is still the telephone, local ticket office, even local information sources like drop in centres.

 

[yorkie]

Are we talking about "experienced rail travellers" or the "average passenger"?
I can imagine less than 1% of people travelling by rail care what percentage of revenue goes to which company.
And Grand Central is the only operator with a buy-on-board policy so yes, this is one obvious and large exception to the rule.

True most people probably don't make a conscious effort to buy the ticket from the same company they are travelling with.

But both GC and Hull Trains make it very clear you can buy on board. Hull Trains had audible and visible announcements encouraging passengers to do this at King's Cross last Saturday.

But among regulars, there will be more paying on board as they know you can do this. I remember a conversation between a regular business passenger and on board staff on a GNER train; the customer frequently travelled from York to London on Anytime tickets and knew many of the staff; they were keen for Guards to get the commission rather than the company.

I believe many Guards on the ECML are particularly keen to work early morning trains to London because of the commission from people wanting to buy expensive tickets.

If the NRE website says there are no ticketing facilities, there is no obvious signage about ticketing facilities at the station, the platform you are currently on has no ticketing facilities, and you cannot see any ticketing facilities on the platform opposite from where you are, then the logical conclusion is that there is no way to purchase a ticket before boarding and thus you pay on the train....

Absolutely, but not everyone applies sensible logic

 

[najaB]

Absolutely, but not everyone applies sensible logic

It's quite simple to separate the questions. Some people pay before traveling only when forced to, others when they can. The question is which is the default.

Simple really.

 

[sheff1]

So I would expect most people thinking of using the railway network for the first time (assuming that nobody they knew had any experience) & with access to the net would head for this to see what the deal was.

In these parts, asking someone who had experience of local rail travel would probably get the answer - "just get on and buy your ticket from the guard" as that has been the custom and practice for the last 30 years and more.

>>>>>>>>>

On the signage etc front - at Wakefield Kirkgate there is now a TVM (although NRE states otherwise) and Northern state it is a PF station, but last time I was there the prominent full width sign above the only entrance stating "please buy your ticket on the train" was still in place.

 

[Llanigraham]

All the TfW stations I have been on lately, there have been broadcasts stating "Buy before you travel", there have been prominent notices at the entrances to the stations, the rolling display on some of them has said the same thing, plus there have been notices in some of the trains, and I'm sure I have seen adverts in the local press.

And the ticket machines seem to have been sighted in obvious and prominent positions.

 

[Bantamzen]

In these parts, asking someone who had experience of local rail travel would probably get the answer - "just get on and buy your ticket from the guard" as that has been the custom and practice for the last 30 years and more.

>>>>>>>>>

As it happens around my area it used to be the case that you bought on the train, as very few of the stations had any ticket facilities. Now that they do, people generally understand that you need to get your ticket from the TVM.

On the signage etc front - at Wakefield Kirkgate there is now a TVM (although NRE states otherwise) and Northern state it is a PF station, but last time I was there the prominent full width sign above the only entrance stating "please buy your ticket on the train" was still in place.

This has been mentioned before, although as far as I can see nobody has confirmed that this sign is still present. However if it is it obviously needs removing, so has anyone contacted Northern about this?

 

[WelshBluebird]

No, it isn't. If you read what I wrote, what I asked is if you would have a quick look around, given that you've got plenty of time before your train arrives.

A quick look around - absolutely. But a quick look around will not help you find the TVM's at some stations!

Maybe twenty years ago, but the most popular search engines are more than intuitive enough to return meaningful with even the vaguest of search parameters. Heck many will even search by voice command, so getting information such as does someone need a ticket really isn't going to be much of a mystery these days. Over 90% of the UK's population is now estimated to be connected online, so not too many people will be left without direct or secondary access to the net. And for those that remain there is still the telephone, local ticket office, even local information sources like drop in centres.

Would be great if those sources of information were actually correct and up to date.
For example it took a little bit of time for the TVM at Keynsham to be added to the NRE page for the station. Considering its positioning (you can't see it from most of the opposite platform, and it is easy to miss the limited signage pointing you to where it is), I'd say that is a problem!

All the TfW stations I have been on lately, there have been broadcasts stating "Buy before you travel", there have been prominent notices at the entrances to the stations, the rolling display on some of them has said the same thing, plus there have been notices in some of the trains, and I'm sure I have seen adverts in the local press.

My only problem is that they have also had those posters and audio announcements at stations where there are no facilities too. Though I can't comment if that is still the case (as it was just at one station several months ago when it was under ATW), it does make it needlessly confusing!

 

[Bantamzen]

Would be great if those sources of information were actually correct and up to date.
For example it took a little bit of time for the TVM at Keynsham to be added to the NRE page for the station. Considering its positioning (you can't see it from most of the opposite platform, and it is easy to miss the limited signage pointing you to where it is), I'd say that is a problem!

And I would agree, the NRE pages do seem to be out of date in places. And as with any old signs instructing passengers to buy onboard, I would ask has anyone flagged it up with the site owners?

 

[swt_passenger]

...And as with any old signs instructing passengers to buy onboard, I would ask has anyone flagged it up with the site owners?

Not likely is it, as it removes what is potentially the best reason or excuse not to buy.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not likely is it, as it removes what is potentially the best reason or excuse not to buy.

This is possibly the case, but is it better to so in the interests of fellow passengers that might not be quite as clued up if they were to get challenged?

 

[najaB]

A quick look around - absolutely. But a quick look around will not help you find the TVM's at some stations!

Which is definitely a problem - and that's the question that @yorkie was answering:

No, it isn't. Try entering Garforth station from the north side of town, heading towards York.

Is there an obligation to carry out a sweep of all platforms in case there is a hidden TVM? I think that is unreasonable.