GN Class 717

[class387]

Any idea what units are on which diagrams today?

717007 on HE53, don't know the other one.

 

[Failed Unit]

Wifi is a must on all services those days,

A lot of subjective opinion as normal. Most of which we will never agree on. Still waiting to see you post some facts that the 7xx series are more reliable then the the 313s. Rather than saying that they will improve (but not when). I will note the 707s are not looking bad but the 700s continues to disappoint. The 700 must be the benchmark for the 717s as they are dual voltage.

For me reliablity and comfort are most important for me. I find the 7xx offer neither. Although I will respect the fact some people find them comfortable I don’t. The lack of grab rails is poor as an example.

However interested by your last point? Why? Most people I see are using mobile phones. They have 4G, which I also use on IC services for my laptop. Why must trains have WiFi? Surely a reliable train is more important than WiFi.

I once said I felt seat back tables are a must on all new trains. Something all passengers can use or take advantage of. The response was. “The 313s didn’t have them”. Wonder why things that people don’t need such as WiFi are viewed more important than things people do. Tables (fitted on regional railways and IC trains since the 1980s)

 

[daniel1234321]

Can confirm that 007 is on HE53 and 008 on HE51. Both just left Finsbury Park.

 

[daniel1234321]

On the 1725 Mog to Gdh, at Moorgate, the PIS said "welcome aboard this service to Welwyn Garden City" and about half the train got off, before the driver changed it to what route it was actually doing.

 

[LK717]

Oyster now up and running at HFN? I heard Mid March, then delayed until Early April (still says that on Tfl website)

Apparently it’s a “trial” but it’s been working since last week. My dad has also been using it everyday and hasn’t had any issues.
I used it on Friday and Sunday and it worked fine

 

[Failed Unit]

1800 is 008. Working CIS. Doesn’t show loadings or tfl info on this trip.

Not as crowded today.

Much more nicer journey than last week.

On another topic. Avoid Moorgate in the peak. 1 escalator is slow going.

 

[Aictos]

A lot of subjective opinion as normal. Most of which we will never agree on. Still waiting to see you post some facts that the 7xx series are more reliable then the the 313s. Rather than saying that they will improve (but not when). I will note the 707s are not looking bad but the 700s continues to disappoint. The 700 must be the benchmark for the 717s as they are dual voltage.

For me reliablity and comfort are most important for me. I find the 7xx offer neither. Although I will respect the fact some people find them comfortable I don’t. The lack of grab rails is poor as an example.

However interested by your last point? Why? Most people I see are using mobile phones. They have 4G, which I also use on IC services for my laptop. Why must trains have WiFi? Surely a reliable train is more important than WiFi.

A lot of subjective opinion as normal, yes I suppose so if we take your opinion that the Class 7XX are not reliability or comfortable. with nothing to offer as to replacing the Class 313 indeed I guess you would rather they last another 40 years regardless of their poor reliability?

As to the Class 700s if they were that bad WHY then at the National Rail Awards 2018 did Siemens pick up the Award for Train of the Year - Passenger for their Class 700 offering?

The Class 717s yes may well have less seating BUT the important thing which you and others neglect to say is the fact that overall they DO cater for more passengers over the Class 313s, click here for article

For example below are some figures from Paul Bigland

313s: Seated 462. Standing 384. Total 846.

717s: Seated 362. Standing 581. Total 943.

Now as to why the Class 717s are far superior to the old Class 313s:

• Air conditioning for improved comfort on-board

Again as I have stated before the heating on the Class 313s is knacked so this is very much welcomed.

• Connectivity with free Wi-Fi throughout* and power points at every pair of seats

I know most people enjoy 4G however there are some places where their mobile provider has blackspots so having a mobile
4G connection isn't helpful but also because for those who have low data allowances by using wifi where provided means
not running out of data ie those on PAYG unless you count Three of course but then again they have nowhere near the
coverage that EE has etc....

As to the power plugs, they are a bonus as I wouldn't expect them on a Metro train but there you go.

• Space for approximately 100 extra passengers per train, because passenger numbers on Great Northern have more than doubled in 16 years and this will give you more space

Be able to actually board the train in the first place is important so this extra space is important for current and future
growth.

• Wider doors, wide, open aisles and open, interconnected carriages (like a bendy bus) so that all passengers including those with accessibility needs can move easily throughout the entire train. The trains have been designed so that people can board and alight quickly, helping to keep trains running on time

Also means faster dwell times once people open up to the idea that there is more space onboard, they don't need to bunch
up by the doors - if you can explain why people prefer to do that then go ahead...

• Two-by-two seating instead of unpopular three-by-two seating

Just as well, the middle seat might well be used in the peaks but off peak I can't say I saw it in use ever!
Also means more space with the 2+2 seating inside the train.

• All trains are fixed at the maximum size of six carriages that can fit into platforms

It would be nice to have longer platforms for the GN Inners but sadly the NCL prevents this hence 6 coaches will be the
longest trains possible.

• Each train has the latest accessibility features; including more visible grab handles and wheelchair spaces with clear markings on the carriage exteriors

A increase of grab rails over the Class 313s is good and especially better with clearer markings for wheelchair users.

• Live updates from London Underground available inside the train so passengers can plan onwards journeys (except between Drayton Park & Moorgate)

This is useful to know for LUL connections especially at Finsbury Park.

I don't have access to any MTIN numbers for the simple reason that I don't buy railway magazines at all.

 

[Class315]

Another Carriage Working will be converted over to 717's from next week. - Details remain sketchy at present, but as I see which C/W, I'll post the timings if someone else doesn't do so before me.

 

[Glen M]

On the 1725 Mog to Gdh, at Moorgate, the PIS said "welcome aboard this service to Welwyn Garden City" and about half the train got off, before the driver changed it to what route it was actually doing.

Same thing happened last week, can't remember which day but a few people didn't seem too happy about it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Another Carriage Working will be converted over to 717's from next week. - Details remain sketchy at present, but as I see which C/W, I'll post the timings if someone else doesn't do so before me.

Is a service diagrammed as 3 car. I passed a 3 car set yesterday evening going south at Hornsey circa 1820

Not sure if it was short formed or diagrammed. Bet it was cosy heading North.

I see people mentioning it and likely to convert early. But didn’t know if it was actually diagramed or a regular to short form if problems happen.

 

[Glen M]

Is a service diagrammed as 3 car. I passed a 3 car set yesterday evening going south at Hornsey circa 1820

Not sure if it was short formed or diagrammed. Bet it was cosy heading North.

I see people mentioning it and likely to convert early. But didn’t know if it was actually diagramed or a regular to short form if problems happen.

How often do single unit 313's still operate? Haven't seen / been on one in years and I use the line daily

 

[jon0844]

How often do single unit 313's still operate? Haven't seen / been on one in years and I use the line daily

One of the very early WGC departures is 3 car, but then seems to go up and down the Hertford Loop until it returns very late at WGC. Actually may not be the same unit, having gone into Hornsey for the day.

They were rare, but were becoming more common on the Hertford Loop as trains failed. The 717s will sort this.

 

[387star]

Does the PIS make the pointless ' change here for other national rail services' announcement?
On a 700 often the announcer breaks up or cuts out or plays at different intervals depending on coach

 

[Failed Unit]

How often do single unit 313's still operate? Haven't seen / been on one in years and I use the line daily

I had one once between Moorgate and WGC in last few months. But this was down to a set failure. I am not sure. Just may have misunderstood some of the posts on this thread but I think a single diagram may exist. Haven’t seen one on a weekday myself for ages until yesterday.

 

[Failed Unit]

Does the PIS make the pointless ' change here for other national rail services' announcement?
On a 700 often the announcer breaks up or cuts out or plays at different intervals depending on coach

Yes. Along with alight here for Hatfield house etc..

 

[387star]

Yes. Along with alight here for Hatfield house etc..

I should know what Hatfield House is lol

On a 700 the announcement at Horsham advising to change for Dorking etc is optimistic at 00:00

 

[Class315]

Is a service diagrammed as 3 car. I passed a 3 car set yesterday evening going south at Hornsey circa 1820

Not sure if it was short formed or diagrammed. Bet it was cosy heading North.

I see people mentioning it and likely to convert early. But didn’t know if it was actually diagramed or a regular to short form if problems happen.

Yes it’s diagrammed in the morning peak, then spends the day in hornsey before coming out and starting service at Finsbury Park into Moorgate - 16:20 Stevenage via Hertford North, 17:30 Moorgate Via Hertford
18:45 Welwyn Garden city, where it stables in the yard to work the 06:24 into moorgate the following morning.

By putting my speculation hat on, I’m under the impression the company will convert Carriage workings which start and finish at Hornsey.

It’s a shame they can’t bolster that 3 car diagram but prior to the 717’s there haven’t been enough 313’s

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes it’s diagrammed in the morning peak, then spends the day in hornsey before coming out and starting service at Finsbury Park into Moorgate - 16:20 Stevenage via Hertford North, 17:30 Moorgate Via Hertford
18:45 Welwyn Garden city, where it stables in the yard to work the 06:24 into moorgate the following morning.

By putting my speculation hat on, I’m under the impression the company will convert Carriage workings which start and finish at Hornsey.

It’s a shame they can’t bolster that 3 car diagram but prior to the 717’s there haven’t been enough 313’s

Thanks. I suspect that was the one I passed yesterday. It was possible I was on the 1845 Moorgate to WGC when I thought it was short formed. Cosy

I guess as other diagrams change to 717s a 313 could strengthen it as well.

 

[Class315]

Thanks. I suspect that was the one I passed yesterday. It was possible I was on the 1845 Moorgate to WGC when I thought it was short formed. Cosy

I guess as other diagrams change to 717s a 313 could strengthen it as well.

Yes, it must of been. There weren’t any failures or short forms. - Besides from Ambulance services dealing with an incident at Brookmans Park & a Trespass incident in the Gordon Hill area.

I would be very surprised if any changes are implemented to that 1 x 313 Carriage working before May, as it’s got less miles covered on it than last year where it remained out for the whole day. But in my personal opinion, as per my last post I agree it should be bolstered up.

 

[physics34]

I should know what Hatfield House is lol

On a 700 the announcement at Horsham advising to change for Dorking etc is optimistic at 00:00

Its little things like that make the outfit seem so unprofessional

 

[Skimpot flyer]

For me reliablity and comfort are most important for me. I find the 7xx offer neither. Although I will respect the fact some people find them comfortable I don’t. The lack of grab rails is poor as an example.

train is more important than WiFi.

I once said I felt seat back tables are a must on all new trains. Something all passengers can use or take advantage of. The response was. “The 313s didn’t have them”. Wonder why things that people don’t need such as WiFi are viewed more important than things people do. Tables (fitted on regional railways and IC trains since the 1980s)

Is it that the 700s are inherently unreliable, or is it the timetable, since trains started going through the core, that is unreliable? If these same services were still able to be operated using other stock, wouldn’t delays south of the river still impact on post-core GN services, irregardless of rolling stock?

 

[Failed Unit]

Is it that the 700s are inherently unreliable, or is it the timetable, since trains started going through the core, that is unreliable? If these same services were still able to be operated using other stock, wouldn’t delays south of the river still impact on post-core GN services, irregardless of rolling stock?

The trains. Managing about 14k minutes per technical incident. But at least they are improving very slowly.

The core doesn’t help but the higher failure rate of the trains compared to the 365 / 321 / 317s they replaced is noticeable.

 

[jon0844]

The trains. Managing about 14k minutes per technical incident. But at least they are improving very slowly.

The core doesn’t help but the higher failure rate of the trains compared to the 365 / 321 / 317s they replaced is noticeable.

I still think a lot of problems with the 700s have been down to issues with the doors and other factors that can be attributed to the driver and not the train itself. Once a new driver gets used to the foibles (as TL drivers did) then things improve drastically.

How long since the doors didn't open (even leaving to train failures) at WGC in a morning, which turned out to be the signaller not setting up the service properly so the driver can't set up the radio, and consequently can't (easily) operate the doors?

 

[Failed Unit]

I still think a lot of problems with the 700s have been down to issues with the doors and other factors that can be attributed to the driver and not the train itself. Once a new driver gets used to the foibles (as TL drivers did) then things improve drastically.

How long since the doors didn't open (even leaving to train failures) at WGC in a morning, which turned out to be the signaller not setting up the service properly so the driver can't set up the radio, and consequently can't (easily) operate the doors?

Things are better at WGC but I find it hard to believe this is all the drivers fault. If it was Siemens and GTR would be shouting this from the roof-tops to ensure mud didn’t stick to the train. That recent failure in the core sounded to me train rather than driver related where it took 30 mins to move the train.

Still get at lot of failures on route, ones at Welwyn North are particularly noticeable for obvious reasons.

But very scary with the 717s if the drivers not knowing the trains will cause a total service collapse. Glad they are introducing them slowly. I do appreciate the 313s are simple beasts. I doubt they can do much that a driver hasn’t seen before.

 

[Verulamius]

I think that it is 14k miles per technical incident. Given each 700 would do about 700 miles a day (say Bedford to Brighton and back x3) this would result in a technical incident per train on average every 20 days, or once every 3 weeks.

Is this right?

 

[jon0844]

Things are better at WGC but I find it hard to believe this is all the drivers fault. If it was Siemens and GTR would be shouting this from the roof-tops to ensure mud didn’t stick to the train. That recent failure in the core sounded to me train rather than driver related where it took 30 mins to move the train.

Still get at lot of failures on route, ones at Welwyn North are particularly noticeable for obvious reasons.

But very scary with the 717s if the drivers not knowing the trains will cause a total service collapse. Glad they are introducing them slowly. I do appreciate the 313s are simple beasts. I doubt they can do much that a driver hasn’t seen before.

I am not sure Siemens post much about things like that, or if anyone would read such a feed if there was a social media feed from one of their depots. Plus they may have a contract that says they aren't to publish such information directly.

At the end of a day, a failed or delayed train is a failed or delayed train.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am not sure Siemens post much about things like that, or if anyone would read such a feed if there was a social media feed from one of their depots. Plus they may have a contract that says they aren't to publish such information directly.

At the end of a day, a failed or delayed train is a failed or delayed train.

This is of course true. But surely it is in Siemen’s interest to contest these things as if it is always the drivers fault the train may have a more respectable MTIN figure. The current one is appalling and the allegation that it is all down to drivers incompetence (not my suggestion) they could have a 50k MTIN and be winning gold spammers.

It could cost them sales. But the alternatives are not covering themselves in glory and they are the best of a bad bunch.

I personally don’t think it is all the drivers fault. But that is just a GTR reason to shift the focus away from a poorly designed train.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think that it is 14k miles per technical incident. Given each 700 would do about 700 miles a day (say Bedford to Brighton and back x3) this would result in a technical incident per train on average every 20 days, or once every 3 weeks.

Is this right?

That is my understanding. So when you average out over the fleet a couple of trains should fail in service everyday - which is what we are seeing.

 

[jon0844]

This is of course true. But surely it is in Siemen’s interest to contest these things as if it is always the drivers fault the train may have a more respectable MTIN figure. The current one is appalling and the allegation that it is all down to drivers incompetence (not my suggestion) they could have a 50k MTIN and be winning gold spammers.

It could cost them sales. But the alternatives are not covering themselves in glory and they are the best of a bad bunch.

I personally don’t think it is all the drivers fault. But that is just a GTR reason to shift the focus away from a poorly designed train.

I wouldn't use the word incompetence when it comes to some new drivers having problems with the doors - it wasn't an attack on them whatsoever. It's that there are some issues and workarounds that a newly trained driver may not know, or be able to rectify quick enough to avoid delays. The drivers on the TL side have had 700s a lot longer and know the ways to fix. It's no different than any other method of fault finding, with or without the help of fleet engineers.

Subsequent driver briefings/training, software tweaks and the like will have reduced such instances and may well be a reason why the trains are now performing better.

I was on another 717 today (after the morning peak) and couldn't help but notice people smiling when boarding, with some taking a second or two to look around the train and clearly looking quite excited to be on a new train.

 

[bramling]

I had one once between Moorgate and WGC in last few months. But this was down to a set failure. I am not sure. Just may have misunderstood some of the posts on this thread but I think a single diagram may exist. Haven’t seen one on a weekday myself for ages until yesterday.

I haven’t been following things closely recently, however it was the case up until December that there was a single 313 diagram. I seem to remember that as per the diagrams associated with the timetable change this was indeed one of the first 717 diagrams which were supposed to have come in. As we all know, things didn’t quite turn out as planned...

Not sure of the latest as I haven’t really been following that closely!