ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[hexagon789]

To be honest, I can see the logic in a station like Glasgow QS - an HST (even a modern engine like an MTU) can create a lot of clag!

Granted, but with a 15mph blanket in the station, I wouldn't have thought you'd need more than Notch 2 or 3 anyway.

Pulling out of somewhere like Laurencekirk where the limit is 100 though...

 

[chuff chuff]

We were told the same regarding taking full within a station,notch four is plenty and doesn't take long to clear a platform.

 

[chuff chuff]

To be honest, I can see the logic in a station like Glasgow QS - an HST (even a modern engine like an MTU) can create a lot of clag!

I find the MTU's to be be pretty clean and certainly cleaner than some of the 158's.I can understand the the not taking full power within a station with the original engines they were horrible as much as to be unpleasant the MTU engines are much better in that regard.

 

[hexagon789]

Of course I'm forgetting, these are short-sets of course, so giving it laldy straightaway isn't really necessary as with a full-length set.

 

[jingsmonty]

Of course I'm forgetting, these are short-sets of course, so giving it laldy straightaway isn't really necessary as with a full-length set.

Yes, even notch 3 is probably just as quick (if not quicker) than a DMU. I sometimes find that when on notch 5, I'm sometimes having to notch back pretty quickly - they are very quick at accelerating!
Other considerations is that banging it into notch 5 quickly can induce wheelslip, if there's any sort of moisture (such as early morning mist, etc). Sometimes on a damp rail, you can build up speed quicker in notch 3/4.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, even notch 3 is probably just as quick (if not quicker) than a DMU. I sometimes find that when on notch 5, I'm sometimes having to notch back pretty quickly - they are very quick at accelerating!
Other considerations is that banging it into notch 5 quickly can induce wheelslip, if there's any sort of moisture (such as early morning mist, etc). Sometimes on a damp rail, you can build up speed quicker in notch 3/4.

And probably much smoother for the passengers; I remember you'd get a nasty kick from the rear power car when it's wet a lot of the time on longer ECML sets.

I imagine it also saves fuel, though you may have a DAS to tell you when to coast?

 

[chuff chuff]

I imagine it also saves fuel, though you may have a DAS to tell you when to coast?

Not up and running yet,I was told this time last year it would be by December.

 

[BRX]

with the original engines they were horrible as much as to be unpleasant the MTU engines are much better in that regard.

Nah. They were a lot more fun!

 

[hexagon789]

Not up and running yet,I was told this time last year it would be by December.

I wondered because I've seen them on the 156s on my line and thought that as GWR had them in their HSTs, the power cars might still be fitted with them but needing new route profiles loaded in.

 

[jingsmonty]

Nah. They were a lot more fun!

From a 'rail geek' point of view, I really liked (& miss) the sound of a Valenta - that 'scream' was pretty characterful & distinctive. I'd have loved to have driven one! But from a driver's point of view, the reliability & much more sophisticated control systems of an MTU is preferable! An MTU diagnostic is, basically a digital display box (called an MDEC) - not much for us to do there, wheras I think a Valenta was much more 'mechanical' - no electronic Common rail fuel injection, for instance. Probably more for a driver to learn & fault find on.

Incidentally, I once went of a Grand Central HST (in 2010, I think), just so I could hear a Valenta before they disappeared. They were the last operator to use them.. Yes, I am an HST geek...

 

[chuff chuff]

I wondered because I've seen them on the 156s on my line and thought that as GWR had them in their HSTs, the power cars might still be fitted with them but needing new route profiles loaded in.

They are there but seem to be at the bottom of the things needing done heap.

 

[BRX]

Incidentally, I once went of a Grand Central HST (in 2010, I think), just so I could hear a Valenta before they disappeared. They were the last operator to use them.. Yes, I am an HST geek...

Yes, I went on a couple of GC HSTs around then for the same reason. Nothing quite like the deafening sound of a Valenta taking off from a standstill...the soundtrack to much of my younger travelling life, including on the HML. When I was a kid, the sound of them setting off from Inverness signalled the start of a trip away somewhere.

As an Intercity 125 group member I hope one day we will be able to see and hear a pair of them in action again!

 

[jingsmonty]

Yes, I went on a couple of GC HSTs around then for the same reason. Nothing quite like the deafening sound of a Valenta taking off from a standstill...the soundtrack to much of my younger travelling life, including on the HML. When I was a kid, the sound of them setting off from Inverness signalled the start of a trip away somewhere.

As an Intercity 125 group member I hope one day we will be able to see and hear a pair of them in action again!

My thoughts exactly - I used to enjoy a trip on the Chieftain, even if it was just down to Perth. There was almost a sense of occasion to travelling on a' big' train. Stood on platform 1 at Inverness more than a few times & just about being deafened when the rear power car flew past (at notch 5, by the sound of it...). Incidentally, that used to be an Inverness driver, back in BR days. I'm a 125 group member as well, I had the pleasure of seeing (& hearing) the prototype power car at Bo'ness a few years ago. What a fantastic job they've done with it!

You can imagine how delighted when I heard that Scotrail were going for HSTs...& I'd get to actually drive these machines! I do get a bit of a kick out of it, I admit...

It just goes to show what a great design the HST was, where it's still a viable train after all these years. Given I'm about as old as the prototype

 

[43096]

The only technical reason for the rear power car providing ETS is that if it stops working you can switch to the leading power car on the move. You can't establish ETS at the rear remotely. Nothing to stop.a train running with ETS at the front.

Glad someone else said that! The answer to “incidental or by design” is incidental - it’s purely for the reason as scotraildriver has posted.

I do wonder how many people think HSTs have been running for the last 40 years with just the front power car providing traction!

 

[jingsmonty]

Glad someone else said that! The answer to “incidental or by design” is incidental - it’s purely for the reason as scotraildriver has posted.

I do wonder how many people think HSTs have been running for the last 40 years with just the front power car providing traction!

This may be incidental, but there's a lot of good design on an HST - one of my more experienced colleagues said it was built like a Vulcan bomber, hand built, with lots of redundant systems that you could bypass if you had an issue...

 

[anamyd]

Glad someone else said that! The answer to “incidental or by design” is incidental - it’s purely for the reason as scotraildriver has posted.

I do wonder how many people think HSTs have been running for the last 40 years with just the front power car providing traction!

The whole point of having the two power cars (as designed) was because one couldn't fully power the train to specs, even with a Valenta (at the time) in it - the most powerful engine they could find wasn't quite enough so they used two.

 

[scotraildriver]

Granted, but with a 15mph blanket in the station, I wouldn't have thought you'd need more than Notch 2 or 3 anyway.

Pulling out of somewhere like Laurencekirk where the limit is 100 though...

It's only 15mph on the way in. Leaving platform 2,3 or 4 you can open it right up and shoot out the station. 5,6 and 7 are restricted by the crossover in the tunnel. 1is 25mph as it's a tight bend.

 

[anamyd]

From a 'rail geek' point of view, I really liked (& miss) the sound of a Valenta - that 'scream' was pretty characterful & distinctive. I'd have loved to have driven one! But from a driver's point of view, the reliability & much more sophisticated control systems of an MTU is preferable! An MTU diagnostic is, basically a digital display box (called an MDEC) - not much for us to do there, wheras I think a Valenta was much more 'mechanical' - no electronic Common rail fuel injection, for instance. Probably more for a driver to learn & fault find on.

Incidentally, I once went of a Grand Central HST (in 2010, I think), just so I could hear a Valenta before they disappeared. They were the last operator to use them.. Yes, I am an HST geek...

Aside from the reduced emissions and noise with the MTUs, that last Grand Central Valenta was "done". Before it was MTU'd, drivers were apparently told to be gentle with the power controller.

 

[anamyd]

I find the MTU's to be be pretty clean and certainly cleaner than some of the 158's.I can understand the the not taking full power within a station with the original engines they were horrible as much as to be unpleasant the MTU engines are much better in that regard.

I've seen some really claggy MTUs; I think they do vary.

 

[dgl]

The whole point of having the two power cars (as designed) was because one couldn't fully power the train to specs, even with a Valenta (at the time) in it - the most powerful engine they could find wasn't quite enough so they used two.

plus, of course, if you had both power units in one locomotive then the axle load would be high, splitting it into two "power cars" alleviates that issue, meaning better route availability, less track wear and consequentially higher speeds allowed in some areas than standard locomotives.

 

[jingsmonty]

Aside from the reduced emissions and noise with the MTUs, that last Grand Central Valenta was "done". Before it was MTUd, drivers were apparently told to be gentle with the power controller.

I could believe that...

 

[anamyd]

plus, of course, if you had both power units in one locomotive then the axle load would be high, splitting it into two "power cars" alleviates that issue, meaning better route availability, less track wear and consequentially higher speeds allowed in some areas than standard locomotives.

yes good point

 

[jingsmonty]

plus, of course, if you had both power units in one locomotive then the axle load would be high, splitting it into two "power cars" alleviates that issue, meaning better route availability, less track wear and consequentially higher speeds allowed in some areas than standard locomotives.

If you watch the Channel 5 documentary on the 'InterCity 125', it makes exactly this point. A traditional diesel loco was just too heavy to go much above 100mph - bigger engine = more weight. A Deltic probably pushed the limits at the time, before HST was devised. Only other inspiration I can think of would be the Blue Pullman.

An HST is RA5 (same as a Class 37) which means (technically) it would be cleared to travel on the Far North, Kyle & West Highland lines! I believe the Network Rail 'flying banana' HST NMT has been up the WHL already..

Like I said, a truly great design...that's why it's still viable for Scotrail

 

[anamyd]

If you watch the Channel 5 documentary on the 'InterCity 125', it makes exactly this point. A traditional diesel loco was just too heavy to go much above 100mph - bigger engine = more weight. A Deltic probably pushed the limits at the time, before HST was devised. Only other inspiration I can think of would be the Blue Pullman.

An HST is RA5 (same as a Class 37) which means (technically) it would be cleared to travel on the Far North, Kyle & West Highland lines! I believe the Network Rail 'flying banana' HST NMT has been up the WHL already..

Like I said, a truly great design...that's why it's still viable for Scotrail

I actually watched the InterCity 125 programme but was just going from memory

 

[jingsmonty]

I actually watched the InterCity 125 programme but was just going from memory

It was pretty good, but, strangely, didn't mention the refurbishment for Scotrail, XC & GWR - would have made a fitting finale. 43 years old & still relevant Today.

Anyway, moving on - I hope we see some more HSTs on the go this week, Inverness has seen very few at all

 

[hexagon789]

It's only 15mph on the way in. Leaving platform 2,3 or 4 you can open it right up and shoot out the station. 5,6 and 7 are restricted by the crossover in the tunnel. 1is 25mph as it's a tight bend.

Is that since the 2016 upgrade?

And in that case is it 50mph straight out of 2, 3 and 4 then?

 

[MrBurnz]

I appreciate that this is slightly off topic, but, I am curious to know, are there any power cars left with valenta engines?...or have they all now been re-engined with MTU's?

 

[najaB]

I appreciate that this is slightly off topic, but, I am curious to know, are there any power cars left with valenta engines?...or have they all now been re-engined with MTU's?

Only 41001 AFAIK.

 

[hexagon789]

I appreciate that this is slightly off topic, but, I am curious to know, are there any power cars left with valenta engines?...or have they all now been re-engined with MTU's?

Just 41001 - the prototype power car owned by the 125Group.

All others are either MTU or Paxman VP185s.

 

[GrimShady]

The only technical reason for the rear power car providing ETS is that if it stops working you can switch to the leading power car on the move. You can't establish ETS at the rear remotely. Nothing to stop.a train running with ETS at the front.

Thanks for the info ScotRail driver. I had always believed it was due to surging when the rear pushes.