Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[supervc-10]

Yup- although plenty of cars with automatic gearboxes do have stop/start. I know Volkswagen group cars with the DSG gearboxes with stop/start have quite a good system. If you press hard on the brake pedal then the stop/start kills the engine, if you only press it hard enough to hold the car stationary, then the engine stays on. Works well. I've not driven any other vehicles with an automatic and stop/start so can't comment on other manufacturer's implementation.

 

[tsr]

At risk of going wildly off-topic...

Ah that's why my electric car leaves new fossil cars standing at the lights then!

That will probably be a different phenomenon, to do with the differences in power delivery and especially turbo lag (many smaller modern cars have turbos to aid relatively sluggish engines, most of which take time to kick in, with the alleged exception of a few Kia vehicles which are supposed to be much better).

That's probably because it's easy to do on a manual and you have enough time - you just stop if the car is taken out of gear, and restart when the clutch is pressed with the car out of gear (as this will always result in enough of a delay for the engine to start). On an automatic there might not be enough time to restart when the user, particularly if they are using the "both feet" driving technique, floors the accelerator to get out of a junction and doesn't get power when they need it, causing an accident.

The solution for an auto is for it to be a hybrid - that instant acceleration comes from the electric motor, giving plenty of time to restart the engine before the battery runs out.

On your former point, I have a manual petrol car with auto stop/start. I have to be quite careful with it, as the engine can be too slow to kick in if I am very quick moving from neutral to first gear and taking power. Indeed I have very nearly rolled back into somebody mainly as a result of that, though partly also because the electronic handbrake often decides to just release if it can’t detect a gradient and knows you have pushed the accelerator whilst in first or second gear, regardless of whether you have enough power to move. (It is designed to hold you on a hill, but rather bizarrely it will not help you on more “level” roads.)

On your latter point, I quite agree about initially accelerating on an electric motor being the way to go, provided the motor is actually powerful enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On your former point, I have a manual petrol car with auto stop/start. I have to be quite careful with it, as the engine can be too slow to kick in if I am very quick moving from neutral to first gear and taking power. Indeed I have very nearly rolled back into somebody mainly as a result of that, though partly also because the electronic handbrake often decides to just release if it can’t detect a gradient and knows you have pushed the accelerator whilst in first or second gear, regardless of whether you have enough power to move. (It is designed to hold you on a hill, but rather bizarrely it will not help you on more “level” roads.)

Electronic handbrakes - now there's a solution looking for a problem, or perhaps a solution looking to create a problem.

I would pay extra not to have one of those stupid things. People who can't do a hill start just need to either learn to do a hill start (it's not hard, particularly in a modern car where the ECU will help you avoid stalling to some extent) or buy an auto.

 

[M7R]

Yup- although plenty of cars with automatic gearboxes do have stop/start. I know Volkswagen group cars with the DSG gearboxes with stop/start have quite a good system. If you press hard on the brake pedal then the stop/start kills the engine, if you only press it hard enough to hold the car stationary, then the engine stays on. Works well. I've not driven any other vehicles with an automatic and stop/start so can't comment on other manufacturer's implementation.

Sorry going miles off topic here, but cars etc are my day job, as are emissions...

The DSG is not a traditional auto it’s 2 automated manuals working in tandem in very simple terms. This is why it can easily be “stop started”

As for saving fuel...in theory it does, but only if you have extended periods of idling in your journey... and the flip side is the constant starting drains the battery (stop start cars tend to have larger batteries), now modern cars have smart alternators which will load shed, charge more when in gear coasting, etc but there comes a point where the battery has to be charged and therefore the engine has to run...
Then you get into the longer term issues, bottom bearings, turbos, starter motors, dual mass fly wheels all take a battering from stop start, where as keeping things running avoids a lot of these issues... they are unlikely to fail within the warranty period but they will fail sooner than they used to...

The last thing I will say is this, the old NEDC emissions cycle has a lot of idle time in it...that is why stop start gives such a big gain on paper... in the newer WLTP drive cycle there is far less idle and the fuel con savings come from better calibration and smarter tech, to the point that I expect at some point if it wasn’t seen as a backwards step by the public some manufacturers would happily ditch stop start to save costs on components etc.

 

[M7R]

Electronic handbrakes - now there's a solution looking for a problem, or perhaps a solution looking to create a problem.

I would pay extra not to have one of those stupid things. People who can't do a hill start just need to either learn to do a hill start (it's not hard, particularly in a modern car where the ECU will help you avoid stalling to some extent) or buy an auto.

You are thinking of 2 different things here.

Electric hand brake was driven by a desire to make a neater centre console, and save weight, for emissions..(emissions are done in weight bands, so 5kg saved can be the same as saving say 50kg really). That’s in simplistic terms.

Also you have hill hold, or auto hold...both help with hill start but generally speaking, hill hold.. will use the ABS unit to shut the valves to the brakes when the on board inclinometer senses you are parked facing up hill with your foot on the brake, it holds the pressure for a set time -5 to 10 seconds or until the clutch switch engages as your raise the clutch and start to move forward using the wheel speed sensors. Which ever comes first. This gives time to take foot off the brake and press the accelerator.

Auto hold does the same but normally holds pressure for ever until you press the throttle, again this is not exclusively when you have electric hand brake, but normally is....this seems to be due to the abs modules and how it’s interacts with the handbrake coding in the vehicles I have knowledge of..

As a side note, in a DSG style auto sitting with your foot on the brake in gear is bad for them, they should be in neutral if stopped for more than say 30 seconds as all the time they are in gear they are slipping the clutch plates, so no different to people riding the clutch everywhere in a manual rather than using the handbrake..

 

[supervc-10]

I'm aware of the differences between a DSG and a torque converter auto 'box, but BMW seem to manage it with the ubiquitous ZF 9-speed torque converter with little issue. I've just never driven one, but a friend has had 2 BMWs with the 2.0 diesel and ZF auto now (a 320d and now an X1) and they've seemed fine as a passenger.

I've not had my current car long, but my previous 2016 Skoda Fabia would give a noticeably better MPG when the stop/start was working properly around here, as it would stop working when I did too many short runs draining the battery. Manchester traffic is pretty shocking (I'm blaming Northern for some of it, if only to get back onto the subject of trains!) and so I have a lot of sitting idling.

Having said that, the NEDC is pretty terrible. The WLTP seems much better- I've averaged 48 mpg since I got my current car, a 2019 Seat Ibiza, which is bang on the money. According to Seat, the 'combined MPG' figure is 46.3-49.6. I got similar economy out of my Fabia (with less power) and that officially got 60.1 mpg on the NEDC cycle!

 

[HLE]

I can vouch for the ZF 8HP. Shifts smoothly

 

[delticdave]

You are thinking of 2 different things here.

Electric hand brake was driven by a desire to make a neater centre console, and save weight, for emissions..(emissions are done in weight bands, so 5kg saved can be the same as saving say 50kg really). That’s in simplistic terms.

Also you have hill hold, or auto hold...both help with hill start but generally speaking, hill hold.. will use the ABS unit to shut the valves to the brakes when the on board inclinometer senses you are parked facing up hill with your foot on the brake, it holds the pressure for a set time -5 to 10 seconds or until the clutch switch engages as your raise the clutch and start to move forward using the wheel speed sensors. Which ever comes first. This gives time to take foot off the brake and press the accelerator.

Auto hold does the same but normally holds pressure for ever until you press the throttle, again this is not exclusively when you have electric hand brake, but normally is....this seems to be due to the abs modules and how it’s interacts with the handbrake coding in the vehicles I have knowledge of..

As a side note, in a DSG style auto sitting with your foot on the brake in gear is bad for them, they should be in neutral if stopped for more than say 30 seconds as all the time they are in gear they are slipping the clutch plates, so no different to people riding the clutch everywhere in a manual rather than using the handbrake..

We currently own 3 DSG equipped cars & I agree with most of the above, but if you hold any of our cars in drive on the footbrake
the pressure on the 1st gear clutch pack is released, the plates separate, & the RPM's drop to their normal "idling in neutral" speed.
There really isn't a clutch slip problem. (All the DSG's we've ever owned (5 in total) have been the 6-speed DQ250 wet-clutch version.) As for Auto-hold, it doesn't actuate the electric parking brake at all, it just keeps the hydraulic brakes applied on all the wheels, & to make it easy for the driver to know what's happening, it uses a different coloured (green rather than red) warning light.

 

[M7R]

Sorry didn’t word the auto hold well, what I meant was that you don’t tend to find auto hold on that many cars with the manual handbrake, and in my experiance from VAG stuff it seems to be down to the coding within the ABS module.

I won’t go into more now as we are getting way off topic,

Again I didn’t say a proper auto can’t be stop started but it’s taken longer to crack the tech to make it work well and be worth it, some of the OEMs I work with are working on some interesting ideas about mild hybrids and other ways to gain extra savings in WLTP tests as it is not as easy to make savings as it was in NEDC..
I will leave car emissions there for now, anyone wants to discuss anything set up a general chat post and let me know, been my life for the last 7 years or more...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Electronic handbrakes - now there's a solution looking for a problem, or perhaps a solution looking to create a problem.

No cable to stretch, and no way you can accidentally not engage it properly when parking and watch your car roll down the hill.

But back on topic, do the D-stock trains have handbrakes?

 

[anamyd]

I know that. You should read the post I was replying to...

What made you think that I didn't...?

 

[kieron]

The route only carries 2TPH so if the shuttle takes a couple of minutes longer it is unlikely to get in the way of anything else. However the turnaround could be getting a bit tight for one unit to run an hourly service.

The problem with a train taking longer isn't so much fitting everything in as messing up passengers' connections at each end.

People transfer between the shuttle and the Llandudno and London trains. Going east, the shuttle typically has a 5 minute connection at Chester (with a 5 minute minimum connection) and 12 minutes at Crewe (against 10). It can't slow down by much without making the train less useful. There's more slack westbound, but that doesn't help if the train has to leave Chester at a specific time anyway.

By contrast, cutting the journey time to 19 or 20 minutes would mean that, by leaving Chester at the same time, a train could give a valid connection with the Stafford train at Crewe.

There's really nothing special about 75mph trains on this line.

And Concorde had a top speed of Mach 2.05, but would not be suitable!

Well, quite. It'd be out of gauge for one thing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What time period have Vivarail given for delivery of all the Class 230 units on their TfW order and what does their order book show after that order?

 

[GusB]

What time period have Vivarail given for delivery of all the Class 230 units on their TfW order and what does their order book show after that order?

Why don't you ask them?

http://vivarail.co.uk/contact-vivarail/

 

[mmh]

Electric hand brake was driven by a desire to make a neater centre console

That sounds unlikely to me for multiple reasons: the millions of vehicles made with mechanical parking brakes in different places; vehicles without centre consoles; bench seats, etc etc. Electric parking brake switches are usually in the supposedly "neater" centre console

and save weight, for emissions..(emissions are done in weight bands, so 5kg saved can be the same as saving say 50kg really). That’s in simplistic terms.

Not true in Britain.

 

[M7R]

Britain or Europe???? Seeing as how our emissions standards are the same as Europe and others?

Won’t bother arguing I know my day job, I know what I sign off as legal...

 

[Dstock7080]

But back on topic, do the D-stock trains have handbrakes?

They didn’t when in use with LU, SAPBs Spring Applied Parking Brakes on the motor cars were fitted, I assume these have been retained.

 

[Brissle Girl]

What time period have Vivarail given for delivery of all the Class 230 units on their TfW order and what does their order book show after that order?

Given your close interest in the subject, you know very well enough that the TfW order is the only one outstanding at the moment, so not sure why you are asking. Maybe to have another dig? On that point, I don't think you responded to my question as to what it is that you have against Vivarail, as opposed to all the other manufacturers that have missed their delivery deadlines by a country mile. It seems you have a personal grudge against them for some reason? If so, I'm not sure this forum is the place to continue to try and knock them (and if it is, I'm not sure Vivarail itself will care one jot.)

 

[jnjkerbin]

Anyone know if this is working today?

 

[Nippy]

It is out today. Currently working the 08:29 Bedford-Bletchley.

 

[jnjkerbin]

It is out today. Currently working the 08:29 Bedford-Bletchley.

Excellent, thank you!

 

[Railperf]

Am i unique in thinking the Class 230 engines sound like mini Deltic engines when under full power - noticeable at mainly lower speeds?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am i unique in thinking the Class 230 engines sound like mini Deltic engines when under full power - noticeable at mainly lower speeds?

I find you can barely hear them unlike this rattletrap of a Class 159.

 

[31160]

I find you can barely hear them unlike this rattletrap of a Class 159.

That's hardly a fair comparison though is it?. 230's are barely run in and 159's have been thrashed over the mule since the mid 1990's

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's hardly a fair comparison though is it?. 230's are barely run in and 159's have been thrashed over the mule since the mid 1990's

I was just moaning

But 15x have always been noisy.

 

[Neen Sollars]

What time period have Vivarail given for delivery of all the Class 230 units on their TfW order and what does their order book show after that order?

Paul, Vivarail have stated that first TfW 230 will be delivered to Wrexham early summer, so I take that to mean by middle of July. The remaining four units are to be delivered in time for the TfW 230`s to be in service by end of 2019.
Your second question is very pertinent after the five TfW units are delivered Vivarail currently have no further orders on the book. They will have sold (I presume they have sold and not leased) eight sets, three two car sets to LNWR for the Marston Vale line and Five three car sets to TfW for service in North Wales. As far as I know, they already have 230001 a 3 car DEMU and 230002 a two car BEMU as demonstrators, they are currently upcycling a D78 to a two car BEMU for a US sales mission, and developing a four car prototype/demo hydrogen set for future sales targeting the UK market. There is no doubt that Vivarail need further orders, they have a workforce of around 40 to 50 people, the TfW order was announced around this time last year, so I will be watching for further orders soon.
As an aside does anyone know how much a 3 car 230 DEMU sells for? Not that I want to buy one of course.

 

[delticdave]

Sorry didn’t word the auto hold well, what I meant was that you don’t tend to find auto hold on that many cars with the manual handbrake, and in my experiance from VAG stuff it seems to be down to the coding within the ABS module.

I won’t go into more now as we are getting way off topic,

Again I didn’t say a proper auto can’t be stop started but it’s taken longer to crack the tech to make it work well and be worth it, some of the OEMs I work with are working on some interesting ideas about mild hybrids and other ways to gain extra savings in WLTP tests as it is not as easy to make savings as it was in NEDC..
I will leave car emissions there for now, anyone wants to discuss anything set up a general chat post and let me know, been my life for the last 7 years or more...

Yes, we are drifting O/T.......
I still own an old Skoda with a manual handbrake, no auto-hold or stop-start. Usual procedure in traffic is to use the hand or foot brake when stopped & shift the DSG into neutral, just like I've been doing since my 1st automatic car, back in '76. Owned 12 more since + 19 other models (holiday rentals) so I do have some experience in how to drive the things....... Oh yes, I always switch-off the auto stop-start, I like to go when the lights change......
Reverting to trains, I've always wondered why most of the 2nd generation DMUs had the 'orrible 2-speed Voiths, so much time & fuel wasted churning the torque-converter oil until they finally shift up in the 2nd direct gear ratio.
It seems that most of the newer units have a 6-speed 'box with the torque converter (or just a simple fluid coupling?) which must be more economical & probably prolonging the life of the engine?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the Voiths are highly reliable, and fuel consumption was less of an issue back then.

 

[Wolfie]

Hmm, I'd have to ride one to be convinced. I disliked the D78 trains, which were the worst trains on the Underground. Hopefully, they are better suited to their new home.

The D78s were far, particularly after their refurbishment, from the worst trains in use on the Underground. The C class were far worse for a start. Also, though it is heresy to many on here, the A class weren't very good at the end..

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I find you can barely hear them unlike this rattletrap of a Class 159.

What's wrong with a 159? The engine sound at full power at low speed the sound is great. 159 is one of the best units.