Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

[70014IronDuke]

...

Yes, that was probably how it was done. I had forgotten that double block working was possible. I only ever experienced double headed 50s and 90mph+ running on a Sunday when traffic was very light. If ever 90mph was allowed in future, is there anything to prevent operating that way again with current signalling?.

I'm sure we've had this subject before in here. I'm 95% certain that in 1971 the line speed Settle Jcn - Pettril Bridge Jcn was 80 mph. I'm not saying that 2 x 50s did not do 90 mph on occasion - a single 45 + 9 could do 90 mph on the downhill sections, so of course they could - but unless someone can show me a sectional appendix from the years 1972-75 stating otherwise, I don't believe the line was cleared for such speeds when diversions were routed that way for the Weaver Jcn - Motherwell electrification.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Then I wonder why it's still a 60mph railway? I believe it used to be 80(?) in steam days.

For such a long and quite important secondary I'd have thought increasing linespeed would be both useful and sensible.

I believe it was 90 mph in steam days, reduced to 80 mph in the late 60s. Increasing your line speed today, and therefore cutting journey times, could certainly enable more intensive stock utilisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ask the guy who runs the caff. he makes a good living selling clock in cards to 3 peakers.

He doesn't at the minute, sadly, it's closed due to health issues and I suspect won't reopen until someone else takes over. Good memories of that place at the start of Scout hikes though.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/hilltalk/pen-y-ghent_cafe_horton_in_ribblesdale-693982

FWIW, going back on topic, the lack of a daily service onto the S&C from Preston and the relatively high fares (and 2 changes) for going via Lancaster are why we got parents to drop us off for our Venture expeditions rather than going by train as we tended to do for Windermere!

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is local to me so...

3. Many Settle people railhead to Hellifield when going to W Yorkshire, so they have a better choice of return trains. and the car parking at Hellifield is free, unlike Settle.

This has been noted before (probably by your good self). I don't doubt some do this - but how many? I note the ORR figures, assuming they are somewhere near the mark, credit Hellifield with a c 27,000 passengers per year, while Settle gets somewhere around 5 times that number - 141,000 last year.

Surprisingly, Gargrave (at almost 30,000 in last 12 month period) has better numbers than Hellifield - and it gets a poorer service, since a number of Carlisle trains stop at Hellifield but skip Gargrave. (Unless there is some short fareing going on, with passengers claiming to have boarded at Gargrave?)

4 Many trains are heavily loaded. many kids go to college in Skipton and use the train for their commute. Some Leeds - Settle short working would be useful. But that means going to Blea Moor to reverse. While Settle is tiny many visit (and seem to eat too much in the cafes and pubs) Settle is also the only S&C station anywhere near anything. .....

Settle is easily the most used station on the line, with Appleby trailing at far less than half that number. And this, despite the large gap between the morning commuter train into Leeds and the next train south at 10.00, some 2.5 hours later. Makes you feel Settle (and neigbouring stations) could do with an 08.30-ish departure into Leeds or Bradford. I suppose neither stock nor crews are readily available.

 

[yorksrob]

I dispute the idea that Appleby is inconvenient for the town. It's a five minute stroll at most !

 

[70014IronDuke]

I dispute the idea that Appleby is inconvenient for the town. It's a five minute stroll at most !

Thanks for confirming that! I thought so too, but it was so long ago that I last went there, like, er 48 years, I didn't want to stick my neck out.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I dispute the idea that Appleby is inconvenient for the town. It's a five minute stroll at most !

Downhill to boot ! - easy walk to some nice local pubs doing decent food. There the other Friday from KX - Leeds - Appleby - Carlisle and a fast run back down the WCML.

Trains not at all busy though.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for confirming that! I thought so too, but it was so long ago that I last went there, like, er 48 years, I didn't want to stick my neck out.

Downhill to boot ! - easy walk to some nice local pubs doing decent food. There the other Friday from KX - Leeds - Appleby - Carlisle and a fast run back down the WCML.

Trains not at all busy though.

The walk back up takes a bit longer - I would recommend a stop off in The Midland Hotel to get ones breath back !

 

[BigCj34]

Having looked at journey planners, I'm somewhat sceptical that direct Glasgow - Leeds via the S&C services are doable with the rolling stock on offer. Journey times of 4 hours can be achieved by using 125mpg running tilting stock Glasgow - Carlisle, but the non-tilting 100mph Class 350's add an extra 10 minutes to the journey time, which will only increase with 158's.

Voyagers could work but would require them to be cascaded from elsewhere, and presumably short enough for platform length to not be an issue. Also a main draw for travelling from Glasgow to Leeds via the S&C is that the route is cheap, may not be as much if intercity stock runs on the line!

 

[Ken H]

I dispute the idea that Appleby is inconvenient for the town. It's a five minute stroll at most !

Many tourists on the S&C are pensioners. I think for some of them it would be a struggle.

 

[30907]

Trains starting at 0900 is no good for walkers. if you are going to do the Yorkshire 3 peaks you need to be starting about 7. And most start that at Horton in Ribblesdale.

Does the early Saturday train carry loads of 3 Peaks types (not being that way inclined, I've never used it)? Other walkers aren't necessarily early birds.
ATM the S and C is traffic free overnight Sat to Sun (and Sun to Mon) so there may be an operational reason not just an economic one for not starting up early on a Sunday.

 

[Class 170101]

One of the boxes near Carlisle didn't open until 06:00 which meant (I don't know if it still does) the first train was limited stop until picking up its path at Ribblehead (this train used to start here) as the route was normally closed over night except during engineering work diversions.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Some of the things most often requested for the S&C line are longer trains, better quality trains and through trains to Glasgow. Well, you know how Scotrail currently run their DMUs on the Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle service, through to Newcastle even though that bit of the journey is all within England? And you know how Scotrail have just got a load of shiny refurbished shortened HST sets? See where I'm going? Maybe instead of relying on Northern/DRS/WCR to provide stock and services for the tourist and Anglo-Scottish passengers, perhaps someone should be speaking to Scotrail instead?!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some of the things most often requested for the S&C line are longer trains, better quality trains and through trains to Glasgow. Well, you know how Scotrail currently run their DMUs on the Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle service, through to Newcastle even though that bit of the journey is all within England? And you know how Scotrail have just got a load of shiny refurbished shortened HST sets? See where I'm going? Maybe instead of relying on Northern/DRS/WCR to provide stock and services for the tourist and Anglo-Scottish passengers, perhaps someone should be speaking to Scotrail instead?!

Those Scottish 156 sets working through are a legacy of one time Stranraer - Newcastle boat traffic , which no-one has seen fit to transfer (for the Carlisle - Newcastle leg) , presumably much to Northern's benefit. Scotrail has enough to do on their own patch ! ......

 

[ainsworth74]

I dispute the idea that Appleby is inconvenient for the town. It's a five minute stroll at most !

Downhill to boot ! - easy walk to some nice local pubs doing decent food. There the other Friday from KX - Leeds - Appleby - Carlisle and a fast run back down the WCML.

Another vote for Appleby both being a nice place to stop off and also having a convinetly sited station! I recall a trip that a group of Forum members undertake there whilst the line was shut due to landslide a few years ago. A most pleasant afternoon was had!

 

[hexagon789]

I believe it was 90 mph in steam days, reduced to 80 mph in the late 60s. Increasing your line speed today, and therefore cutting journey times, could certainly enable more intensive stock utilisation.

As I said before, 60 seems stupidly slow in this day and age.

Interesting it was as high as 90. Even an increase to that would make a difference. Personally I'd aim for at least 100.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It is part of the vicious circle of railway planning the UK goes in for. Services are slowed, cut back, shorter formed and this makes the service less attractive so it seems spending less was a good plan and there is no reason to spend more. I know that is a sweeping generalisation but there is a kernel of truth in it.

 

[BigCj34]

Some of the things most often requested for the S&C line are longer trains, better quality trains and through trains to Glasgow. Well, you know how Scotrail currently run their DMUs on the Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle service, through to Newcastle even though that bit of the journey is all within England? And you know how Scotrail have just got a load of shiny refurbished shortened HST sets? See where I'm going? Maybe instead of relying on Northern/DRS/WCR to provide stock and services for the tourist and Anglo-Scottish passengers, perhaps someone should be speaking to Scotrail instead?!

Don't really see the benefit of a Glasgow - Leeds through route that goes via Dumfries, considering it takes an extra hour than via the WCML. Unless the residents of Dumfries and Kilmarnock have a pressing desire for a direct Leeds service.

 

[Iskra]

Don't really see the benefit of a Glasgow - Leeds through route that goes via Dumfries, considering it takes an extra hour than via the WCML. Unless the residents of Dumfries and Kilmarnock have a pressing desire for a direct Leeds service.

I agree, that always baffles me on here; Let's introduce an express service* from (South of) Leeds to Carlisle then after that send it on a really slow route to Glasgow, so that the existing circuitous XC service would actually still be quicker.

*Of course the RailUk service would still draw the punters due to having nicer seats that are window-aligned, full first class with a full English breakfast (including black pudding), be loco hauled and operate on a superior taktfahrplan timetable.

On a serious note, the Settle and Carlisle Line is moving in the right direction with having later last trains and more trains overall along with the Bentham Line. That's all that's really needed on the route for the moment.

Some more semi-fast and through services are in the nice to have category, but are far from essential.

 

[BigCj34]

Sounds its not going to be under 4 hours then a Glasgow - Leeds service that competes with the XC ECML service is pointless, and would require 110mph stock anyway and possibly increased speed clearance on the S&C. More favourable Carlisle connections would be handy though, especially when the ticket price is cheaper that way.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I have to say that in my quite long lifetime there have not been direct trains from Preson to the S&C. The nearest being a very few daily trains from Skipton.
To get to Hellifield ( for spotting ) it was always necessary to change at Blackburn and there were very few passengers between there and Hellifield.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I thought that in steam days there were no PSRs between Settle and Carlisle and no speed limit. Not that it was relevant when most traffic was loose coupled freight with very few passenger trains.

 

[chorleyjeff]

But not relevant from day one of the line. There has never been much passenger traffic on this "accidental route". My observations in the late 1950s was that passenger trains were poorly patronised but there were quite a few passenger trains through Hellifield to Morecambe albeit with Midland 4F or Ivatt class 4MTs making much noise but little speed.

 

[Condor7]

One of the boxes near Carlisle didn't open until 06:00 which meant (I don't know if it still does) the first train was limited stop until picking up its path at Ribblehead (this train used to start here) as the route was normally closed over night except during engineering work diversions.

Although overnight traffic is very limited it does still exist. Tuesday to Friday sees as early morning gypsum freight to Kirkby Thore joining the southern end of the line around 4pm. Also the remnants of the once busy coal traffic is a Killoch to Drax train that runs during the early hours of Saturday morning.
Again only very occasionally but there can be single loco movements overnight as well. So presumably the line must remain open each night?

 

[The Planner]

All the boxes apart from Kirkby Thore are open continuously and even then that only closes on a Sunday I think.

 

[Ken H]

All the boxes apart from Kirkby Thore are open continuously and even then that only closes on a Sunday I think.

this list of S&C signalboxes (closed and extant) may be of interest.
no quote - its just a list
https://www.settle-carlisle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/cm-Settle-Carlisle-Signal-Boxes.pdf

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Just thought I’d throw this out there as a guide that works on the line and travels on the services on a daily basis......

The 0919/1049 Leeds - Carlisle services and 1404/1450 Carlisle - Leeds services are booked as a 3 car (1x 158+1x 153) and are very well loaded. If for whatever reason we get a 2 car 158 on these services, which happens on an almost daily basis now, then the service is virtually full and standing, especially so going south from Carlisle. Throw in the large groups of 40 - 50 people that book onto our services and generally the ones I’ve mentioned then it’s standing down the vestibules all the way! Sunday’s we seem to be regularly getting a 2 car 150 on the ex Nottingham service too!

The majority of other services are booked as 2 car and generally cope with traffic levels unless we get a large group on.

On a side note, the current 1404 ‘express’ from Carlisle will be moved forward to 1340 to give a more even spread between the 1049 and 1450.

Which services are worked by 4-car 158s then? I always assumed the 1404 service to be 4-car given it has the least stops.

 

[trainmananthon]

Which services are worked by 4-car 158s then? I always assumed the 1404 service to be 4-car given it has the least stops.

There are no booked four car 158s any more! That ceased with the timetable change. It did however used to operate the 1049 ex Leeds and 1404 ex Carlisle.

Rather oddly there is a booked 5 car 158 diagram up here, however it very rarely actually materialises. This is supposed to be the first one from Leeds and last one from Carlisle on a Sunday.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are no booked four car 158s any more! That ceased with the timetable change. It did however used to operate the 1049 ex Leeds and 1404 ex Carlisle.

Rather oddly there is a booked 5 car 158 diagram up here, however it very rarely actually materialises. This is supposed to be the first one from Leeds and last one from Carlisle on a Sunday.

Presumably to ferry sets off / to Neville Hill to the Border City for the Cumbrian Coast ? - (way back the 14x were sent this way)

 

[trainmananthon]

Presumably to ferry sets off / to Neville Hill to the Border City for the Cumbrian Coast ? - (way back the 14x were sent this way)

I don’t think so, as it’s normally worked by 2x 158s. They leave one unit behind when it gets to Carlisle, and go back to Leeds leaving the unit sat there all day until the last train, which it’s booked to come back on.