Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

[yorksrob]

I agree, that always baffles me on here; Let's introduce an express service* from (South of) Leeds to Carlisle then after that send it on a really slow route to Glasgow, so that the existing circuitous XC service would actually still be quicker.

*Of course the RailUk service would still draw the punters due to having nicer seats that are window-aligned, full first class with a full English breakfast (including black pudding), be loco hauled and operate on a superior taktfahrplan timetable.

On a serious note, the Settle and Carlisle Line is moving in the right direction with having later last trains and more trains overall along with the Bentham Line. That's all that's really needed on the route for the moment.

Some more semi-fast and through services are in the nice to have category, but are far from essential.

In my experience, some of the 2 carriage services need to be longer as well.

 

[Iskra]

In my experience, some of the 2 carriage services need to be longer as well.

In an ideal world yes, but Northern run 2/3/4 car trains on the S&C while Leeds-Nottingham gets consistently 2 car 158’s or sometimes 144/150. I’ve lived on both lines and think Northern have got strange priorities with their current stock allocations.

The S&C is busy mainly with leisure travellers at fairly predictable times. The Sheffield semi-fasts are busy pretty much all the time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In an ideal world yes, but Northern run 2/3/4 car trains on the S&C while Leeds-Nottingham gets consistently 2 car 158’s or sometimes 144/150. I’ve lived on both lines and think Northern have got strange priorities with their current stock allocations.

The S&C is busy mainly with leisure travellers at fairly predictable times. The Sheffield semi-fasts are busy pretty much all the time.

Being a bit heartless maybe , I suspect that much of the S+C business is at discounted rates , off peak and maybe party rates. In passing someone mentioned a 2 hourly semi-fast and a 2 hourly all stations plan for the S+C , the slow train , I suspect would be an absolute basket case. (though maybe one carefully chosen train a day might be useful , but still a cost-cow as opposed to a cash cow)

Leeds - Nottingham has been referred to as Northern's flagship route , a good service initiative , and probably earns more money per allocated vehicle (a Regional Railways intitiative) than much of the rest of their portfolio.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As I said before, 60 seems stupidly slow in this day and age.

Interesting it was as high as 90. Even an increase to that would make a difference. Personally I'd aim for at least 100.

There will be people in here who know far better than me, but my impression is that the costs of upgrading and maintaining track to speeds of 100 mph would be out of all proportion to the potential returns. Chief Planner has posted several times that recent-ish studies to make the line 75 mph just don't cut the mustard, so 100 mph is pure dreamland.

I thought that in steam days there were no PSRs between Settle and Carlisle and no speed limit. Not that it was relevant when most traffic was loose coupled freight with very few passenger trains.

Not even round the curves at - is it Ormside? Or Smardale? I remember going over the line in 1971, and I think there was a 70 mph PSR somewhere north of Ais Gill, and the driver took it 'liberally'. It was quite frightening, actually. It was a long way down from the cab of a 45.

You may be quite correct that there was no speed limit in steam days - drivers were simply expected to drive within limits that they deemed safe. The point is, however, that it was built as an express railway - not a secondary route limited to 60 mph as today.

 

[yorksrob]

In an ideal world yes, but Northern run 2/3/4 car trains on the S&C while Leeds-Nottingham gets consistently 2 car 158’s or sometimes 144/150. I’ve lived on both lines and think Northern have got strange priorities with their current stock allocations.

The S&C is busy mainly with leisure travellers at fairly predictable times. The Sheffield semi-fasts are busy pretty much all the time.

Leeds - Nottingham gets busy in the rush hour, but most of the time it seems comfortably loaded, particularly given there are two fast Barnsley expresses an hour. The Hallam stopper is often busier.

Now maybe if they stopped some more of them at Normy....

 

[Iskra]

Leeds - Nottingham gets busy in the rush hour, but most of the time it seems comfortably loaded, particularly given there are two fast Barnsley expresses an hour. The Hallam stopper is often busier.

Now maybe if they stopped some more of them at Normy....

I'm not so sure. Whenever I'm on it is busy. There is often a big changeover of passengers at Barnsley. 7 of us stood in the front vestibule of one yesterday evening...

Hallam stopper gets rammed between Leeds-Castleford and Sheffield-Meadowhall but is tolerable inbetween.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not so sure. Whenever I'm on it is busy. There is often a big changeover of passengers at Barnsley. 7 of us stood in the front vestibule of one yesterday evening...

Hallam stopper gets rammed between Leeds-Castleford and Sheffield-Meadowhall but is tolerable inbetween.

I'm sure it has it's busy times, but I've rarely seen the Hallam fast full and standing out of Leeds outside of the rush hour.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There will be people in here who know far better than me, but my impression is that the costs of upgrading and maintaining track to speeds of 100 mph would be out of all proportion to the potential returns. Chief Planner has posted several times that recent-ish studies to make the line 75 mph just don't cut the mustard, so 100 mph is pure dreamland.



Not even round the curves at - is it Ormside? Or Smardale? I remember going over the line in 1971, and I think there was a 70 mph PSR somewhere north of Ais Gill, and the driver took it 'liberally'. It was quite frightening, actually. It was a long way down from the cab of a 45.

You may be quite correct that there was no speed limit in steam days - drivers were simply expected to drive within limits that they deemed safe. The point is, however, that it was built as an express railway - not a secondary route limited to 60 mph as today.

Not sure about drivers being allowed to speed .....am sure there was some sort of allowance for being a bit over , but line speeds would have been clearly marked in the sectional appendix, and there were checks in the train registers at signal boxes , as well as alert Traction Inspectors , and Guards Journals.

 

[hexagon789]

There will be people in here who know far better than me, but my impression is that the costs of upgrading and maintaining track to speeds of 100 mph would be out of all proportion to the potential returns. Chief Planner has posted several times that recent-ish studies to make the line 75 mph just don't cut the mustard, so 100 mph is pure dreamland.

I suppose that post-HS2 it will make even less sense really.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

There are no booked four car 158s any more! That ceased with the timetable change. It did however used to operate the 1049 ex Leeds and 1404 ex Carlisle.

Rather oddly there is a booked 5 car 158 diagram up here, however it very rarely actually materialises. This is supposed to be the first one from Leeds and last one from Carlisle on a Sunday.

Ah, that explains the videos and images of 4-car 158s I've seen. Thanks for the insight, I've been wondering about this type of stuff for a while!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not sure about drivers being allowed to speed .....am sure there was some sort of allowance for being a bit over , but line speeds would have been clearly marked in the sectional appendix, and there were checks in the train registers at signal boxes , as well as alert Traction Inspectors , and Guards Journals.

No, no no! I never suggested drivers were "being allowed to speed".
On this particular run (the down Thames-Clyde), he just went for it.

We had a problem somewhere around Kirkstall Forge, and lost something like 20 minutes, IIRC. The driver, a Holbeck man, of course, was just doing his best to make up time. Actually, I was originally going to Settle. I had a (priv) ticket to there - but I also had an LMR footplate pass. Although I wasn't on duty, I asked if I could get in the cab when we changed engines at Leeds. After we got going, he invited me to stay on over the top - which of course, I couldn't refuse.

It's a long time ago, but after Ais Gill I think he was doing 85 or so downhill (line speed then 80 mph), and then he braked a bit for the curve, which I think was 70 mph, but we went round it closer to 80 mph. I'm sure he knew it was safe enough, but it did feel a bit scary to me, standing in the cab and looking down a rather steep embankment to our left. I have a vauge memory the second man might have said something about drinks being spilled in the RB - but that could just be my imagination. But it was certainly commented on that we were doing a wee bit over the limit.

Thinking about it, this curve must have been south of Appleby, because I jumped off there, probably had a beer and went back to Settle with the same crew a couple of hours later, on the 16.xx Glasgow - Leeds. It was August, so still light all the way.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

No, no no! I never suggested drivers were "being allowed to speed".
On this particular run (the down Thames-Clyde), he just went for it.

We had a problem somewhere around Kirkstall Forge, and lost something like 20 minutes, IIRC. The driver, a Holbeck man, of course, was just doing his best to make up time. Actually, I was originally going to Settle. I had a (priv) ticket to there - but I also had an LMR footplate pass. Although I wasn't on duty, I asked if I could get in the cab when we changed engines at Leeds. After we got going, he invited me to stay on over the top - which of course, I couldn't refuse.

It's a long time ago, but after Ais Gill I think he was doing 85 or so downhill (line speed then 80 mph), and then he braked a bit for the curve, which I think was 70 mph, but we went round it closer to 80 mph. I'm sure he knew it was safe enough, but it did feel a bit scary to me, standing in the cab and looking down a rather steep embankment to our left. I have a vauge memory the second man might have said something about drinks being spilled in the RB - but that could just be my imagination. But it was certainly commented on that we were doing a wee bit over the limit.

Thinking about it, this curve must have been south of Appleby, because I jumped off there, probably had a beer and went back to Settle with the same crew a couple of hours later, on the 16.xx Glasgow - Leeds. It was August, so still light all the way.

Got some good stories about train crew interpretation of line speeds ...with a pass and riding legimately (no alcohol involved in either parties) , I had to gently remind a driver of light class 46 "somewhere in South Wales" that the light engine speed was 60 mph , not nearly 90 mph. His comment , having checked right down , was that his wife had the dinner on ......

 

[Iskra]

I'm sure it has it's busy times, but I've rarely seen the Hallam fast full and standing out of Leeds outside of the rush hour.

The stopper is simply flooded with Castleford passengers though. One day hopefully there will be enough units for dedicated seperate Castleford and Hallam services. I appreciate the need for the current compromise but it’s an irritating arrangement.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I think there were speed limits in steam days. Specfc to locations, class of train and class of loco or unit. Rather like today.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Apologies for repetition if already covered up-thread but have just come across a couple of old Sectional Appendices. Central Lines for October 1960 shows 80mph overall speed Skipton to Carlisle. Local restrictions at various places, e.g. Gargrave curves 60mph, Hellifield 60mph, Settle Junction 60mph, around Crosby Garrett 70mph, Long Marton subsidence 30mph and Low House Crossing curves 60mph.
Northern Section June 1969 already had Settle Junction-Kirkby Stephen down to 60mph overall speed. Still the same in November 1973 even with Weaver Junction-Glasgow electrification diversions of that era. Whole lot from regional boundary at Connonly down to 60mph by December 1977.
Some logs in the Railway Magazine in the 1960s included local speeds achieved in the upper 80s but not sustained.
Although I am old enough to remember enjoying lunch in the restaurant car of the Thames Clyde Express over the S&C it has always been a sedate trundle in my experience - and all the more enjoyable for that.

 

[yorksrob]

The stopper is simply flooded with Castleford passengers though. One day hopefully there will be enough units for dedicated seperate Castleford and Hallam services. I appreciate the need for the current compromise but it’s an irritating arrangement.

But my original point is that outside of the rush hour, the Hallam fasts aren't overloaded. I've been on some uncomfortably busy 2 carriage 158's on the S&C with it's much sparser service.

 

[cle]

It shouldn't be too tricky to get back to 80mph surely, and hopefully maybe 90mph in some stretches? I can't see the need for any stops between Carlisle and Skipton - possibly Settle just for local support.

 

[Bald Rick]

It shouldn't be too tricky to get back to 80mph surely, and hopefully maybe 90mph in some stretches? I can't see the need for any stops between Carlisle and Skipton - possibly Settle just for local support.

It’s not been 80mph for 40-50 years. It’s tricky!

 

[DarloRich]

It shouldn't be too tricky to get back to 80mph surely, and hopefully maybe 90mph in some stretches?

not tricky at all. piece of cake. It is just bone idleness preventing it from happening.

This board Ray, this board.........................

 

[chorleyjeff]

Interesting info. re speed restrictions although I had been referring to Settle to Carlisle. It would be interesting to have similar information for between WW1 and WW2 or when the Midland was trying to compete, at least in the comfort of the journey, for Scottish traffic.
In steam days before A3s appeared the passenger trains did seem pedestrian. A Blaxk 5 on the very late up Waverley seemingly blowing steam from every orrifice passing slowly through Hellifield is a particular memory - perhaps a substitute for a failed engine. And maybe stuck behind a 4F on a Morecambe to West Yorkshire passenger train.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Interesting info. re speed restrictions although I had been referring to Settle to Carlisle. It would be interesting to have similar information for between WW1 and WW2 or when the Midland was trying to compete, at least in the comfort of the journey, for Scottish traffic.
In steam days before A3s appeared the passenger trains did seem pedestrian. A Blaxk 5 on the very late up Waverley seemingly blowing steam from every orrifice passing slowly through Hellifield is a particular memory - perhaps a substitute for a failed engine. And maybe stuck behind a 4F on a Morecambe to West Yorkshire passenger train.

"North Of Leeds" happens to be handy , so a quick peruse of the "special attention" to the "Thames Clyde" express (Winter 1932) gives a St Pancras departure of 1000 am and a Glasgow arrival of 6.50 p.m (an acceleration of 20 mins) - the midday from London arrived at 9.00 p.m at Glasgow - the 2 key trains from Glasgow left at 0930 and 1200 noon and arrived at St Pancras at 6.35 and 9.08 p.m

As an aside , premium freight - "Fully Fitted no 1" - was the 6.50 Glasgow Buchanan St to St Pancras goods - covered the 418 miles in just under 11 hours 30 mins.

BY 1965 - the only "fast" train was the stalwart "Thames Clyde" - St Pancras 1015 calling at Leicester / Trent / Chesterfield / Sheffield / Leeds (231 p.m - 241 p.m) - thence Skipton , Hellifield , Settle , Appleby West and Carlisle at 4.54 pm - the overall service was very thin , - an 0734 am Appleby to Carlisle , a Leeds to Carlisle "express" into the Border city at 1245 p.m. A Hellifield to Carlisle local 1208 p.m. - arrival 2.28 p.m - thence the Thames Clyde and a local from Bradford to Carlisle , arriving at 7.19 p.m. The first southbound train in daylight was an 08.05 local to Hellifield , then 2 expresses - and nothing till the 4.37 p.m to Bradford all stations , an 6.05 p.m local to Appleby and a final semi-fast at 6.50 p.m (from Glasgow) to Leeds (9.13 p.m) , which amazingly had both dining and buffet cars.

 

[trainmananthon]

More as something of interest that anything....

Due to a points failure accessing the loop at Hellifield the Dalesman ended up stuck infront of the 1049 service train to Carlisle and caused it to arrive there two hours late...

The service train delayed return working ran non-stop from Carlisle - Settle and on to Skipton where it terminated and did the journey to Settle in 1:19 and Skipton in 1:38.

Compare that to the same train doing all stations and Carlisle - Settle is 1:37 and Skipton is 2:04.

 

[Grumpy]

The service train delayed return working ran non-stop from Carlisle - Settle and on to Skipton where it terminated and did the journey to Settle in 1:19 and Skipton in 1:38.
Compare that to the same train doing all stations and Carlisle - Settle is 1:37 and Skipton is 2:04.

I think that's perfectly reasonable. The 1600 Skipton to Carlisle is scheduled to take 1 hour 58 with 11 stops. Taking 10 of those out at a yardstick 2 minutes/stop gives 1 hour 38.
If you add 36 minutes for running to Leeds with 3 intermediate calls you have 2hours 14 for a Leeds-Carlisle fast service. Or somewhere around 3 hours 40 to Glasgow assuming no further stops. That's 25-30 minutes faster than most of the rail alternatives. This is all without spending a penny on fettling up the track or the use of high speed/tilting rolling stock.
I am surprised no-one has mentioned the Northern Spirit Leeds-Glasgow trains. These basically used a 158 which had part earnt its keep on a morning commuter service into Leeds and later on an evening commuter train out of Leeds, but was used during the day to do a round trip to Glasgow. Better than simply parking in the platforms at Leeds all day. I travelled on it a few times and it was useful if you had a meeting in Glasgow starting after lunch, or had a morning meeting that finished at lunchtime and no reason to spend the afternoon in Glasgow. The timings weren't particularly demanding-the southbound train sat in the platform at Carlisle for approx. 10 minutes (I remember a guard announcing this and advising passengers they had enough time to get off the train if they wanted a cigarette). Similarly on at least one occasion a 156 turned up and had no difficulty keeping time to Glasgow. I often wondered if this was the only time a 156 had worked a booked service over Shap.
However there has never been a proper Glasgow-West Yorkshire via Carlisle service offering fast trains at times attractive to business travellers. I am sure there is a market for a through service-Northern Spirit were competing with Leeds-Glasgow flights, at that time 3/day charging fares similar to first class rail and the 0700 Leeds-Glasgow flight was always full. Changes in airline economics, including Air Passenger Duty, have put paid to the flights.

 

[trebor79]

Investing in existing lines such as this in order to increase capacity and line speeds would be far more useful to the economy than wasting £58+ billion on the HS2 vanity project.
Really away from the lines to and from London, the rest of the rail network is pretty pedestrian and underutilised.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would probably put that enhancing the S+C to 100mph running would be a greater vanity project!

Outside the summer peaks and in the early mornings I have found the through run to Carlisle very poorly loaded, barring a bunch of people getting the train from Appleby to Carlisle, and a smattering of people going from Leeds to Skipton early doors it is again poorly utilised.

Lets not forget Carlisle is not a big place. It has the same population as Keighley at around 70,000. There will not be people planning to commute between the 2. What is the point of trying to capture a market that isnt there. Go for what is more likely to attract punters to this line.

1. Window - seat aligned and predominantly with tables rolling stock with big windows.
2. Catering - trolley is fine(currently provided by the friends of the S and C who go between Settle and Appleby who do a cracking job)
3. Early and Late services (8am - 8pm is fine, few people are walking after this on weekends) to accommodate walkers at most stations
4. Normal stock to run a faster service between the larger stops, ie Skipton - Hellifield - Settle - Appleby - Carlisle Should do.
5. Need to ensure that there is a path for steam specials etc..., required freight runs etc...
6. The tourist train can run Skipton-Carlisle, plenty of Aire Valley Services get you to Skipton quick enough and leaves enough capacity for faster Lancaster and Carlisle trains that have to run through the Aire Valley.

 

[yorksrob]

More as something of interest that anything....

Due to a points failure accessing the loop at Hellifield the Dalesman ended up stuck infront of the 1049 service train to Carlisle and caused it to arrive there two hours late...

The service train delayed return working ran non-stop from Carlisle - Settle and on to Skipton where it terminated and did the journey to Settle in 1:19 and Skipton in 1:38.

Compare that to the same train doing all stations and Carlisle - Settle is 1:37 and Skipton is 2:04.

I think missing out Appleby was a bit harsh !

 

[yorksrob]

I would probably put that enhancing the S+C to 100mph running would be a greater vanity project!

Outside the summer peaks and in the early mornings I have found the through run to Carlisle very poorly loaded, barring a bunch of people getting the train from Appleby to Carlisle, and a smattering of people going from Leeds to Skipton early doors it is again poorly utilised.

Lets not forget Carlisle is not a big place. It has the same population as Keighley at around 70,000. There will not be people planning to commute between the 2. What is the point of trying to capture a market that isnt there. Go for what is more likely to attract punters to this line.

1. Window - seat aligned and predominantly with tables rolling stock with big windows.
2. Catering - trolley is fine(currently provided by the friends of the S and C who go between Settle and Appleby who do a cracking job)
3. Early and Late services (8am - 8pm is fine, few people are walking after this on weekends) to accommodate walkers at most stations
4. Normal stock to run a faster service between the larger stops, ie Skipton - Hellifield - Settle - Appleby - Carlisle Should do.
5. Need to ensure that there is a path for steam specials etc..., required freight runs etc...
6. The tourist train can run Skipton-Carlisle, plenty of Aire Valley Services get you to Skipton quick enough and leaves enough capacity for faster Lancaster and Carlisle trains that have to run through the Aire Valley.

The new late evening service is quite useful for people getting back from Settle (and going from there for a night on the town).

 

[Ken H]

No, no no! I never suggested drivers were "being allowed to speed".
On this particular run (the down Thames-Clyde), he just went for it.

We had a problem somewhere around Kirkstall Forge, and lost something like 20 minutes, IIRC. The driver, a Holbeck man, of course, was just doing his best to make up time. Actually, I was originally going to Settle. I had a (priv) ticket to there - but I also had an LMR footplate pass. Although I wasn't on duty, I asked if I could get in the cab when we changed engines at Leeds. After we got going, he invited me to stay on over the top - which of course, I couldn't refuse.

It's a long time ago, but after Ais Gill I think he was doing 85 or so downhill (line speed then 80 mph), and then he braked a bit for the curve, which I think was 70 mph, but we went round it closer to 80 mph. I'm sure he knew it was safe enough, but it did feel a bit scary to me, standing in the cab and looking down a rather steep embankment to our left. I have a vauge memory the second man might have said something about drinks being spilled in the RB - but that could just be my imagination. But it was certainly commented on that we were doing a wee bit over the limit.

Thinking about it, this curve must have been south of Appleby, because I jumped off there, probably had a beer and went back to Settle with the same crew a couple of hours later, on the 16.xx Glasgow - Leeds. It was August, so still light all the way.

When did steam locos get speedos? Seem to remember comments in LTC rolts 'red for Danger' about over speeding causing accidents (may have been the Salisbury accident??) and the lack of speedos.

And were speed restrictions not generally marked except on the LNER, who pioneered the cut out yellow speed signs? no other company thought them necessary.

 

[Ken H]

Apologies for repetition if already covered up-thread but have just come across a couple of old Sectional Appendices. Central Lines for October 1960 shows 80mph overall speed Skipton to Carlisle. Local restrictions at various places, e.g. Gargrave curves 60mph, Hellifield 60mph, Settle Junction 60mph, around Crosby Garrett 70mph, Long Marton subsidence 30mph and Low House Crossing curves 60mph.
Northern Section June 1969 already had Settle Junction-Kirkby Stephen down to 60mph overall speed. Still the same in November 1973 even with Weaver Junction-Glasgow electrification diversions of that era. Whole lot from regional boundary at Connonly down to 60mph by December 1977.
Some logs in the Railway Magazine in the 1960s included local speeds achieved in the upper 80s but not sustained.
Although I am old enough to remember enjoying lunch in the restaurant car of the Thames Clyde Express over the S&C it has always been a sedate trundle in my experience - and all the more enjoyable for that.

I remember in the 1970's the DMU's braking at the ER-LMR boundary. And the stations west of there had a general air of neglect, unlike the ER ones which were in better condition. One of Skiptons signalboxes was so worn it wasnt safe, so they could not use the east facing bay.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Apologies for repetition if already covered up-thread but have just come across a couple of old Sectional Appendices.

Not repitition at all - just what was needed, actually. Except - while I could accept the details for 65-66 when I first used the line, it doesn't fit my memory of 71. And I know it was 71, so that gives me a problem!

Central Lines for October 1960 shows 80mph overall speed Skipton to Carlisle. Local restrictions at various places, e.g. Gargrave curves 60mph, Hellifield 60mph, Settle Junction 60mph, around Crosby Garrett 70mph, Long Marton subsidence 30mph and Low House Crossing curves 60mph.

I do seem to remember the 60 mph at Settle Jcn - and I'm pretty sure the 70 mph curve at Crosby Garrett (before and over Smardale Viaduct?) was the one my driver took at nearer 80 mph in 1971.

Northern Section June 1969 already had Settle Junction-Kirkby Stephen down to 60mph overall speed.

This is the bit that flummoxes me, as I was sure it was 80 in 1971. I could accept my memory had got it wrong and it was 70 mph, but I can't believe we crawled over the route at 60 mph - or were supposed to. Oh dear, perhaps the grey matter is worse than I thought ....

Although I am old enough to remember enjoying lunch in the restaurant car of the Thames Clyde Express over the S&C it has always been a sedate trundle in my experience - and all the more enjoyable for that.

My paper round money would not extend to lunch in a BR Mk 1 in 1965, sadly.