Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

[ComUtoR]

This is based on what I do and have done all my working life. If it takes 30 minutes to get somewhere give myself an hour. Like I say you can never be to early

My dad always drummed into me about (a) never getting a second chance to create a good first impression and (b) catch the train before.

If I'm driving to work I'll leave earlier than I have to go account for traffic conditions. If I get the bus I'll try and get an earlier one, I just see it as common sense.

I've also lived by this ethos. For me it was my Mum that drove it into me. Leave early, plan for any problems, allow for things to go wrong, have an alternative etc. My drive to work can take 20 minutes on a good day. On a bad day it takes nearly an hour. Trains, planes and automobiles never run on time. It would be remiss of me not to allow for that. I also firmly believe in personal responsibility. If I know the train is regularly late and I needed to be somewhere and I didn't plan for that. It would be MY Fault.

*Disclaimer : I work for a TOC. Apparently that informs my opinion and I'm not allowed to every be a 'passenger' or a 'human' or an 'adult'

 

[yorkie]

The responses by some individuals about the low quality we should expect from their services are, shall we say, 'interesting', but still don't answer my questions!

And the word 'always' was used!

 

[yorksrob]

Or maybe we should give up on these rural lines, leave them for freight only and subsidise better buses? It may well cost less.

No, I don't think so, particularly since it's not just rural lines that suffer from differing contract arrangements so such a course of action wouldn't even solve the problem, just give succour to the roads conversion league, or whatever they're called these days.

 

[yorksrob]

(I know you were replying to someone else's post but will comment anyway.) I am now retired but in my last job I had the pleasure of paying over £6,000 per year for my season ticket which was at least flexible. Fortunately my attendance at work wasn't time critical every day but if there was a particular meeting at 0900 (which there often was) it was very much a case of 'a train in hand'. I usually cycled to the station (to avoid the bus) but that also allowed time for walking if the bike was defective. We had trains from 05XX so there was no real 'first train' problem.
This sort of thing is all part of the equation of working out where to live in relation to work. My dad always drummed into me about (a) never getting a second chance to create a good first impression and (b) catch the train before. Having worked shifts and needing to relieve colleagues promptly helps to instill a particular mindset too.

R.e. "working out where to live in relation to work", if you live near a station with a half hourly frequency, you should be able to plan on the basis of that half hourly service running reliably.

 

[Aivilo]

I've also lived by this ethos. For me it was my Mum that drove it into me. Leave early, plan for any problems, allow for things to go wrong, have an alternative etc. My drive to work can take 20 minutes on a good day. On a bad day it takes nearly an hour. Trains, planes and automobiles never run on time. It would be remiss of me not to allow for that. I also firmly believe in personal responsibility. If I know the train is regularly late and I needed to be somewhere and I didn't plan for that. It would be MY Fault.

*Disclaimer : I work for a TOC. Apparently that informs my opinion and I'm not allowed to every be a 'passenger' or a 'human' or an 'adult'

Well said, it's not about accepting a poor service it's about being an accountable adult.

 

[Killingworth]

R.e. "working out where to live in relation to work", if you live near a station with a half hourly frequency, you should be able to plan on the basis of that half hourly service running reliably.

If it's an hourly service that's possibly more than twice as important! How much earlier should one plan when needing to be somewhere for a specific time?

No wonder public transport of any kind struggles. It's bad enough when they run to time. Add overcrowding and cancellations and it's a minor miracle so many of us still use trains at all. Some in Northern seem determined to frustrate those who are simultaneously trying to encourage more to use their services. But industrial relations and marketing rarely sit well together.

 

[underbank]

If you've only got a two-hourly service, you can't realistically be expected to take an earlier train. Also a little unrealistic if it's an hourly service. But yes, a half hourly service, take an earlier one just in case.

But a bigger problem if you're already taking the first service of the day, say from Cumbria, to Manchester Airport. You simply can't take an earlier one, and you're going to risk missing your flight if trains are cancelled or delayed, so basically, you're stuffed. Hence why so many drive.

If you're in a city with good, regular, trains, like London, then taking an earlier one is no problem, but when you already have a poor, irregular service, it's a big issue and something that drives people away from the trains.

 

[Eric]

All Blackpool to Manchester cancelled yesterday. My son and grandson went to Blackpool for the summer bash and said coming back was the trip from hell.

Northern running a 150 from Blackpool to Leeds which was standing only. Disgraceful how northern think running 150s on Blackpool to Leeds services is acceptable. I know some of the 158s are getting refurbs but why a 150 which has less capacity and luggage capacity.

The sooner Northern lose the franchise the better.

 

[Bovverboy]

All Blackpool to Manchester cancelled yesterday.

According to 'Realtime Trains', the only service out of Blackpool North to be cancelled yesterday was the hourly one to Manchester Victoria. The hourly service to Manchester Oxford Road and/or Manchester Airport apparently ran more or less as scheduled.

 

[Bovverboy]

Sorry, a few journeys on Blackpool North to Oxford Road/Manchester Airport also missed yesterday, they were mainly in the evening, and I'd missed them.

 

[Matt_pool]

11 Northern services cancelled from/to Liverpool Lime Street yesterday, or 12 if you include 5F14 which was just moving a unit from Lime Street to Allerton Depot.

Reason for cancellation:

"This service was cancelled throughout due to a delay not investigated (OU)."

So far today there have "only" been 2 cancellations from Lime Street. One of these was 1N81, the 7.36 to Blackpool North via Preston. Imagine if you had to rely on that train to get to work in Preston. What do you do, get the train before that an hour earlier at 6.36!?

 

[Eric]

According to 'Realtime Trains', the only service out of Blackpool North to be cancelled yesterday was the hourly one to Manchester Victoria. The hourly service to Manchester Oxford Road and/or Manchester Airport apparently ran more or less as scheduled.

So the 21 past cancelled and with the Summer Bash finished everyone crush loaded onto the 17 past to Leeds which was a single 150. I still stand by my Northern are a disgrace comment.

 

[3141]

If you've only got a two-hourly service, you can't realistically be expected to take an earlier train. Also a little unrealistic if it's an hourly service. But yes, a half hourly service, take an earlier one just in case.

But a bigger problem if you're already taking the first service of the day, say from Cumbria, to Manchester Airport. You simply can't take an earlier one, and you're going to risk missing your flight if trains are cancelled or delayed, so basically, you're stuffed. Hence why so many drive.

If you're in a city with good, regular, trains, like London, then taking an earlier one is no problem, but when you already have a poor, irregular service, it's a big issue and something that drives people away from the trains.

If I'm going from my home in North Hampshire to Gatwick or Heathrow I will probably stay the night before at an airport hotel. I have gone by train and by car to Gatwick for a flight at 11.50, which means I should aim to be at the airport by 9.50. But I know that something may go wrong either way. On the train it may be the fault of the railway, but it could also be something outside their control (a suicide, for example). On the road it may an accident. To get to Heathrow for a flight before 11.00, i.e. arrive by 9.00, would mean the 6.40 train which would give me about 20 minutes of spare time. Far too much uncertainty to be comfortable with, plus the pressures of rush hour travelling in London. If I was travelling from Cumbria to Manchester Airport and had to be on the first train of the day I absolutely wouldn't do that, but I'd stay in a hotel the previous night. If I couldn't afford a hotel I wouldn't have chosen that flight. It's unrealistic to think that train or car will go so smoothly that no contingencies should be planned for, and it's unrealistic to book a flight and depend on a totally incident-free journey of two hours or more to the airport to catch it just in time.

 

[yorksrob]

If it's an hourly service that's possibly more than twice as important! How much earlier should one plan when needing to be somewhere for a specific time?

No wonder public transport of any kind struggles. It's bad enough when they run to time. Add overcrowding and cancellations and it's a minor miracle so many of us still use trains at all. Some in Northern seem determined to frustrate those who are simultaneously trying to encourage more to use their services. But industrial relations and marketing rarely sit well together.

Quite. It's one thing to expect people to plan reasonable connections (although even this isn't always possible, where you have one hourly service making a poor connection with another hourly example). It's reasonable to work on the assumption that a train might be a bit late.

But expecting passengers to plan around an hourly service that is routinely cancelled for example, isn't accceptable.

 

[underbank]

If I was travelling from Cumbria to Manchester Airport and had to be on the first train of the day I absolutely wouldn't do that, but I'd stay in a hotel the previous night. If I couldn't afford a hotel I wouldn't have chosen that flight. It's unrealistic to think that train or car will go so smoothly that no contingencies should be planned for, and it's unrealistic to book a flight and depend on a totally incident-free journey of two hours or more to the airport to catch it just in time.

But at least with car, you can set off earlier. I've been up and out of the door as early as 3 am to get one of the first flights of the day. There are loads of flights before 10.00 that you simply can't get the train for, because trains don't start early enough. Hence, people still use cars and taxis in huge numbers for those early flights.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to 'Realtime Trains', the only service out of Blackpool North to be cancelled yesterday was the hourly one to Manchester Victoria. The hourly service to Manchester Oxford Road and/or Manchester Airport apparently ran more or less as scheduled.

Sorry, a few journeys on Blackpool North to Oxford Road/Manchester Airport also missed yesterday, they were mainly in the evening, and I'd missed them.

So the 21 past cancelled and with the Summer Bash finished everyone crush loaded onto the 17 past to Leeds which was a single 150. I still stand by my Northern are a disgrace comment.

Indeed, things appear to have been considerably worse than I initially appreciated. They took a nosedive after 1900, when six of the last seven scheduled departures for Manchester were cancelled. The last Liverpool departure was also cancelled, the only Liverpool departure of the day to be affected. Actually, over the course of the day eleven departures for Manchester did operate, but out of a scheduled thirty, that isn't very many.

 

[sheff1]

They took a nosedive after 1900, when six of the last seven scheduled departures for Manchester were cancelled.

Which makes this

Always get the train before the one you need to get

an impossibilty.

 

[Matt_pool]

Cancellations yesterday and today due to a shortage of train conductors!

That the 19.56 and 20.56 from Lime Street to Man Oxford Road today.

Pathetic! Less than a week since the new timetable started and it's already gone tits up!

Northern are a joke. The sooner they lose the franchise the better!

 

[Matt_pool]

21.55 Liv to Oxford Rd now also showing as cancelled!

Grrrrrr!!!!!

 

[tomwills98]

All Blackpool to Manchester cancelled yesterday. My son and grandson went to Blackpool for the summer bash and said coming back was the trip from hell.

Northern running a 150 from Blackpool to Leeds which was standing only. Disgraceful how northern think running 150s on Blackpool to Leeds services is acceptable. I know some of the 158s are getting refurbs but why a 150 which has less capacity and luggage capacity.

The sooner Northern lose the franchise the better.

Probably all they had left, it's not like a model shop where you can pull a train out of the box and tell it to go. I don't think any control of any TOC looks forward to short forming a service but it's better than cancelling the service altogether.

 

[johnmoly]

Lets face it, Northern are up north. That's why they can get away with it as London based DFT couldn't give a toss. If it was down south they would be in all the national daily papers every day and the DFT would soon sort them out. My opinion.

 

[robbeech]

The cynical sod in me still looks at the following facts and wonders if there is any connection between them.

People buy tickets, and operators get money for this.
It's cheaper to run a 2 car train than a 4 car one.
People don't pay less to ride on a crush loaded 2 car train than a 4 car one.
A small fraction of people eligible for delay repay due to late running or cancellation of half the diagrams will actually claim it.
Those eligible who do claim will be entered into the magical random rejection generator and many will give up when their valid claim is rejected because "the train they intended to catch didn't exist".

 

[Llanigraham]

Cancellations yesterday and today due to a shortage of train conductors!

That the 19.56 and 20.56 from Lime Street to Man Oxford Road today.

Pathetic! Less than a week since the new timetable started and it's already gone tits up!

Northern are a joke. The sooner they lose the franchise the better!

And what difference do you think a change in operator will make?

A new operator will take on the current staff and if they have a mind to increase the number of staff they will have to be found and then trained; not a situation that takes days! Try thinking several months instead.
Plus they will have to be paid for, so I presume you are willing to pay higher fares to cover the new, extra staff?

And funnily enough a new timetable didn't bring extra staff with it, either.

 

[northernchris]

People don't pay less to ride on a crush loaded 2 car train than a 4 car one.

Whilst this is true, short formed trains can lead to increased dwell times which then causes late running and potential fines for the operators. I noticed today that many services were running to the Monday - Friday formations which is a welcome surprise. It doesn't excuse the shortage of traincrew though and Northern really need to be addressing this as a priority

 

[al78]

Well said, it's not about accepting a poor service it's about being an accountable adult.

This is a little oversimplistic. You have to decide how much padding to allow before your journey, and there is always a chance that the delay will be greater than the padding. You might say travel the day before, but if I have to allow a full day to do a journey across the country which should only take four hours plus or minus an hour, I might as well use a bicycle or a horse, what have we got motorised vehicles for?

 

[Aivilo]

Obviously you cannot reference it to every scenario but as a general rule getting a train before is perfectly acceptable and doable

 

[Whistler40145]

Unless Northern Drivers have Sunday as part of the working week, nothing will change anytime soon

 

[Killingworth]

Here we go, for starters on Hope Valley Line, 8.31 from Piccadilly to Sheffield cancelled (This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)) and return working at 10.17.

 

[fowler9]

Obviously you cannot reference it to every scenario but as a general rule getting a train before is perfectly acceptable and doable

It is kind of annoying to have to be in work an hour before your shift starts because the train is so unreliable. We already work the longest hours in Europe.

 

[Static65]

I agree with taking personal responsibility to make sure you account for possible delays, but in my case this just means that I can't use the railway to commute. In my last job there was a direct train into a major city, but it was only an hourly service and it arrived 50 minutes before the start of my shift. Taking an earlier train just in case would get me to work almost 2 hours early, therefore I just didn't use it. I have since moved to a new job in another major northern city and have exactly the same issue again. There must be routes all over the network that people would use and fund if there were enough services to allow for contingency planning, which wouldn't make it's such an issue if a service has to be cancelled, but whilst ever services are so infrequent, cancelling causes major issues and so passengers either get increasingly more frustrated or just stay away and nothing much seems to improve.