Alstom Class 321 Hydrogen 'Breeze' Updates & Discussion

[big all]

i quite like the multi colour
a wee bit busy but ok ??
orange or crimson red rather than lime green but no problem really
i actually love lime green but it needs a black or similar to ballance it out

 

[JonathanH]

Only 321448 got the multicolour seats. 321301-321330 have grey pattern seats.

 

[MatthewRead]

I thought that but the 321 Renatus project shows you can polish a turd. It's just up to the ROSCO and TOC to pull their finger and actually modernise the units for the 21st century. (i.e. air con, LED lighting, seats at right height, USB/charging sockets etc). Too many are too stingy.

Below is a 319 as is and a refurbished 321 "Renatus" - both were introduced in the same period. The transformation is remarkable when the effort is put in.

The one below is actually the 321 demonstrator which led to the Renatus program.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought that but the 321 Renatus project shows you can polish a turd. It's just up to the ROSCO and TOC to pull their finger and actually modernise the units for the 21st century. (i.e. air con, LED lighting, seats at right height, USB/charging sockets etc). Too many are too stingy.

Below is a 319 as is and a refurbished 321 "Renatus" - both were introduced in the same period. The transformation is remarkable when the effort is put in.

Out of those two images, the one of the 319 is the more appealing to me...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of those two images, the one of the 319 is the more appealing to me...

They're both rubbish.

This is a Class 319. Nicest things LNR run, though there are only two of them in the fleet. Excellent legroom at all seats:

Brighton Express Class 319 interior - 2+2 with Chapman seating

This is also quite acceptable:

Thameslink Cityflyer Class 319 interior with LM green moquette - 2+2 with Ashbourne seating

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, the green seats version is definitely better looking. Never liked the 319/2s as per your upper picture - a lot less comfortable, although the much higher proportion of airline seating is a feature I liked on them.

However, what seats would the hydrogen powered 321s be likely to have, realistically? The type known as ironing boards, I suspect?

 

[xotGD]

How come a thread discussing hydrogen fuelled trains ends up with the inevitable seat wibble?

I look forward to hydrogen units turning up in northern land.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the green seats version is definitely better looking. Never liked the 319/2s as per your upper picture - a lot less comfortable, although the much higher proportion of airline seating is a feature I liked on them.

However, what seats would the hydrogen powered 321s be likely to have, realistically? The type known as ironing boards, I suspect?

Depends on what is specified. If it's done on the cheap it will no doubt keep the original Ashbourne seating.

 

[samuelmorris]

50m of usable train in a 60m format is a curious outcome - nowhere is bimode mentioned so I presume the AC gear is going away to save weight. It would seem wasteful to take the traction motors away as well, but who knows, maybe they'll end up with one driving vehicle becoming the power car instead as a result?

I would argue the 321s are still in a satisfactory state to be converted to something like this and used for another 10-15 years and welcome the idea. How practical it'll be in practice though I'm not sure.

 

[big all]

How come a thread discussing hydrogen fuelled trains ends up with the inevitable seat wibble?

I look forward to hydrogen units turning up in northern land.

if i caused the issue i appologize
but purely coincidental as i as far as i can remember have never commented on seats before never mind how comfortable they are

 

[samuelmorris]

Using the original units instead of Renatus probably makes sense, there are all sorts of iffy wiring issues and changes to the original spec that have been carried out on the Renatus units. Starting over but learning from the mistakes of the previous project is probably a good idea, especially when there are so many other unmodified units imminently available to work with - given the looming PRM deadline, they'll probably be available much earlier than the Renatus sets too. To be in with a chance of getting a unit in service by the end of 2022 (given there still aren't any 769s in revenue earning service yet, 25 months after the project's announcement) they'll have to get hold of them as soon as possible.

I note at least one 769 is also due to be Hydrogen converted. It will be interesting to see what differences there are between the two ROSCOs' approaches.

 

[td97]

Rather buoyant remarks from Alstom today regarding their hydrogen product:

“A total of 41 hydrogen trains will be in service by 2021.”
“Hydrogen is the ideal fuel for regional trains.”
“One fleet of 10 trains would require three tonnes of hydrogen per day. We can easily plan for demand, making the commercial case easier to make.”

The North West Hydrogen Alliance event has focussed on the scope of hydrogen-powered transport in the North West region. There's some other threads published today on their profile from other guest speakers.

They've also put out a Tweet saying

On display for the first time in the #NorthWest @AlstomUK Breeze train to be converted in Widnes #h2nw

but it looks suspiciously downsized to me

 

[jon0844]

Not good as people are generally getting bigger.

 

[samuelmorris]

Rather buoyant remarks from Alstom today regarding their hydrogen product:


The North West Hydrogen Alliance event has focussed on the scope of hydrogen-powered transport in the North West region. There's some other threads published today on their profile from other guest speakers.

They've also put out a Tweet saying

but it looks suspiciously downsized to me

41 is an oddly specific figure - have we established where that came from? I'll also be stunned if these are all ready by even the very end of 2021, given the 769s still haven't even entered service yet and it's been well over 2 years since the first 319s came off-lease for conversion. I'm not expecting a single 321 to be withdrawn from GA (which I believe is what they're using for this?) until Christmas at the earliest. They reckon they can get 41 units with more complex hydrogen technology into service quicker than it's taken Porterbrook to roll out a single unit with just diesel power? If I were a betting man, I'd say 2023 seems more likely, assuming the project even succeeds at all...

 

[Teithiwr]

As I understand, the figure of 41 hydrogen trains by 2021 relates to the iLint product operating in Germany.

In relation to the hydrogen version of the 321, its likely to take until at least 2022 to get the certification and approvals sorted.

 

[samuelmorris]

As I understand, the figure of 41 hydrogen trains by 2021 relates to the iLint product operating in Germany.

In relation to the hydrogen version of the 321, its likely to take until at least 2022 to get the certification and approvals sorted.

Ah of course, 41 hydrogen trains in total, not 41 of the one they're showing off. Yes, that's what it'll be.

 

[td97]

As I understand, the figure of 41 hydrogen trains by 2021 relates to the iLint product operating in Germany.

Yes that could also be implied. Difficult to tell without being there.
Their last press release stated

These trains could run across the UK as early as 2022, emitting only water and no harmful emissions at all.

which seems a bit more realistic

 

[xotGD]

First proposed hydrogen 321 deployment will be in the Tees Valley. 10 units required. Protected entry into passenger service is December 2022.

Next up should be Scotland.

Information obtained from presentations delivered by Alston and Eversholt.

 

[jw]

There is also to be a trial in the new East Midlands franchise.

 

[xotGD]

There is also to be a trial in the new East Midlands franchise.

Do you know if these will be Alstom units or another manufacturer?

 

[jw]

Do you know if these will be Alstom units or another manufacturer?

Other than the very general announcements regarding new bi-mode intercity trains, more modern regional stock and hydrogen trial, we're yet to see any specifics at all.

Other than Alstom, I believe only Vivarail have indicated the possibility of hydrogen conversions.

 

[hwl]

Other than the very general announcements regarding new bi-mode intercity trains, more modern regional stock and hydrogen trial, we're yet to see any specifics at all.

Other than Alstom, I believe only Vivarail have indicated the possibility of hydrogen conversions.

Porterbrook have 799001 which is 319001 getting the 769 treatment but with fuel cells instead of diesel engines.

 

[ashkeba]

Looking at the image from the article again, it actually looks like they will be installed on top of the roof rather than in it, alleviating the potential structural issues that come from cutting it away (although Eversholt have previous with that from the Renatus 321s with their air con modules)

Speaking of which, given the R321s have notoriously poor air con in hit weathrr, is the "Breeze" name likely to come back to haunt them?

 

[samuelmorris]

Speaking of which, given the R321s have notoriously poor air con in hit weathrr, is the "Breeze" name likely to come back to haunt them?

Given the refurb is being carried out by a different ROSCO it may well be a different A/C system used, if one is even fitted at all.

 

[JonathanH]

Some progress on this today including a class number - 600

Eversholt Rail and Alstom invest a further £1 million in Breeze hydrogen train programme

Widnes, 22 July 2020 - Eversholt Rail and Alstom today announce a bold plan to fast-track the hydrogen train industry in the UK with a further £1 million (over €1 million) investment in British h

www.alstom.com

Eversholt Rail and Alstom invest a further £1 million in Breeze hydrogen train programme


Widnes, 22 July 2020 - Eversholt Rail and Alstom today announce a bold plan to fast-track the hydrogen train industry in the UK with a further £1 million (over €1 million) investment in British hydrogen trains, creating an entirely new class of train, the first-ever 600 series.

Taking the Breeze hydrogen train plan to the next level, this major investment means that the Breeze will be ready for early deployment in the UK to meet the Government’s need to decarbonise the rail industry. This investment from Alstom and Eversholt Rail in the UK hydrogen train will underpin other initiatives in the hydrogen sector and will support any subsequent national hydrogen strategy.

Breeze trains will be built at Alstom’s Widnes Transport Technology Centre, which is fast becoming the UK’s premier centre for train modernisation. Widnes will also become Alstom’s worldwide centre of excellence for hydrogen conversion when this project is in series production, creating over 200 high quality engineering jobs in the North West, crucial for the Prime Minister’s levelling-up agenda.

When powered by green hydrogen, these trains offer true zero-emission mobility, not just zero emission at point of use. The only emission from a hydrogen train is water; it produces no harmful particulate or gaseous emissions.

Hydrogen trains are ideally suited to regional rail services on routes that are not currently electrified. Alstom has already proven that hydrogen trains are a cost-effective and environmentally friendly solution with the success of the Coradia iLint in Germany. This new investment will ensure that Breeze trains are ready for swift deployment in the UK wherever electrification with overhead wires might be impractical or visually intrusive.

The pioneering of a hydrogen train fleet is a notable step in the path towards decarbonising the UK railway. As Breeze will be the first UK train fleet to use the Class 6xx category, it will bear the classification ‘600’. Both Eversholt Rail and Alstom are delighted with this recognition.

“It’s time to jump-start the UK hydrogen revolution. With the Government looking to invest in green technologies, Alstom and Eversholt Rail have deepened our already extensive commitment to this job-creating technology with a further million-pound investment. This bold move to back the Government’s ambitions on hydrogen means we are the only game in town if you want a shovel ready British hydrogen train. The Breeze is good to go, wherever the Government commits to upgrading Britain’s railway with hydrogen trains,” said Nick Crossfield, Managing Director, UK & Ireland

Mary Kenny, CEO of Eversholt Rail, said “Eversholt Rail has a proud record of innovation in key rolling stock technologies and this further investment in the Breeze programme demonstrates our commitment to providing timely, cost-effective solutions to the identified need for hydrogen trains to support the decarbonisation of the UK railway”.

About Eversholt Rail
Eversholt Rail owns UK passenger and freight rolling stock and has more than 25 years’ experience in the rail industry. Eversholt Rail has invested more than £3bn in new trains since privatisation and continually invests in existing fleets to maintain quality and reliability to deliver a better passenger experience. Eversholt Rail has a proud history of innovation and plays an integral role in the growth and modernisation of the UK rail sector by introducing new products and technologies into the market.

About the Breeze train
Breeze is a train powered by hydrogen. It brings hydrogen train technology, proven in passenger service on Alstom’s Coradia iLint trains in Germany, to the UK. To make it, Alstom will rebuild Eversholt Rail’s Class 321 electric trains to use hydrogen power. Alstom will do the work at our Widnes facility in the Liverpool City Region. First fleet production would create more than 200 jobs. When more trains are ordered, this number would grow. The Breeze hydrogen trains will be replacements for the UK’s regional diesels that operate across the country and the first trains could be in service in 2024.

About the Class 600
All UK trains have a class number, made of three digits, with the first of the three digits explaining the type of train it is. The Breeze is the first ever hydrogen train for the UK, which requires a new ‘class’, beginning with a 6. The 600 series will be reserved for alternative traction like hydrogen, and as the Breeze is the first of this type, it will have the first number, 600.

 

[samuelmorris]

Some progress on this today including a class number - 600

Eversholt Rail and Alstom invest a further £1 million in Breeze hydrogen train programme

Widnes, 22 July 2020 - Eversholt Rail and Alstom today announce a bold plan to fast-track the hydrogen train industry in the UK with a further £1 million (over €1 million) investment in British h

www.alstom.com

Progress? As far as I can tell, it's just "we're spending another £1m on this" which is peanuts...

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think they missed a trick by not calling it either 621, 642 or 666

 

[xotGD]

Nice to see this project progressing. I look forward to seeing them in service in the Tees Valley.

(If they'd designated it as Class 606 it would have had its own radio show!)

 

[43096]

(If they'd designated it as Class 606 it would have had its own radio show!)

As long as David Mellor isn't involved!

 

[samuelmorris]

I think they missed a trick by not calling it either 621, 642 or 666

Let's at least have one class in that number range before we corrupt it eh?