ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[scotrail158713]

So as of Friday 15th June 2019,

Have you discovered how to work time travel?

 

[EE Andy b1]

Have you discovered how to work time travel?

Yes I have a Tardis.

Can't remember if I ment it to be Fri 14th or Sat 15th now!!

 

[DannyMich2018]

So as of Friday 15th June 2019, where exactly are we with 7 Cites HST sets?

How many full refurbished sets are working passenger services not just for training?

How is Kilmarnock getting on with refurbishment? Have any Mk3 vehicles emerged from there yet and is it going any better than at Doncaster.

I might have missed some of this info in previous posts but all lost in the other stuff.

I'm afraid it's not a pretty sight. Only five refurbs have been done out of 26 and probably only 3 are in passenger service at one time. As far as is known not a lot-maybe 8 coaches or so have gone to Kilmarnock and don't expect them out anytime soon. I cannot see any more than 10 refurbs been completed by end of this year and I wouldn't even want to guess how long it will take to do all 26.... The "Classic HSTs" are still in use but there is not a lot used in daily service with frequent cancellations and substitutions by other trains. There is supposed to be about 15 diagrammed (refurbs and "Classics") daily at the minute but think this rarely the case. If you look at various post on this thread you'll understand what a mess it all is!!

 

[InvHst]

I'm afraid it's not a pretty sight. Only five refurbs have been done out of 26 and probably only 3 are in passenger service at one time. As far as is known not a lot-maybe 8 coaches or so have gone to Kilmarnock and don't expect them out anytime soon. I cannot see any more than 10 refurbs been completed by end of this year and I wouldn't even want to guess how long it will take to do all 26.... The "Classic HSTs" are still in use but there is not a lot used in daily service with frequent cancellations and substitutions by other trains. There is supposed to be about 15 diagrammed (refurbs and "Classics") daily at the minute but think this rarely the case. If you look at various post on this thread you'll understand what a mess it all is!!

Scotrail did quote 15 diagrams when all well and good however due to current line closure between Inverness and aberdeen this is down to 11 and may change again when line shuts to huntly instead of Inverurie but when line reopens on August 19th we should gain more diagrams again

 

[takno]

I'm afraid it's not a pretty sight. Only five refurbs have been done out of 26 and probably only 3 are in passenger service at one time. As far as is known not a lot-maybe 8 coaches or so have gone to Kilmarnock and don't expect them out anytime soon. I cannot see any more than 10 refurbs been completed by end of this year and I wouldn't even want to guess how long it will take to do all 26.... The "Classic HSTs" are still in use but there is not a lot used in daily service with frequent cancellations and substitutions by other trains. There is supposed to be about 15 diagrammed (refurbs and "Classics") daily at the minute but think this rarely the case. If you look at various post on this thread you'll understand what a mess it all is!!

Cheery as this assessment is, it would be nice to know if you have even the loosest reasons to believe that beyond this thread? By suggesting 10 units by the end of the year you are basically suggesting that the work rate at Doncaster will slow down, and nothing will come out of Kilmarnock at all, which seems beyond improbable however naturally cynical you are

 

[Highland37]

I don't think he is suggesting that. Five (or is it six?), sets have been delivered by half way through the six month of the year and are in very limited service. I dropped off my partner today to get the train south. It was a 170, no reservations and a bit dirty. If you had to put money on a service, bet on it being a 170 as the HSTs are few and far between and not that reliable.

 

[Highlandspring]

I don't think he is suggesting that. Five (or is it six?), sets have been delivered by half way through the six month of the year and are in very limited service. I dropped off my partner today to get the train south. It was a 170, no reservations and a bit dirty. If you had to put money on a service, bet on it being a 170 as the HSTs are few and far between and not that reliable.

The picture you paint in this post is not what I see every day.

 

[Steven_G]

Does anyone know how far along the list of reliability fixes to the power cars Scotrail are? I am sure once these are complete the service will improve.

Also with 5 refurb sets dotted about training can be executed at all relevant depots when it restarts.

Poor start but....6 months down the line...I see the corner turning.

Just waiting on news about set 6?

 

[Highland37]

The picture you paint in this post is not what I see every day.

What do you see every day? On average, every day, what percentage of the classic and refurbished fleet is in use?

What's the unit to HST split on the HML every day?

 

[Maxfly]

A thought on the reliability fixes, they obviously should have been done from the outset but I wonder if this could be the 'compensation' for the very late delivery? As I don't think there was mention of anything of that ilk happening till the project was seriously overrunning.
That makes me think Wabtec may have said we will pay for the reliability mods as recompense, or the compensation given pays the cost of the work. It is good that they are doing it but I would have thought it better to have been included from outset, bean counters involved I suppose.

 

[Goldromans]

Also with 5 refurb sets dotted about training can be executed at all relevant depots when it restarts.

Conversion training to refurb sets is still ongoing for staff already trained on the classic sets. However staff that have yet to receive any HST training at all won't do so until after summer.

 

[jingsmonty]

The attitude you display is exactly the problem. It is not good enough to herd passengers on a much smaller train like cattle. If the train broke down fine as you say that happens. If another train could not be found to assist the passengers in getting up to Inverness then replacement buses should have been organised. It is not as if it is the first time that replacement buses have been needed.

Doing nothing is simply not acceptable. it shows the low regard passengers are held. I arrived in Perth form Glasgow one winters day to an announcement this train is terminating here please take your stuff and bugger off. Not good enough no one to answer any questions just a shambles.

This is symptomatic of a rail way that has lost the focus on the importance of fare paying passengers.

Spot on

 

[jingsmonty]

A thought on the reliability fixes, they obviously should have been done from the outset but I wonder if this could be the 'compensation' for the very late delivery? As I don't think there was mention of anything of that ilk happening till the project was seriously overrunning.
That makes me think Wabtec may have said we will pay for the reliability mods as recompense, or the compensation given pays the cost of the work. It is good that they are doing it but I would have thought it better to have been included from outset, bean counters involved I suppose.

Wabtec are only refurbishing the trailers, I believe - Brush are refurbishing the Power Cars (at Loughborough, I think)

 

[jingsmonty]

Suggest you have a read of my previous posts on here about poor customer service on the railway before you start about attitude.

I’d also love to know where you find a load of buses/coaches at 7pm on a Sunday night in Perth.

This isn't really relevant to this thread, but I'd think that terminating at Edinburgh would have been a better option, organising buses from there. The trouble with 'marginal working' (i.e., using layover time to extend workings) is there is very little redundancy if things go wrong. Even a power car swap at Waverley might have been an idea (although, I realise that's not that practical, as it would have caused a horrendous delay). Eaiser to find replacement transport too. I'd assume LNER have contingency plans in place for such occurrances?

If the set had been terminated at Waverley, it could have been moved to Craigentinny for attention. What happened to the set after it arrived at Perth? ECS to Craigentinny? Or did it run to Inverness, in the hope of fixing the fault for the next day? I have heard of LNER fitters travelling up to fix faults before...

 

[jingsmonty]

Given that the Chieftain shows as “cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment” at Perth - so a failure rather than planned - what’s your solution for that? I really don’t see how that is disdain towards passengers - it’s one of those things that happens sometimes.

This all depends on whether the failure was expected or not. If it wasn't, then I agree with you. If it was, I don't!

Anyway, this whole LNER discussion isn't very relevant to this thread!

 

[Maxfly]

Wabtec are only refurbishing the trailers, I believe - Brush are refurbishing the Power Cars (at Loughborough, I think)

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. I know that Wabtec are only doing the trailers but meant as they (Wabtec) appear to at least be partly to blame for the late delivery of the HST's, might they have said as compensation they would pay for the reliability mods to be carried out (by Brush) or the possible monetary compensation has been used to facilitate this.

 

[Highland37]

At least partly? Surely wholly to blame?

They might have said that, but I don't think they will have. They must be sick of this by now given the continual negative press they are getting, which is well deserved in my opinion.

My heavily pregnant partner will be coming home to Inverness tomorrow. Will it be a packed 170 or an HST? No one knows until you turn up at the platform...

 

[Geoff DC]

Looking at this from a far west perspective, the introduction of HST GTI's on GWR services with a mix of classic 4car HST sets, seems to have been achieved with minimal fuss or disruption.
It would seem that lack of experience at all operational levels could be the main issue rather than the sets themselves.
So all things being equal as expertise evolves - problems should ease & the Scotrail should achieve the same reliability as GWR ??

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at this from a far west perspective, the introduction of HST GTI's on GWR services with a mix of classic 4car HST sets, seems to have been achieved with minimal fuss or disruption.
It would seem that lack of experience at all operational levels could be the main issue rather than the sets themselves.
So all things being equal as expertise evolves - problems should ease & the Scotrail should achieve the same reliability as GWR ??

Arguably it should, it's been said that the HSTs were rather am unknown quantity as it were for ScotRail in some respects, but hopefully - hopefully once they've settled into service properly we'll see improved reliability as maintenance teams get used to all their quirks, eccentricities and what have you.

 

[Highlandspring]

A seagull somehow got on refurbished set HA26 at Aberdeen today and travelled to Montrose. He enjoyed it so much he left many tokens of his appreciation in the coach...

 

[47271]

What do you see every day? On average, every day, what percentage of the classic and refurbished fleet is in use?

What's the unit to HST split on the HML every day?

From personal experience just now I'd say around a quarter of HML services are running as classic HSTs, but I only see what I see, I don't claim any statistical validity.

I've mentioned tables before, so apologies for banging on about it, but the last two times I've got on Scotrail HSTs I've ended up upgrading to First Class because the situation with tables in Standard has been so bad. I'd sooner pay an extra £15 than traipse up and down a crowded train looking for somewhere to get my laptop out. This is very much my personal thing, but the layout and ambience of these awful GWR Standard coaches is so bad that I'd sooner a 170 turns up.

Like everyone else, I'm totally fed up with this shambles.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I noticed down the back of the Inverness maintenance depot there's a full refurb set but it also looks like there's three unrefurbished coaches on their own with no power cars, anyone know what's up with them?

I was going to say I've barely seen any HST's in the station at Inverness but of course after thinking that there was one there today.

 

[InvHst]

From personal experience just now I'd say around a quarter of HML services are running as classic HSTs, but I only see what I see, I don't claim any statistical validity.

I've mentioned tables before, so apologies for banging on about it, but the last two times I've got on Scotrail HSTs I've ended up upgrading to First Class because the situation with tables in Standard has been so bad. I'd sooner pay an extra £15 than traipse up and down a crowded train looking for somewhere to get my laptop out. This is very much my personal thing, but the layout and ambience of these awful GWR Standard coaches is so bad that I'd sooner a 170 turns up.

Like everyone else, I'm totally fed up with this shambles.

A quarter??? Jesus don't know what you see but there is only 4 services a day Monday to Friday which are meant to be classic HST
0845 inverness to queen Street
0707 queen Street to Inverness
1508 queen Street to Inverness
1854 Inverness to Edinburgh

That's a woeful amount....... Would hate to work the percentage out

 

[InvHst]

A quarter??? Jesus don't know what you see but there is only 4 services a day Monday to Friday which are meant to be classic HST
0845 inverness to queen Street
0707 queen Street to Inverness
1508 queen Street to Inverness
1854 Inverness to Edinburgh

That's a woeful amount....... Would hate to work the percentage out

19% for those interested so not far off a quarter granted but still should be more

 

[hexagon789]

A seagull somehow got on refurbished set HA26 at Aberdeen today and travelled to Montrose. He enjoyed it so much he left many tokens of his appreciation in the coach...

Nasty. I'm guessing they locked the coach out?

 

[BRX]

This isn't really relevant to this thread, but I'd think that terminating at Edinburgh would have been a better option, organising buses from there. The trouble with 'marginal working' (i.e., using layover time to extend workings) is there is very little redundancy if things go wrong. Even a power car swap at Waverley might have been an idea (although, I realise that's not that practical, as it would have caused a horrendous delay). Eaiser to find replacement transport too. I'd assume LNER have contingency plans in place for such occurrances?

If the set had been terminated at Waverley, it could have been moved to Craigentinny for attention. What happened to the set after it arrived at Perth? ECS to Craigentinny? Or did it run to Inverness, in the hope of fixing the fault for the next day? I have heard of LNER fitters travelling up to fix faults before...

Can you explain a bit more what 'marginal working' means?

 

[47271]

19% for those interested so not far off a quarter granted but still should be more

I'll go with 19%, which is woeful I agree, and I should've said that I'm including ones that I see going by as well as those I travel on.

Mind you, for my purposes I'd sooner travel on a 170 with a bit of space than a unrefurbed HST, but neither option is at all what we should have by now.

 

[43096]

Can you explain a bit more what 'marginal working' means?

It’s often known as ‘marginal time’. Essentially it is the use of time in diagrams at the beginning and/or end of the day that would otherwise be unused to extend services beyond their normal point. The Chieftain is a classic case: when it was first introduced it used a set that would otherwise finish at Edinburgh at around 1630 to extend to Inverness. Likewise the southbound makes productive use of a set that would otherwise be sat at Craigentinny until 1100ish.

 

[Maxfly]

At least partly? Surely wholly to blame?

They might have said that, but I don't think they will have. They must be sick of this by now given the continual negative press they are getting, which is well deserved in my opinion.

My heavily pregnant partner will be coming home to Inverness tomorrow. Will it be a packed 170 or an HST? No one knows until you turn up at the platform...

Could well be wholly to blame but purely blaming Wabtec is the easy option, there will be many many factors in a project this size that can cause delays.....are they all down to Wabtec? I don’t know so can’t say one way or another.

Unfortunately as a whole, the railway rarely appears to get big projects like this in to service, trouble free. Be that new or refurbished stock.

 

[Bassman]

I noticed down the back of the Inverness maintenance depot there's a full refurb set but it also looks like there's three unrefurbished coaches on their own with no power cars, anyone know what's up with them?

I was going to say I've barely seen any HST's in the station at Inverness but of course after thinking that there was one there today.

Travelled from Waverley to Inverness last night. Noticed the 19.34 Aberdeen service was a refurbished set. The Inter7city vinyl panels on the refurbished set showing the dirt, and surprised door of the First class coach made permanently sealed near to coach B.

Awaited the 19.39 Edinburgh to Inverness service, which arrived late and was classic HST. I had seat allocated in coach B , both doors of this coach were sealed closed as unserviceable. All passengers entered by coach A or coach C, to Coach B which was in complete darkness and had old reservation tickets. Enjoyed the smoother and more comfortable ride north as the the train tried to regain time. Most of us moved to other coaches as darkness fell. One girl was unable to exit the doors of coach C, and called out to other passengers at Dunkeld, but it was too late before the service moved on and she was dropped off at Pitlochry, with advice about getting a south bound service.

Interesting arriving in Inverness passing a set of new sleeper coaches in the storage yards, two HST sets in the storage yards and then backing up on another classic set on Platform 2, with the Chieftain HST on Platform 1 - Altogether making five HST sets at Inverness last night.