Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[A330Alex]

It's taken so long for many reasons.

1 - the company wanted to keep the system familiar for current drivers so had to have close talks with the manufacturer.

2 - during tests, the built in payment pad was found to not be as responsive as we would have liked so we had to trial alternatives. Including whole new machines. Then we settled for seperate pads but Wayfrarer machines, a bit of work too.

3 - we had to find a phone network that would consistently work across the Lothians and Edinburgh. Tricky with all the tight roads, high buildings and the materials used in the buildings - seriously, that much effort went into this.

4 - Product creation. We had to create new ticketing products which involved research etc.

5 - purchasing for over 800 vehicles.

6 - training

7 - install

8 - roll out.

Its tricky.

I appreciate the insight! Out of interest, do you know how it might work with different zones? I've been scratching my head at how they're going to implement the Airport zone on Skylink and CityWest on the 43 without making it a hassle.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I appreciate that it's a hard task to get it all implemented, However the time it's taken Lothian Buses is rather a bit of a joke, it should be implemented and fully up and running by now. It does strike me as odd as normally Lothian are on the ball with these sorts of things, but in this case they're more toddling towards a ball that's rolling down a hill.

 

[Fryschocream]

You don't understand the complexities of the software and the fact that once you start mixing products (i.e. exchanging capping for group products etc.) You enter a whole new ball game as you then become a retailer and there are vast amounts of legislation to then comply and get agreements for.

 

[overthewater]

Yet Stagecoach and First ( who are not in the best shape ) have managed to make all their buses contactless in a faster time.... Even then Stagecoach has kept the same type of machines.

 

[Jordan Adam]

You don't understand the complexities of the software and the fact that once you start mixing products (i.e. exchanging capping for group products etc.) You enter a whole new ball game as you then become a retailer and there are vast amounts of legislation to then comply and get agreements for.

I do understand it, and that doesn't at all change my view that it's taken far too long. Pretty much every other major operator has it fully implemented, up and running now. Lothian have lagged massively behind and there's no doubt about it imo.

Yet Stagecoach and First ( who are not in the best shape ) have managed to make all their buses contactless in a faster time.... Even then Stagecoach has kept the same type of machines.

Exactly! I think National Xpress, Go-Ahead and Arriva have it UK wide now too?

 

[Fryschocream]

Stagecoach and first don't operate capping. NX don't offer anything other than capping. Keep up....We'll be the first to do both.

 

[overthewater]

Both companies would just tell the public, buy the daily tickets. Much simpler..

 

[Jordan Adam]

Lothian (and it's employees on this forum...) can make any excuses they want, it's 2019 contactless should be here by now. It's pretty evident from their social media that it's what the travelling public who pay their wages are wanting the most too.

 

[Fryschocream]

Really? That's not your original line. I thought you wanted an oyster style system? Of course you'll be aware of all the banking regulations that surround contactless and how a company operates to those rules?

 

[Fryschocream]

Employee? How do you know I'm not top of the tree?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Really? That's not your original line. I thought you wanted an oyster style system? Of course you'll be aware of all the banking regulations that surround contactless and how a company operates to those rules?

Most passengers would like a Oyster style system, but there's a difference between want and like. And it's quite clear they just want to be able to pay with their contactless cards without having to carry exact fare.

Employee? How do you know I'm not top of the tree?

"Employee" wasn't directed at you but more a general thing. Otherwise i would have quoted you.

 

[Fryschocream]

But imagine being able to do it all. It'll be worth waiting for.

 

[overthewater]

Why not get contactless in and then work your way to capping? I'm sure Sestran would rather like an area like agreement.

 

[Fryschocream]

Who's paying for that? Don't see anybody else funding this roll out.

 

[overthewater]

Everyone has paid there own way to get contactless on their services. Capping is different kettle of fish and could have got goverment grant.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Why not get contactless in and then work your way to capping? I'm sure Sestran would rather like an area like agreement.

It may sound attractive to offer contactless as a fallback option for passengers who don't hold passes and haven't been able to prepare the exact fare, especially in a town that attracts a lot of tourists who either won't carry loose change or aren't able to tell one coin from another. That's probably why its use is allowed on Airlink.

But maybe a danger is that too many passengers will just use contactless as an alternative to buying a ticket with cash. This might delay the boarding process if it became too convenient. Obviously operators that already offer change or have laborious ticket negotiations between passenger and driver (like Stagecoach or First) may find contactless payments quicker than dropping prepared coins into a hopper.

I don't have an axe to grind either way - it's just a thought.

 

[Fryschocream]

Government grant? No danger. You would then need a framework to distribute revenue which incur further costs for admin. There's a reason TfL want rid of oyster and the dutch are ditching ov-chipkaart

 

[Jordan Adam]

It may sound attractive to offer contactless as a fallback option for passengers who don't hold passes and haven't been able to prepare the exact fare, especially in a town that attracts a lot of tourists who either won't carry loose change or aren't able to tell one coin from another. That's probably why its use is allowed on Airlink.

But maybe a danger is that too many passengers will just use contactless as an alternative to buying a ticket with cash. This might delay the boarding process if it became too convenient. Obviously operators that already offer change or have laborious ticket negotiations between passenger and driver (like Stagecoach or First) may find contactless payments quicker than dropping prepared coins into a hopper.

I don't have an axe to grind either way - it's just a thought.

From personal experience paying with contactless takes about the same time as putting coins down the hopper. By far the longest method is operators who give change, although this is somewhat a necessity on longer rural routes where a single fare can verge closer to the £10 mark. For city routes the best would be a tap in / tap out system, however this is quite difficult to implement and could present security issues. Even if Lothian are wanting to offer a Oyster-esque system they should've brought contactless in and then worked on a Oyster system to eventually work alongside it (or even replace it). None of the excuses listed in the thread so far convince me that it's "Worth the wait".

 

[Fryschocream]

And that's why you're not running a bus company Jordan. Software...licensing costs...cost of actual implementation...cost of actually processing cards etc....etc. If it was that easy it would have been done. I could go in to the relative merits of each manufacturers machines and associated costs for upgrades on the basis you suggest but that would be improper in a competitive marketplace.

 

[Jordan Adam]

That's nice, but it still doesn't convince me it's "worth the wait". It's all a matter of opinion really and i disagree with you.

 

[ScotRail158725]

There are a couple of others also out today.
718 on the 23.
716 on the 34.

Wonder why there are some out? Not like they’re short of vehicles

 

[OmniCity999]

First and Stagecoach are national companies. They buy in bulk. The majority of their operating area's use the same ticketing unit, so they can buy large quantities. It's also the same software on every single unit, it's a plug and play affair, any updates can be done and every unit can be updated wirelessly and quickly.

What's also different about Lothian is the ticketing system is on a completely separate wireless network, meaning there's now three networks on every bus (ticketing, WiFi 1 and WiFi 2), this has taken time to install and test too. having a separate network allows everything to be standalone meaning if theres an issue with WiFi, the ticketing network is still up and vice versa.

Lothian wanted to be sure they had the right product. Re-Coverage etc. We don't want to be at a point where we're turning people away because the ticket machines cant get a signal, it has to be perfect from day one.

if you've used one of the contactless units on Skylin, Airlink, ECB or LCB you'll notice that transactions are very close. Alot of time has been spent on making it quicker, making the whole system seamless, right down to fare caping etc.

If people arent happy, they can goto their councillor and complain however, contactless payments arent a human right, they are not imminently required. The services where they are most likely to need them, Air/Skylink (tourists) ECB/LCB (to win over or keep customers), EBB (not so much contactless, but card payments) (tourists again) already have them and have been used as a testbed for the entire fleet.

When it arrives, it will be perfect, because all the tests have been done and all the possibilities have been tried. The company even had to hire in specialists and create a new department for ongoing maintenance and use, its taken time for a reason.

Costs have been kept down by using a familiar system for drivers, so training costs are down. The only cost is infrastructure, and its a big one.

Not to mention the data base buying built. Their building a database in a room at one of the depots i believe which will be the brain of the system.

 

[Siemens Trains]

For city routes the best would be a tap in / tap out system, however this is quite difficult to implement and could present security issues.

Just as a matter of interest, does any bus company apply a 'tap out' system? How does this work if the kit is on a vehicle rather than a barriered bus station exit? Are passengers charged the maximum fare if they leave the bus forgetting to tap out? Or is there a member of staff to ensure passengers don't leave the bus until they've tapped their card so the right fare is charged? Like a bus conductor perhaps.

 

[OmniCity999]

Just as a matter of interest, does any bus company apply a 'tap out' system? How does this work if the kit is on a vehicle rather than a barriered bus station exit? Are passengers charged the maximum fare if they leave the bus forgetting to tap out? Or is there a member of staff to ensure passengers don't leave the bus until they've tapped their card so the right fare is charged? Like a bus conductor perhaps.

Believe thats how it works in London? you tap in as you enter and tap out as you leave, could be wrong though.

The way Lothian intend to do it is by "tapping ins" coming from sales, and the computers do the work.

 

[A330Alex]

Believe thats how it works in London? you tap in as you enter and tap out as you leave, could be wrong though.

The way Lothian intend to do it is by "tapping ins" coming from sales, and the computers do the work.

Just as a matter of interest, does any bus company apply a 'tap out' system? How does this work if the kit is on a vehicle rather than a barriered bus station exit? Are passengers charged the maximum fare if they leave the bus forgetting to tap out? Or is there a member of staff to ensure passengers don't leave the bus until they've tapped their card so the right fare is charged? Like a bus conductor perhaps.

London has a flat fare so it's just a tap in. From having a look it seems just Transdev have tap outs (I imagine that must slow down alighting a good bit if multiple people are using contactless)

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'd suspect seeing as the "Lothian Buses" network operates a single fare there would be no need to "tap out". Logically each time someone "tapped in" they'd be charged the single fare, this would continue until the user goes above the price of a day ticket, at which point they'd only be charged the equivalent of a day ticket for that day. I'm pretty sure this is what happens with the Oyster system in London.

I should have noted prior that First are also currently working on capping for contactless payments, and have offered contactless UK wide for over a year now. So again using capping as an excuse for not implementing contactless already isn't really a good enough excuse.

 

[GusB]

Lothian wanted to be sure they had the right product. Re-Coverage etc. We don't want to be at a point where we're turning people away because the ticket machines cant get a signal, it has to be perfect from day one.

It's interesting that you mention not being able to get a signal. At the end of last month I spent a few days in Edinburgh, and it was the first time I'd been to the city in well over 10 years. I was staying in Leith, and it was a struggle to get a signal for data in the Leith area on 3, which is my main phone provider. I have a dual-SIM phone and I keep a secondary SIM topped up (Tesco/O2) as a backup, but it's a pain in the backside to manually switch between the two. I have no knowledge about which providers Lothian use (and I'd imagine that these details will probably be commercially sensitive), but I can understand why it can be difficult to receive a decent signal.

 

[nesw]

Would the new system also replace or update the real time tracking , possibly including the EX1/2 and tours that aren't reporting on the current system?

 

[OmniCity999]

Would the new system also replace or update the real time tracking , possibly including the EX1/2 and tours that aren't reporting on the current system?

Tours appear on the public tracking system, Motorcoaches don't due to privacy.

9201-9208 (those used on he EX1/EX2) don't have their public trackers activated yet due to Linlithgow not being in the operating area on the tracker, its yet to be updated.

Ticketing systems have nothing to do with the trackers, it's a separate entity.

I should have noted prior that First are also currently working on capping for contactless payments, and have offered contactless UK wide for over a year now. So again using capping as an excuse for not implementing contactless already isn't really a good enough excuse.

i refer you this:

First and Stagecoach are national companies. They buy in bulk. The majority of their operating area's use the same ticketing unit, so they can buy large quantities. It's also the same software on every single unit, it's a plug and play affair, any updates can be done and every unit can be updated wirelessly and quickly.

What's also different about Lothian is the ticketing system is on a completely separate wireless network, meaning there's now three networks on every bus (ticketing, WiFi 1 and WiFi 2), this has taken time to install and test too. having a separate network allows everything to be standalone meaning if theres an issue with WiFi, the ticketing network is still up and vice versa.

Lothian wanted to be sure they had the right product. Re-Coverage etc. We don't want to be at a point where we're turning people away because the ticket machines cant get a signal, it has to be perfect from day one.

if you've used one of the contactless units on Skylin, Airlink, ECB or LCB you'll notice that transactions are very close. Alot of time has been spent on making it quicker, making the whole system seamless, right down to fare caping etc.

If people arent happy, they can goto their councillor and complain however, contactless payments arent a human right, they are not imminently required. The services where they are most likely to need them, Air/Skylink (tourists) ECB/LCB (to win over or keep customers), EBB (not so much contactless, but card payments) (tourists again) already have them and have been used as a testbed for the entire fleet.

When it arrives, it will be perfect, because all the tests have been done and all the possibilities have been tried. The company even had to hire in specialists and create a new department for ongoing maintenance and use, its taken time for a reason.

Costs have been kept down by using a familiar system for drivers, so training costs are down. The only cost is infrastructure, and its a big one.

Not to mention the data base buying built. Their building a database in a room at one of the depots i believe which will be the brain of the system.

and this:

It's taken so long for many reasons.

1 - the company wanted to keep the system familiar for current drivers so had to have close talks with the manufacturer.

2 - during tests, the built in payment pad was found to not be as responsive as we would have liked so we had to trial alternatives. Including whole new machines. Then we settled for seperate pads but Wayfrarer machines, a bit of work too.

3 - we had to find a phone network that would consistently work across the Lothians and Edinburgh. Tricky with all the tight roads, high buildings and the materials used in the buildings - seriously, that much effort went into this.

4 - Product creation. We had to create new ticketing products which involved research etc.

5 - purchasing for over 800 vehicles.

6 - training

7 - install

8 - roll out.

and this:

You don't understand the complexities of the software and the fact that once you start mixing products (i.e. exchanging capping for group products etc.) You enter a whole new ball game as you then become a retailer and there are vast amounts of legislation to then comply and get agreements for.

oh and this:

And that's why you're not running a bus company Jordan. Software...licensing costs...cost of actual implementation...cost of actually processing cards etc....etc. If it was that easy it would have been done. I could go in to the relative merits of each manufacturers machines and associated costs for upgrades on the basis you suggest but that would be improper in a competitive marketplace.

People are actually giving you reasons and you're passing it off as opinion? These are actually some of the reasons its delayed...

Get over it, its not a human right, its contactless. its not required to live, it doesnt need to be there, it's an option.

Exactly! I think National Xpress, Go-Ahead and Arriva have it UK wide now too?

There's more than one "excuse" here for you. Lothian are a small company compared to First and Stagecoach. Everything's being figured out. First, Stagecoach & others were able to figure it out for one area and roll it out and because their so large, it was easier to implement.

Lothian were due ticket machine upgrades anyway and it was the best time to do it in terms of cost.

Getting really bored your First / Stagecoach bias / Lothian hatred. It's very childish.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Getting really bored your First / Stagecoach bias / Lothian hatred. It's very childish.

I've only quoted part of your reply because I actually bust out laughing at it. Given how much i mock Stagecoach North Scotland for how useless they are i doubt i have a bias towards them, likewise with First Aberdeen especially i've mentioned countless times about how it's been neglected very badly in the past 2/3 years. I don't have a hatred for Lothian, i know you work for the company so you're going to have a bias in favour of them. However i've stated many times about the positives with Lothian, it's just in this case the topic of the moment is contactless and Lothian have quite simple taken far too long in that regard.

Perhaps re-read what i said in the post you quoted... I said that Lothian wanting to introduce capping is not a good enough excuse for Contactless to have taken so long and that many other companies have introduced contactless payments long ago and are now working on capping as an addition to it. At this rate Shetland's is going to have contactless before Lothian!

It is a matter of opinion as "in my opinion" Lothian have taken far too long to implement contactless. You may disagree, that's your opinion. There's no need to be all dramatic about it!