Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bovverboy]

That some proportion of the routes the 195s will serve are already electrified from start to finish is a bit of a travesty really.

Which routes are you thinking of? I can't think of any which match your description.

 

[Bletchleyite]

195122 has not been previously reported in service. It's appearance does support the notion that 195 operation is going to be expanded from Monday - perhaps before, who knows.
This 'door' thing is beyond a joke, it should have been sorted out weeks ago.

The door issue sounds dangerous (risk of causing people to fall on the track) and would to me be grounds for full withdrawal of the fleet until fixed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None, the 158 fleet is being upgraded to 'Connect' standard for services in the NE region. The standard being new seats and seat reservation system.

I've been on one and they are much nicer than 195s - spacious and excellent window alignment and superb legroom (about the same as 80x) - though the materials are visibly a bit cheap.

 

[Dixie]

Which routes are you thinking of? I can't think of any which match your description.

One turn appears to include a Wilmslow to Lime Street run. That would appear to be all electric.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a separate thread for that topic: Could a bi-mode version of the 331s or 195s be possible as a follow on order?

Thank you for highlighting that thread.

 

[Mathew S]

One thing I didn't think to ask is, why did it run to Barrow? If it had a problem which couldn't be sorted out on the spot should it not have gone to Newton Heath? It makes me wonder if the problem was technical at all, especially in view of the speed at which the remaining two journeys on the diagram were cancelled. The only reason I can think for it going to Barrow is that it is where the unit would have finished if the diagram had been completed as scheduled.
Another thing which seems odd, the ECS movement didn't feature a stop at Preston for a crew change. It did feature being sidelined into the Barton & Broughton loop for about fifteen minutes, but that was to let a late running Virgin to pass.

The fitters at Barrow do seem to be pretty good with getting them back into service, so maybe just a case of someone who understands the fault and can deal with it as quickly as possible.

 

[Bovverboy]

One turn appears to include a Wilmslow to Lime Street run. That would appear to be all electric.

Is that on the current diagrams, or a future one?

 

[AMD]

One turn appears to include a Wilmslow to Lime Street run. That would appear to be all electric.

That runs via Warrington Central.

 

[Bovverboy]

The fitters at Barrow do seem to be pretty good with getting them back into service, so maybe just a case of someone who understands the fault and can deal with it as quickly as possible.

Out of interest, do you know how many fitters there are at Barrow?

 

[a_c_skinner]

This 'door' thing is beyond a joke, it should have been sorted out weeks ago.

Actually they shouldn't have been buit with it. How can a significant train builder not make sliding doors that work?

 

[ed1971]

Actually they shouldn't have been buit with it. How can a significant train builder not make sliding doors that work?

Probably too much complexity built in for the sake of technology?

 

[Mathew S]

Out of interest, do you know how many fitters there are at Barrow?

Not a clue. But I've been up there a few times in the last few weeks, and on several occasions they've had to attend to a poorly 195 before I've been able to get home. One especially amusing one was the time the driver/guard intercom decided it wanted to play their conversation over the PA system. They seem to be pretty good at getting a grip on them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Have any entered passenger service yet other than 195114-195121

 

[Llama]

Probably too much complexity built in for the sake of technology?

Now you're getting warmer. The doors themselves seem fairly simple and reliable, in an electro-mechanical sense, however the stock has barely been used in service up to now. Unlike a lot of stock they are replacing which have electro-pneumatic operated doors, the actual door mechanisms on 195s (and 331s) are entirely electrical in operation.

However the ASDO system, via the Train Control Monitoring System, has overall control over the operation of the doors. In my opinion the system has been designed to be too clever for its own good. It uses no on-track infrastructure unlike most established ASDO/SDO systems in the country. As we all know there are politics at play. Infrastructure costs money. That's all I will say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now you're getting warmer. The doors themselves seem fairly simple and reliable, in an electro-mechanical sense, however the stock has barely been used in service up to now. Unlike a lot of stock they are replacing which have electro-pneumatic operated doors, the actual door mechanisms on 195s (and 331s) are entirely electrical in operation.

This is not in itself new - I believe all Bombardier *Star stock has electrically operated doors.

 

[samuelmorris]

This is not in itself new - I believe all Bombardier *Star stock has electrically operated doors.

Indeed they do, as do the Movia units on the tube. I'm not sure when the transition occurred but I think all new units use electrically driven doors now.

 

[Llama]

Edit, sorry cross-purposes with that first paragraph. The 180s (and 175s before them) which ran in the North West also had electric rather than electro-pneumatic doors.

It also doesn't help that drivers don't do any of their traction training for these types of units in passenger service, only ECS. So the first time they have to deal with an errant ASDO system where the doors refuse to open or close when they shouldn't (retry? reset? reconfigure? leave it alone? phone calls to the signaller and TOC control...) is likely to be all new to them. The guard has little involvement with the ASDO system, as the units were designed for DOO.

The practical handling part of the training has to be done on ECS, or at least part of it does, because part of the training involves the unit running in a degraded mode with respect to the TCMS, as it alters the braking and traction functionality of the unit. Ideally the four hours handling time should be split between two hours ECS and two hours on a unit in passenger service so that drivers could get used to the ASDO system and its foibles.

 

[Mathew S]

Edit, sorry cross-purposes with that first paragraph. The 180s (and 175s before them) which ran in the North West also had electric rather than electro-pneumatic doors.

It also doesn't help that drivers don't do any of their traction training for these types of units in passenger service, only ECS. So the first time they have to deal with an errant ASDO system where the doors refuse to open or close when they shouldn't (retry? reset? reconfigure? leave it alone? phone calls to the signaller and TOC control...) is likely to be all new to them. The guard has little involvement with the ASDO system, as the units were designed for DOO.

The practical handling part of the training has to be done on ECS, or at least part of it does, because part of the training involves the unit running in a degraded mode with respect to the TCMS, as it alters the braking and traction functionality of the unit. Ideally the four hours handling time should be split between two hours ECS and two hours on a unit in passenger service so that drivers could get used to the ASDO system and its foibles.

Is it purely GPS based then, if there's no physical infrastructure?
And do you think that model of training might happen now they're in service?

 

[Llama]

Is it purely GPS based then, if there's no physical infrastructure?
And do you think that model of training might happen now they're in service?

GPS and (I kid you not) wheel rotation. So how it will fare in leaf fall season where wheel rotation doesn't equal distance travelled is anyone's guess - these units barely touched NwR metals last autumn and certainly not with ASDO in use. The ASDO requires very precise positioning of the unit on platforms to work properly - stop marker boards will be provided on all routes these units operate, we are told drivers can't allow the front of the unit to pass the relevant marker board at all or the ASDO won't work. There is a tolerance of up to three metres on approach to the stop marker board too, but zero tolerance if you pass it. Three metres might sound like quite a distance but it certainly isn't from a train cab where your lateral vision isn't great.

In my opinion the training package leaves a lot to be desired, I can't see it changing for the foreseeable though. On the practical handling, any idiot can get an ECS up to line speed and sit there for an hour, four hours is the handling time. Crewe-Preston and back a couple of times is poor preparation for then taking one in service with passengers on, maybe many weeks after having passed the traction exam after your training. There are issues with the training resources, no proper manual for these units is issued to drivers and you have to remember that a decision was made not to acquire a simulator with the fleet which would've made the training ten times more comprehensive, on the things which matter, than what it is. Instead of a manual, drivers are told to carry their training notes round with them.

The degraded mode with no functional TCMS can't be done with passengers on because it bypasses a lot of vital safety systems. There is even growing reluctance to do the 'TCMS isolate' mode on the training ECS, the units don't respond well when waking up after having the TCMS switched off.

 

[samuelmorris]

GPS and (I kid you not) wheel rotation. So how it will fare in leaf fall season where wheel rotation doesn't equal distance travelled is anyone's guess - these units barely touched NwR metals last autumn and certainly not with ASDO in use. The ASDO requires very precise positioning of the unit on platforms to work properly - stop marker boards will be provided on all routes these units operate, we are told drivers can't allow the front of the unit to pass the relevant marker board at all or the ASDO won't work. There is a tolerance of up to three metres on approach to the stop marker board too, but zero tolerance if you pass it. Three metres might sound like quite a distance but it certainly isn't from a train cab where your lateral vision isn't great.

In my opinion the training package leaves a lot to be desired, I can't see it changing for the foreseeable though. On the practical handling, any idiot can get an ECS up to line speed and sit there for an hour, four hours is the handling time. Crewe-Preston and back a couple of times is poor preparation for then taking one in service with passengers on, maybe many weeks after having passed the traction exam after your training. There are issues with the training resources, no proper manual for these units is issued to drivers and you have to remember that a decision was made not to acquire a simulator with the fleet which would've made the training ten times more comprehensive, on the things which matter, than what it is. Instead of a manual, drivers are told to carry their training notes round with them.

The degraded mode with no functional TCMS can't be done with passengers on because it bypasses a lot of vital safety systems. There is even growing reluctance to do the 'TCMS isolate' mode on the training ECS, the units don't respond well when waking up after having the TCMS switched off.

That's as fascinating as it is concerning. It all has an air of 737Max to it. Granted, it's not as if there will be anything like the sort of safety crisis Boeing had, but the same rather careless attitude to staff training seems to be taken. It's no surprise there have been issues with the units in service hearing the above.

 

[Llama]

There are many and varied issues with the units. Political pressure to get them into service was and is immense. There have been, and continue to be, incidents involving them with training and technical issues as causal factors. There were two collisions on Newton Heath a fortnight ago involving 195s and another one has apparent water ingress issues (weather related).

 

[Neptune]

This is not in itself new - I believe all Bombardier *Star stock has electrically operated doors.

The 333’s also have electric doors and they’re 20 years old next year. The older 332’s no doubt are the same.

 

[Llama]

The 323s are the same, 1993/4 vintage. None of these types are known for unreliable doors as far as I know.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 323s are the same, 1993/4 vintage. None of these types are known for unreliable doors as far as I know.

It seems strange that the 195s are having issues with doors, whereas I don't think I've seen any reports of problems with the 331s (which presumably have the same mechanism).

 

[ed1971]

It seems strange that the 195s are having issues with doors, whereas I don't think I've seen any reports of problems with the 331s (which presumably have the same mechanism).

Are there any Class 331s actually in passenger service yet?

 

[superkev]

In my opinion the training package leaves a lot to be desired, I can't see it changing for the foreseeable though. On the practical handling, any idiot can get an ECS up to line speed and sit there for an hour, four hours is the handling time. Crewe-Preston and back a couple of times is poor preparation for then taking one in service with passengers on, maybe many weeks after having passed the traction exam after your training. There are issues with the training resources, no proper manual for these units is issued to drivers and you have to remember that a decision was made not to acquire a simulator with the fleet which would've made the training ten times more comprehensive, on the things which matter, than what it is. Instead of a manual, drivers are told to carry their training notes round with

I too am puzzled with training and procedures for getting much needed trains into passenger service.
When I heard it was a 7 day course with just a couple of driving trips on the last day I wondered what needed to be learnt on the other 6.
With increasing tech I cant understand why operators dont have airplane style check lists rather than trying to remember what the instructor said a few months ago. Regarding instructors who probably learnt on a previous course isn't it a bit like the blind leading the blind.
Regarding the trains arent they like aircraft supposed to work out of the box. Mileage accumulation (how many miles are needed?) up and down the wcml is not to me a fair acceptance test.
Regarding pre delivery works it doesn't look good where the facility at for example Newton Heath is still nowhere near finished of I hear rumours of new units being used as a source for non available spares. Should have all been in place before they arrived inc fitter training.
Pretty poor by all concerned me thinks.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are there any Class 331s actually in passenger service yet?

Yes, on Leeds - Doncaster services, started on the same day as the 195s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 323s are the same, 1993/4 vintage. None of these types are known for unreliable doors as far as I know.

Arguably electric doors should be more reliable than air powered ones as they are simpler.

 

[Greybeard33]

It seems strange that the 195s are having issues with doors, whereas I don't think I've seen any reports of problems with the 331s (which presumably have the same mechanism).

From the 331 thread:

Certainly the one 331 ride that I have had was having door issues. Was 8 mins late departing Doncaster due to ‘technical issues with the train ‘ and on the return from Leeds, the guard seemed to be having problems getting some doors to work properly. Other than that, was very impressed with the 331.

 

[js1000]

It seems strange that the 195s are having issues with doors, whereas I don't think I've seen any reports of problems with the 331s (which presumably have the same mechanism).

The problems regarding doors on the 195s appear more pronounced at certain stations - namely Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Whether this is something to do with faulty ASDO beacons, bi-directional signalling or drivers stopping too far/back from where they should do is another question. I have noticed the stopping boards (along with number of cars for each train) at Manchester Piccadilly platform 13 have changed this week.