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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Bantamzen

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That's as fascinating as it is concerning. It all has an air of 737Max to it. Granted, it's not as if there will be anything like the sort of safety crisis Boeing had, but the same rather careless attitude to staff training seems to be taken. It's no surprise there have been issues with the units in service hearing the above.

Seriously? We are talking about the doors here, not a system designed to prevent aircraft stalls that was able to counteract stick movements from the cockpit. This is nothing like the Max issue, and frankly it is disingenuous to those that lost their lives in those two terrible crashes.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Seriously? We are talking about the doors here, not a system designed to prevent aircraft stalls that was able to counteract stick movements from the cockpit. This is nothing like the Max issue, and frankly it is disingenuous to those that lost their lives in those two terrible crashes.

It could be a safety issue (knock someone on the track) but I do agree the comparison is not great, if only because aircraft systems tend to have multiple redundancy (which is where the MAX was lacking), whereas there is no need for this with train doors provided they default to a safe state (closed) in the event of a failure.
 

Bantamzen

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It could be a safety issue (knock someone on the track) but I do agree the comparison is not great, if only because aircraft systems tend to have multiple redundancy (which is where the MAX was lacking), whereas there is no need for this with train doors provided they default to a safe state (closed) in the event of a failure.

I agree, but it isn't going to result in the loss of all lives onboard as the drivers battle the faulty software, as was the case with the two Max tragedies.

I may seem a bit prickly about the use of these kind of examples, and that's because I am. Too often in this country do we over-exaggerate situations and make comparisons to far worse incidents around the globe in order to dramatise our lives. From potholed roads being described as "war zones" to people having to wait a couple of hours for a flight as "torture", as a nation we have become experts in turning a molehill into a five mile wide meteor slamming into the Earth.

If anyone wants to see these kinds of ridiculous examples in everyday use, there is a Facebook group called "Angry People In Local Newspapers". I highly recommend it, although you do need a reasonably tuned sense of humour for it (and its nothing do with the fact I am tagged as a 'Top Fan' on it, honest guv!!)
 

Bletchleyite

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If anyone wants to see these kinds of ridiculous examples in everyday use, there is a Facebook group called "Angry People In Local Newspapers". I highly recommend it, although you do need a reasonably tuned sense of humour for it (and its nothing do with the fact I am tagged as a 'Top Fan' on it, honest guv!!)

OT, but I'm on there too and it is indeed hilarious.... Binnnnnnnnnnnnnns! :D
 

Mathew S

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The problems regarding doors on the 195s appear more pronounced at certain stations - namely Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Whether this is something to do with faulty ASDO beacons, bi-directional signalling or drivers stopping too far/back from where they should do is another question. I have noticed the stopping boards (along with number of cars for each train) at Manchester Piccadilly platform 13 have changed this week.
I've also noticed stop boards bearing the text "Northern ASDO" appearing at some stations, presumably where the 195s/331s require a different stopping position to other units. Does all seem rather silly, especially when a lot of the stations involved are having ASDO beacons fitted for the new TPE trains anyway. Stable-doors and horses, I know, but surely it would have made sense for the same system to be fitted to both TPE and Northern trains.
GPS and (I kid you not) wheel rotation. So how it will fare in leaf fall season where wheel rotation doesn't equal distance travelled is anyone's guess - these units barely touched NwR metals last autumn and certainly not with ASDO in use. The ASDO requires very precise positioning of the unit on platforms to work properly - stop marker boards will be provided on all routes these units operate, we are told drivers can't allow the front of the unit to pass the relevant marker board at all or the ASDO won't work. There is a tolerance of up to three metres on approach to the stop marker board too, but zero tolerance if you pass it. Three metres might sound like quite a distance but it certainly isn't from a train cab where your lateral vision isn't great.

In my opinion the training package leaves a lot to be desired, I can't see it changing for the foreseeable though. On the practical handling, any idiot can get an ECS up to line speed and sit there for an hour, four hours is the handling time. Crewe-Preston and back a couple of times is poor preparation for then taking one in service with passengers on, maybe many weeks after having passed the traction exam after your training. There are issues with the training resources, no proper manual for these units is issued to drivers and you have to remember that a decision was made not to acquire a simulator with the fleet which would've made the training ten times more comprehensive, on the things which matter, than what it is. Instead of a manual, drivers are told to carry their training notes round with them.

The degraded mode with no functional TCMS can't be done with passengers on because it bypasses a lot of vital safety systems. There is even growing reluctance to do the 'TCMS isolate' mode on the training ECS, the units don't respond well when waking up after having the TCMS switched off.
Thanks for the info, even if it doesn't exactly paint a cheerful picture. And absolutely, I can completely understand why stopping a train within a 3m window - especially a train that drivers aren't used to - is a challenge!
As an outsider looking in, the lack of an appropriate simulator seems foolish at best. It's going to be very interesting comparing all this to what happens when the 196s arrive in the West Midlands.
 

Mathew S

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It seems strange that the 195s are having issues with doors, whereas I don't think I've seen any reports of problems with the 331s (which presumably have the same mechanism).
I had my first ride on a 331 from Leeds to Doncaster last Wednesday. I can confirm that there were problems with the ASDO, the doors themselves, and the toilet door randomly locking itself out of use when the train arrived at a station - and that was all on one journey!
Oh, and the PIS went wonky as well - though I think that might have been connected to the ASDO playing silly beggers.
 

js1000

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I've also noticed stop boards bearing the text "Northern ASDO" appearing at some stations, presumably where the 195s/331s require a different stopping position to other units. Does all seem rather silly, especially when a lot of the stations involved are having ASDO beacons fitted for the new TPE trains anyway. Stable-doors and horses, I know, but surely it would have made sense for the same system to be fitted to both TPE and Northern trains.
Just read Lama's enlightening post re. ASDO for first time too. It doesn't surprise me. No simulator and manual considering they will have 100+ units in operation seems somewhat ridiculous. Also not running more 195/331s through Piccadilly/Oxford Road during testing - and particularly as six-coach double units - struck me as a mistake.

There is a lack of appreciation that ASDO is something completely new for Northern drivers and conductors to deal with and this should have been a priority rather than an afterthought (i.e. as long as the train is drive-able and can brake it's fine - door operation not as important). You're asking drivers to land on six-piece which they have not had to do on most services until now.

Even off the top of my head, in Northern England, the only unit and station to have to have selective door operation due to insufficient platform capacity is the 8 carriage TPE 350s at Oxford Road on the Manchester Airport to Glasgow service. Although that service doesn't stop at Oxford Road any more.
 

driver_m

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Just read Lama's enlightening post re. ASDO for first time too. It doesn't surprise me. No simulator and manual considering they will have 100+ units in operation seems somewhat ridiculous. Also not running more 195/331s through Piccadilly/Oxford Road during testing - and particularly as six-coach double units - struck me as a mistake.

There is a lack of appreciation that ASDO is something completely new for Northern drivers and conductors to deal with and this should have been a priority rather than an afterthought (i.e. as long as the train is drive-able and can brake it's fine - door operation not as important). You're asking drivers to land on six-piece which they have not had to do on most services until now.

Even off the top of my head, in Northern England, the only unit and station to have to have selective door operation due to insufficient platform capacity is the 8 carriage TPE 350s at Oxford Road on the Manchester Airport to Glasgow service. Although that service doesn't stop at Oxford Road any more.

Being picky. Wilmslow Up Styal Platform needs SDO for 11 car pendos due to not fitting. But obvs only an issue for us at VT.
 

Bovverboy

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.Even off the top of my head, in Northern England, the only unit and station to have to have selective door operation due to insufficient platform capacity is the 8 carriage TPE 350s at Oxford Road on the Manchester Airport to Glasgow service. Although that service doesn't stop at Oxford Road any more.

The 350s don't have Selective Door Operation as such, i.e. individual doors on a unit can't be opened in isolation. What happens at Oxford Road (Westbound) with a double 350 is, the conductor isolates the doors of the trailing unit and passengers have to enter/exit the train via the leading unit. They can then transfer to/from the trailing unit via the corridor connection.
I can assure you that TPE 350s do stop at Oxford Road, they have resumed stopping there now that the service doesn't stop at Wigan (or drop off, on the Bolton line). 350s very rarely run as doubles now (there aren't enough available) although I did see one last Sunday (4/8/19) at Preston on a delayed Glasgow train, this would presumably have been the 1910 ex-Manchester Airport.
A double 350 can stop in the main Eastbound platform at Oxford Road (P4) and all the doors opened, but it is a tight fit.
 

samuelmorris

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Seriously? We are talking about the doors here, not a system designed to prevent aircraft stalls that was able to counteract stick movements from the cockpit. This is nothing like the Max issue, and frankly it is disingenuous to those that lost their lives in those two terrible crashes.
Which is why it's important to read the entirety of a post before criticising it. I am not comparing the safety implications of that incident but this is another case of a complex transport system being introduced with an unacceptably lax training regime. Of course the consequences are going to be far smaller and result in merely a big stack of delay minutes rather than anybody being killed, but I don't think it's any more appropriate to have that sort of training regime (or lack thereof) on the railway as it would be in aviation. It's only because of the severity of that example that it is well-known enough to be dragged in as a comparison.

You won't find me as one of those people that make mountains of molehills spouting abuse at TOCs for every little issue. I'd hope that you'd have seen enough of my posts to realise that but perhaps you haven't, no worries.

Back onto the subject at hand, do we think the lack of preparation for these units with regard to ASDO stems from the DOO backlash? Ignoring the tired discussions about the pros and cons of DOO operation, I wonder if Northern expecting to have a different working practice in place than the one they have ultimately ended up with has left them unprepared and they have taken too little action to amend the process?
 

supervc-10

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I thought the issues with the doors are less to do with them being electrically operated, but with the ASDO systems? You could fit an ASDO system to something with slam doors in theory, with it selectively unlocking certain doors in certain places. The ASDO system is enabling certain doors in certain places, and sometimes is getting confused and defaulting to the 'safety' of closing everything.
 

samuelmorris

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I thought the issues with the doors are less to do with them being electrically operated, but with the ASDO systems? You could fit an ASDO system to something with slam doors in theory, with it selectively unlocking certain doors in certain places. The ASDO system is enabling certain doors in certain places, and sometimes is getting confused and defaulting to the 'safety' of closing everything.
Nothing to do with the actual mechanism of the doors themselves, all to do with how they are controlled by the TMS I think.
 

jonnyfan

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It looks like we've had our first 195/0 2-car units out and about today in the form of 195001 and 195007 coupled up together. I believe we've only had the 195/1 3-car units out and about up until now
 

geoffk

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Getting away from doors for a moment, the 11.50 MIA - Liverpool was a pair of 2-car units this morning - 195001/007. I saw them later on the 14.50. I also noted 195125 on a Barrow service. Anyone know how many units came into service today? (jonnyfan just beat me to it!)
 
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Getting away from doors for a moment, the 11.50 MIA - Liverpool was a pair of 2-car units this morning - 195001/007. I saw them later on the 14.50. I also noted 195125 on a Barrow service. Anyone know how many units came into service today? (jonnyfan just beat me to it!)
195001
195007
195124
195125
 

T74

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First 195 through Sheffield tonight en route to Worksop due sheff 1735 ish
 

Neptune

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195’s to start Leeds - Nottingham services by the end of the year. Due to start Calder Valley in September. All subject to change of course.
 

M60lad

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When you say Calder Valley is this just the route via Bradford Interchange or does this include the route via Brighouse as well?
 

Llama

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Just via Bradford on the Leeds-Chester service. I suspect that the original September date has slipped to October for that but others may know different/things may change.
 

Llama

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Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean they won't have diagrams which take them there, just as 158s see Newton Heath every day.
 

61653 HTAFC

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195’s to start Leeds - Nottingham services by the end of the year. Due to start Calder Valley in September. All subject to change of course.
Will this be via Barnsley as currently, or via Wakefield Westgate as was specified at the start of the franchise? If it's still via Barnsley at that point then the extension to Bradford Interchange probably won't be happening at that time, due to the Woodlesford and Pudsey lines being almost at opposite extremes if the station throat from each other.
 

Mollman

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When you say Calder Valley is this just the route via Bradford Interchange or does this include the route via Brighouse as well?

The 170s were meant to be working the Southport via Brighouse services. Given that this hasn't happened 195s might start making an appearance instead (as 170s work Hull - Sheffield which I believe was meant to be 195s).
 

matacaster

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Don't forget, 155's were nearly a year late as a result of the manufacturer being unable to get the doors working properly and that was with only a two coach unit without selective door opening (if I remember correctly).
 
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