Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Neptune]

No confirmation yet as to which way the Leeds - Notts service is running from December although management have intimated that they will start via Westgate from December. I think extending it to Bradford has been replaced by the new Halifax - Hull service starting in December. At least this service means that the well used Bradford - East Leeds stations will be reconnected.

Also intimated by management but unconfirmed (so please don’t quote this as fact until we know either way) is that the current Leeds - Sheffield path used by the Nottingham service will extend to Dronfield & Chesterfield with the Dronfield stop being removed from the re-routed Leeds - Nottingham service. Dronfield is only really used by passengers to Nottingham at peak hours from experience so additional stops could be made at peak hours.

 

[ed1971]

And won't now be happening, they're staying in the east region, with the 195s covering Calder Valley.

Today I've seen a 158 on Leeds to Southport services and a 195 on the Todmorden curve around 11am.

 

[driver_m]

195s on Edge Hill. 101, 106, 123 and 126. 106 is still not fully pieced up.

 

[northernchris]

Just via Bradford on the Leeds-Chester service. I suspect that the original September date has slipped to October for that but others may know different/things may change.

As the Chester service currently interworks with the Leeds - Manchester Victoria, this could suggest they are splitting to ensure all the Chester's can be worked by 195s

 

[Llama]

No, they are staying together. It will be October before 195s are seen on the Leeds-Chester service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No confirmation yet as to which way the Leeds - Notts service is running from December although management have intimated that they will start via Westgate from December. I think extending it to Bradford has been replaced by the new Halifax - Hull service starting in December. At least this service means that the well used Bradford - East Leeds stations will be reconnected.

Also intimated by management but unconfirmed (so please don’t quote this as fact until we know either way) is that the current Leeds - Sheffield path used by the Nottingham service will extend to Dronfield & Chesterfield with the Dronfield stop being removed from the re-routed Leeds - Nottingham service. Dronfield is only really used by passengers to Nottingham at peak hours from experience so additional stops could be made at peak hours.

If true, the Chesterfield changes seem a good idea. Though I thought Bradford to Nottingham was a franchise commitment so I'm surprised about that change.

 

[Bantamzen]

If true, the Chesterfield changes seem a good idea. Though I thought Bradford to Nottingham was a franchise commitment so I'm surprised about that change.

And weren't they eventually to interwork with the Bradford - Manchester Airport services? As a local I wouldn't be massively concerned by losing the Nottingham services, but the airport one would be a bit of a blow.

 

[Harvey B]

Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean they won't have diagrams which take them there, just as 158s see Newton Heath every day.

So 195s will just be there for overnight stabling then?

 

[Llama]

195s will be stabling all over the place just as 150s, 142s, 156s etc do now. There isn't anywhere near enough room for every unit allocated to Newton Heath, and many other depots, to actually stable there.

Stabling at a depot isn't the same as allocation to that depot. Newton Heath units only usually see Newton Heath every few days.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And weren't they eventually to interwork with the Bradford - Manchester Airport services? As a local I wouldn't be massively concerned by losing the Nottingham services, but the airport one would be a bit of a blow.

I know many people prefer direct services, but I can't imagine many would choose a Nottingham to Manchester Airport via Leeds and Bradford service just to avoid changing at Sheffield and/or Piccadilly!

Bradford to Manchester Airport will probably still run, perhaps even as an extension of the aforementioned Hull to Halifax service.

 

[Bantamzen]

I know many people prefer direct services, but I can't imagine many would choose a Nottingham to Manchester Airport via Leeds and Bradford service just to avoid changing at Sheffield and/or Piccadilly!

Bradford to Manchester Airport will probably still run, perhaps even as an extension of the aforementioned Hull to Halifax service.

I don't think it was ever going to be an advertised route, just that the paths would interwork.

 

[Harvey B]

195s will be stabling all over the place just as 150s, 142s, 156s etc do now. There isn't anywhere near enough room for every unit allocated to Newton Heath, and many other depots, to actually stable there.

Stabling at a depot isn't the same as allocation to that depot. Newton Heath units only usually see Newton Heath every few days.

Thanks, What I was meaning was will the 195s just be at Neville Hill for overnight stabling? Should have mentioned that before.
My bad

 

[Neptune]

I would imagine they’ll stable at Neville Hill, Holbeck and in Leeds station as per the units they’re replacing.

 

[Harvey B]

I would imagine they’ll stable at Neville Hill, Holbeck and in Leeds station as per the units they’re replacing.

Thanks @Neptune, probably my assumptions too

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bradford to Manchester Airport will probably still run, perhaps even as an extension of the aforementioned Hull to Halifax service.

Is this the time or place to mention a line or two from "The Beggar's Litany".....

"From Hull and Hell and Halifax,
Good Lord, deliver us"

 

[superkev]

I would imagine they’ll stable at Neville Hill, Holbeck and in Leeds station as per the units they’re replacing.

I think the question being asked is will Newton Heath and Allerton have an increase in workload at the expense of Neville hill as both 195s and 331 are pressed into service.
As a sideline NL will presumably lose East Midlands work as new trains are delivered there. I believe East coast only uses NL for overnight parking.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is this the time or place to mention a line or two from "The Beggar's Litany".....

"From Hull and Hell and Halifax,
Good Lord, deliver us"

As good a time as any, I suppose!

If such a through service (joining Hull to Halifax with Bradford Interchange to Manchester Airport) was to be formed, taking a 195 direct would be a decent competitor compared to using TPE with a change at Leeds/Dewsbury/Huddersfield.

 

[Staffordian]

Is this the time or place to mention a line or two from "The Beggar's Litany".....

"From Hull and Hell and Halifax,
Good Lord, deliver us"

Are you suggesting that Hell will be a calling point on this service between Hull and Halifax ? If so, which station did you have in mind ?

 

[krus_aragon]

Is this the time or place to mention a line or two from "The Beggar's Litany".....

"From Hull and Hell and Halifax,
Good Lord, deliver us"

And a little further south: Lead us not into Trent station..

 

[Greybeard33]

Bradford to Manchester Airport will probably still run, perhaps even as an extension of the aforementioned Hull to Halifax service.

There is no Bradford to Manchester Airport service in the December 2019 timetable. It seems highly unlikely Network Rail will offer a path for it through the Castlefield corridor until Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 are completed.

 

[geoffk]

There is no Bradford to Manchester Airport service in the December 2019 timetable. It seems highly unlikely Network Rail will offer a path for it through the Castlefield corridor until Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 are completed.

Better use also needs to be made of Oxford Road platforms 1 and 3, although 1 has no lift and it's a diifficult job putting one in. Piccadilly bound trains often queue for platform 4 even though 3 is unoccupied.

 

[js1000]

Bradford to Manchester Airport will probably still run, perhaps even as an extension of the aforementioned Hull to Halifax service.

There is no Bradford to Manchester Airport service in the December 2019 timetable. It seems highly unlikely Network Rail will offer a path for it through the Castlefield corridor until Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 are completed.

I'd be amazed if the proposed Northern Connect Bradford/Hull to Manchester Airport goes ahead. There simply is no more space through the Castlefield corridor / Styal Line for another train and platform capacity is becoming a constraining issue at Manchester Airport with TPE's new units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Better use also needs to be made of Oxford Road platforms 1 and 3, although 1 has no lift and it's a diifficult job putting one in. Piccadilly bound trains often queue for platform 4 even though 3 is unoccupied.

What were the difficulties that were envisaged in installing lift facilities on platform 1 at Manchester Oxford Road station? Is that the reason for the under-utilisation of that particular platform?

 

[Bantamzen]

Better use also needs to be made of Oxford Road platforms 1 and 3, although 1 has no lift and it's a diifficult job putting one in. Piccadilly bound trains often queue for platform 4 even though 3 is unoccupied.

Indeed, although I feel some TPE services ought to be skipping Oxford Road and it be concentrated as more of a local station for commuters. There's really no good reason for TPEs to be stopping at three Manchester stations.

What were the difficulties that were envisaged in installing lift facilities on platform 1 at Manchester Oxford Road station? Is that the reason for the under-utilisation of that particular platform?

The alignment of the subway servicing the lifts between P4 and P2/3 is beyond the eastern end of P1. To make best use of P1, a new bridge and lift facilities needs to be built, and of course at least P1 neds to be somehow lengthened, which would probably need all the track work realigned.

 

[xotGD]

Indeed, although I feel some TPE services ought to be skipping Oxford Road and it be concentrated as more of a local station for commuters. There's really no good reason for TPEs to be stopping at three Manchester stations.

If they missed out Oxford Road, passengers would have to double back via Pic, adding even more congestion to P13 & P14.

Actually, I do sometimes do the double back move in the evening to increase the chance of getting a seat if I don't have one reserved.

 

[Greybeard33]

Better use also needs to be made of Oxford Road platforms 1 and 3, although 1 has no lift and it's a diifficult job putting one in. Piccadilly bound trains often queue for platform 4 even though 3 is unoccupied.

If you are suggesting a Bradford to Oxford Road service, that would avoid the worst bottleneck at Piccadilly, but would still increase congestion in the corridor. Especially crossing Oxford Road throat to terminate in Platform 1. A reversal in Platform 3 would greatly reduce options for recovery from disruption.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you are suggesting a Bradford to Oxford Road service, that would avoid the worst bottleneck at Piccadilly, but would still increase congestion in the corridor. Especially crossing Oxford Road throat to terminate in Platform 1. A reversal in Platform 3 would greatly reduce options for recovery from disruption.

What is wrong, if you really need to terminate in a Manchester city station, with terminating in the Manchester Victoria bay platforms 1 or 2, which will mean neither Manchester Oxford Road nor Manchester Piccadilly need to be inconvenienced?

 

[Bantamzen]

If they missed out Oxford Road, passengers would have to double back via Pic, adding even more congestion to P13 & P14.

Actually, I do sometimes do the double back move in the evening to increase the chance of getting a seat if I don't have one reserved.

Or they would get off at Victoria and utilise the tram instead for central Manchester. And as there are practically no connecting services at Oxford Road that cannot be caught at Piccadilly, so some better planning there (like not shoehorning passengers on P14 into a tiny fraction of one end) you could solve some of the issues there. Indeed like you I do actually pass through Oxford Road to interchange at Piccadilly, because in the case of delay it has far better facilities.

 

[xotGD]

Or they would get off at Victoria and utilise the tram instead for central Manchester. And as there are practically no connecting services at Oxford Road that cannot be caught at Piccadilly, so some better planning there (like not shoehorning passengers on P14 into a tiny fraction of one end) you could solve some of the issues there. Indeed like you I do actually pass through Oxford Road to interchange at Piccadilly, because in the case of delay it has far better facilities.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - Oxford Road is my destination / start point for my return journey over the Pennines, so going in/out of Pic involves catching an additional train.

Anyway, why should I have to faff about catching (and paying for) a tram that doesn't go to Oxford Road or catching a very slow free bus when I've already got a valid rail ticket and I'm already sat on the train? There are plenty of commuters from Leeds and Hudds who use TPE and get off at Oxford Road.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - Oxford Road is my destination / start point for my return journey over the Pennines, so going in/out of Pic involves catching an additional train.

Anyway, why should I have to faff about catching (and paying for) a tram that doesn't go to Oxford Road or catching a very slow free bus when I've already got a valid rail ticket and I'm already sat on the train? There are plenty of commuters from Leeds and Hudds who use TPE and get off at Oxford Road.

Well if there was an integrated ticketing agreement that would help, because of course most people don't end their journeys at Oxford Road, and that station is possibly the least convenient for Metrolink & heavy rail connections.