At Carlisle, Northern units don't go off to a depot, they stable overnight in the station platforms. So by comparing platform numbers you can see whether a unit has ultimately gone back whence it came, or whether it's gone off on another route. All the ex-Cumbrian Coast units seem to go back to the Cumbrian Coast.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams
- Thread starter mikemcniven
- Start date
- Status
At Carlisle, Northern units don't go off to a depot, they stable overnight in the station platforms. So by comparing platform numbers you can see whether a unit has ultimately gone back whence it came, or whether it's gone off on another route. All the ex-Cumbrian Coast units seem to go back to the Cumbrian Coast.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,300
Tonight's 1N68 Manchester Airport to Blackpool is a 195/1.
Stuck behind 2 late running stoppers, at around 30mph where the unit annoyingly cycles through 1st and 2nd gears.
Guard even did a full revenue check after Salford, unusual for Northern trains at this late hour. Perhaps related to the dispatch being cab orientated.
Stuck behind 2 late running stoppers, at around 30mph where the unit annoyingly cycles through 1st and 2nd gears.
Guard even did a full revenue check after Salford, unusual for Northern trains at this late hour. Perhaps related to the dispatch being cab orientated.
It's booked for a 195/1, and has been since Monday of this week, although on Monday itself a 156 was substituted, since the 195/1 was needed at Preston to do the first Preston-Barrow the next morning.
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,300
Aah must have missed that change. At least Northern had the crew for it today
Joel Halligan
New Member
- Joined
- 29 Dec 2017
- Messages
- 1
I don’t think RTT shows shunt moves at Carlisle and therefore I wouldn’t assume that units don’t get swapped over between the Tyne Valley and Cumbrian Coast routes (and also 158s now to the S&C). As an example, the M-F 05:31 (2L02) service from Carlisle to Dumfries is formed of a pair of Northern 156s off platform 8 - a north-facing bay platform - but you will note there is no shunt move showing how these got there... p.s. these units then form the 06:18 and 7:41 Dumfries to Newcastle services respectively.
Yes, I'd noticed that platform numbers were a bit suspect, similar things happen at the south end of the station, trains arrive or depart Platforms 1, 2, and 5 without there being a corresponding working. Trouble is, that doesn't prove that there is interworking between Tyne Valley and Cumbrian Coast sets, or that there isn't, so we're back to square one.
At least with the 0531 departure from Platform 8 (without a corresponding arrival), there is an arrival in Platform 7 the previous evening (without a corresponding departure). So it would seem reasonable to suppose that these two trains comprise the same sets, although I can't imagine why the platform numbers can't be correct.
When you mention 158s, I presume you mean potential swaps between S&C and Tyne Valley sets, since 158s don't operate on the Cumbrian Coast.
At least with the 0531 departure from Platform 8 (without a corresponding arrival), there is an arrival in Platform 7 the previous evening (without a corresponding departure). So it would seem reasonable to suppose that these two trains comprise the same sets, although I can't imagine why the platform numbers can't be correct.
When you mention 158s, I presume you mean potential swaps between S&C and Tyne Valley sets, since 158s don't operate on the Cumbrian Coast.
Last edited:
156420
Member
Off topic slightly so apologies (as this is about 195’s)
But the moves to get units to/from Heaton for maintenance do take place at Carlisle (if required) so for example - 2209 Whitehaven-Carlisle will stable and go off the next day on the 0544 Carlisle-Nunthorpe (This is a common one as this one ends goes onto HT at 12+54) This is not definite, if the unit is a good unit (doesn’t need fuel or plenty of miles before exam) then the diagram cycle doesn’t always happen. But can confirm that Carlisle is the method of swapping units (despite what RTT says)
Hope this is information is of use.
But the moves to get units to/from Heaton for maintenance do take place at Carlisle (if required) so for example - 2209 Whitehaven-Carlisle will stable and go off the next day on the 0544 Carlisle-Nunthorpe (This is a common one as this one ends goes onto HT at 12+54) This is not definite, if the unit is a good unit (doesn’t need fuel or plenty of miles before exam) then the diagram cycle doesn’t always happen. But can confirm that Carlisle is the method of swapping units (despite what RTT says)
Hope this is information is of use.
Thanks indeed for the info. Actually, you're not really contradicting RTT, as RTT wasn't particularly definitive either way.
Can I presume that the arrangement for swapping 156s between Barrow and Heaton has existed for some considerable time? Prior to the recent changes, two Barrow-start Sprinters finished up at Newton Heath each night, so there was scope for swapping everything through Newton Heath, if necessary.
Finally, you imply that Cumbrian Coast 156s need to get to Heaton for fuel. Is fuel not available at Barrow? The 195s spend 4/5 days at a time away from maintenance depots.
Can I presume that the arrangement for swapping 156s between Barrow and Heaton has existed for some considerable time? Prior to the recent changes, two Barrow-start Sprinters finished up at Newton Heath each night, so there was scope for swapping everything through Newton Heath, if necessary.
Finally, you imply that Cumbrian Coast 156s need to get to Heaton for fuel. Is fuel not available at Barrow? The 195s spend 4/5 days at a time away from maintenance depots.
Well, for anyone wanting to see 195s in service, yesterday (Saturday 17/8/19) would have been a particularly bad day for going out and doing it, unless they were out and about early enough. Indeed, things seemed to tick along reasonably well until mid-afternoon, although there was a blip with the first Windermere, and we did get a report from childwallblues (on the Construction/Introduction thread) that 195001 was operating solo on Lime Street - Airports.
The rot seemed to start with the cancellation of the 1316 Lime Street - Airport and 1450 return. This was followed by the cancellation of the 1516, 1715, 1816, 1915, 2016, 2129, and 2224 journeys and their related returns. (The 2224 doesn't have one, it's ECS to Newton Heath from the Airport). So after 1316 only the 1416 and 1616 journeys operated, the latter a whopping 39L.
Meanwhile things started to go adrift on Barrow/Windermere at much the same time, with the cancellation of the 1306 Windermere - Airport after Preston, and its return working, 1530 Airport - Barrow, which was cancelled throughout. The 1446 Barrow - Airport then missed completely, and its return, 1729 Airport - Windermere. The 1948 Windermere - Oxenholme also missed, but then a unit was sent ECS from Preston to Oxenholme to pick up the rest of the diagram. The 1645 Barrow - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return 1929 Airport - Barrow was cancelled up to Preston. The 1855 Windermere - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return, 2234 Airport - Blackpool North, was cancelled completely. The 1903 Barrow - Preston was cancelled, the 1934 Barrow - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return, 2210 Airport - Barrow, was cancelled up to Preston. So, of the last seven scheduled 195 departures from the Airport (on the Barrow/Windermere circuit), only the second and fourth operated.
The rot seemed to start with the cancellation of the 1316 Lime Street - Airport and 1450 return. This was followed by the cancellation of the 1516, 1715, 1816, 1915, 2016, 2129, and 2224 journeys and their related returns. (The 2224 doesn't have one, it's ECS to Newton Heath from the Airport). So after 1316 only the 1416 and 1616 journeys operated, the latter a whopping 39L.
Meanwhile things started to go adrift on Barrow/Windermere at much the same time, with the cancellation of the 1306 Windermere - Airport after Preston, and its return working, 1530 Airport - Barrow, which was cancelled throughout. The 1446 Barrow - Airport then missed completely, and its return, 1729 Airport - Windermere. The 1948 Windermere - Oxenholme also missed, but then a unit was sent ECS from Preston to Oxenholme to pick up the rest of the diagram. The 1645 Barrow - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return 1929 Airport - Barrow was cancelled up to Preston. The 1855 Windermere - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return, 2234 Airport - Blackpool North, was cancelled completely. The 1903 Barrow - Preston was cancelled, the 1934 Barrow - Airport was cancelled after Preston, and its return, 2210 Airport - Barrow, was cancelled up to Preston. So, of the last seven scheduled 195 departures from the Airport (on the Barrow/Windermere circuit), only the second and fourth operated.
Last edited:
Sprinter150
Member
- Joined
- 31 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 104
Circuit 2 was certainly running yesterday (at least in part), as I observed it at Oxenholme on the 1239 to Windermere. It was 195121
Cancellations for today are already showing on 'Journey Check' - 1116 Liverpool - Airport & 1248 return; 1047 Barrow - Airport (after Preston) and 1334 Airport - Barrow (up to Preston). The latter two cancellations aren't showing on RTT (yet).
Or any reports of what's been happening on Barrows/Windermeres? Have 195s taken over the remaining duties? I'd be particularly interested to hear if 5U70 (0728 Newton Heath to Manchester Airport ECS) ran as a double 195/1 this morning. Sorry, I can't easily get out myself today.
By observation:
156489+156441 1F91 1651 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street
156464+156425 1H41 1614 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport
1H42 1716 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport hasn't run
Quite a few traincrew related cancellations on the Barrow / Windermere route but now seen
195114 1U82 1606 Windermere to Manchester Airport
195118 1T59 1933 Manchester Airport to Preston
195115 1U83 1901 Windermere to Manchester Airport
I wonder if they are waiting for more 2-car 195s in service before switching the Sunday Liverpool services.
Last edited:
railfan100
On Moderation
Travelled on one today for the first time, seats like concrete, some rattles of the interior, small delay due to door issues. However the seats next to no comfort like the Class 700 units in my opinion. When people travel in a modern car with a big comfortable seat what must they think of this new 'modern' seat that seem to be the standard?
Thanks for the info. Interesting that double 156s are continuing to run the Sunday service on Liverpools.
The diagram scheduled to do the 1716 ex-Lime Street had actually been grounded since 1116. It's back in use now (as the 2016) but, according to 'Journey Check', it's going to be terminated at Oxford Road on the way back due to a shortage of conductors. Both other diagrams look to have operated normally.
I don't think there's any need for anyone to be concerned what's operating the 2016, it'll be a double 156, or it might be a single, since one of the Airport diagrams does usually get knocked down towards the end of the day.
Unfortunately (for me!) both of those journeys are covered by established 195 diagrams. The following are the ones I'd be interested in: 1433 Airport - Windermere, 1533 Airport - Barrow, 1633 Airport - Barrow. Of those, the 1533 has today been cancelled to Preston, and the 1633 cancelled after Preston.
The 1433 returns as 2125 Preston to Newton Heath ECS, and the 1633 as the 2109 Preston to Manchester Airport - the latter is the uncancelled part of the 1947 ex-Barrow.
I really don't know why they're persevering with double 156s on Liverpools. I certainly wouldn't be able to see the sense in replacing them with 195/0s, as that would represent a significant drop in capacity. I could if they were currently using single, rather than double, 156s, but, generally speaking, they're not.
Ignore the above nonsense about the 1433, it runs ECS to Newton Heath from the Airport. I was getting confused with a midweek diagram.
Yes, 2125 from the Airport. It was 195115.
1H45 2016 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport is 195125 - just arrived at the Airport.
Interesting, as that diagram was one of the three remaining Sprinter-operated up to last Sunday - however, I was expecting it, and the other two Sprinter diagrams to go 195 from today. But then I thought the Liverpools might have gone 195, too.
195125 on the 2151 not running in service from the Airport at all now, much to my disappointment.
It seems that, contrary to what was said on 'Journey Check' earlier, the 2016 has been terminated at the Airport, and the 2151 has been cancelled altogether.
According to RTT, the stock off the 2016 is going to be combined with the 2251 departure, in order to get it back to Liverpool.
Possibility of an 8-car 156?
EDIT: When I wrote the above, I hadn't seen JonathanH's post, above. So the 2251 certainly isn't going to be an 8-car 156, if it's combined with the 2151 it can only be 5- or 6-car 195 formation - but that presumes the 2116 ex-Liverpool is going to be a 195, if it isn't someone's going to come unstuck.
Last edited:
Think you might be reading that wrong - Traksy has 'PJ46' - think it will go to Newton Heath on the back of 5J46 with the incoming working from Preston. The driver and guard have just got off and appear to be going passenger on 2F14.
You're right, of course. I'd misread the platform number as 4 (for the cancelled 2151), I see that the 2051 went from P4.
Glenn1969
Established Member
The arrival is showing as P3 on RTT
To conclude the story 195117 has just arrived at the Airport on 1U91 2109 Preston to Manchester Airport and will couple to 195125.
Guess the conclusion is that the Sunday Barrow / Windermere services are now all 195s but only one of the Liverpools.
Guess the conclusion is that the Sunday Barrow / Windermere services are now all 195s but only one of the Liverpools.
There have been noticeably fewer cancellations today on Airport to Barrow/Windermere/Liverpool than yesterday, but particularly on Liverpools. Perhaps we ought to have a thread entitled 'Why are Northern allowed to cancel Saturday Services seemingly at will?'.
Everything has now almost completed today's journeys, so I think this list of cancellations is probably complete.
On Liverpools, 1116, 1416, 1716 Liverpool - Airport cancelled, 1248, 1551, 1851, 2151 Airport - Liverpool cancelled.
On Barrow/Windermere, 1047 Barrow - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1308 Windermere - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1447 Barrow - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1947 Barrow - Airport cancelled up to Preston. 1334 Airport - Barrow cancelled to Preston, 1533 Airport - Preston cancelled to Preston, 1633 Airport - Barrow cancelled after Preston, 1733 Airport - Windermere cancelled to Preston, 2046 Preston - Barrow cancelled.
(The 2046 Preston to Barrow is considered by Northern a continuation of the 1933 ex-Airport, but NR sees them as separate services, probably because there is a change of unit at Preston.)
The stock which should have worked the 2046 ex-Preston actually went (according to RTT) ECS to Barrow, but there was never anything on Northern's 'Journey Check' to suggest the journey had operated other than in public service.
I'm a little dubious about the 1535 Oxenholme - Windermere and the Windermere to Oxenholme part of the 1606 Windermere - Airport. According to RTT they operated, and there was never anything on 'Journey Check' to suggest otherwise, but I'm always a little suspicious when journeys happen to 'fall' off the tracking.
Everything has now almost completed today's journeys, so I think this list of cancellations is probably complete.
On Liverpools, 1116, 1416, 1716 Liverpool - Airport cancelled, 1248, 1551, 1851, 2151 Airport - Liverpool cancelled.
On Barrow/Windermere, 1047 Barrow - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1308 Windermere - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1447 Barrow - Airport cancelled after Preston, 1947 Barrow - Airport cancelled up to Preston. 1334 Airport - Barrow cancelled to Preston, 1533 Airport - Preston cancelled to Preston, 1633 Airport - Barrow cancelled after Preston, 1733 Airport - Windermere cancelled to Preston, 2046 Preston - Barrow cancelled.
(The 2046 Preston to Barrow is considered by Northern a continuation of the 1933 ex-Airport, but NR sees them as separate services, probably because there is a change of unit at Preston.)
The stock which should have worked the 2046 ex-Preston actually went (according to RTT) ECS to Barrow, but there was never anything on Northern's 'Journey Check' to suggest the journey had operated other than in public service.
I'm a little dubious about the 1535 Oxenholme - Windermere and the Windermere to Oxenholme part of the 1606 Windermere - Airport. According to RTT they operated, and there was never anything on 'Journey Check' to suggest otherwise, but I'm always a little suspicious when journeys happen to 'fall' off the tracking.
Last edited:
I'm a little suspicious about the fact that the diagram 195125 was operating is scheduled to finish at Lime Street (I think) but tonight finished at Newton Heath. It will be interesting to see what happens in future weeks.
This morning 195125 has emerged on
1C50 0522 Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness and 195117 is on 5F91 0524 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Manchester Airport making it almost look like the cancellation of 1F96 was intended to balance stock up.
The early Liverpool to Manchester Airport train was cancelled and 1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street and return is 195007 on its own. 195001 is parked at Allerton.
195119+195124 on 1F92 0748 Wilmslow to Liverpool Lime Street
1C50 0522 Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness and 195117 is on 5F91 0524 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Manchester Airport making it almost look like the cancellation of 1F96 was intended to balance stock up.
The early Liverpool to Manchester Airport train was cancelled and 1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street and return is 195007 on its own. 195001 is parked at Allerton.
195119+195124 on 1F92 0748 Wilmslow to Liverpool Lime Street
Last edited:
Boysteve
Member
Today the 17:15 Liverpool -Man Airport ran normally arriving a few minutes late at 18:34. However the return working (1F93, 18:50 departure to Lime Street) was cancelled due 'to a problem with the doors'. Instead the unit is running ECS as 5F93 and RTT shows bound for Lime Street.
156420
Member
195001+007 out today coupled on the 4 car diagram
6 car 195 out on 06:13 Wilmslow etc.
6 car 195 out on 06:13 Wilmslow etc.
- Status