New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[43055]

Something ran from Norwich to Etches Park today timed as a 15x. Could this be the first 156 coming across?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O63439/2019-11-27/detailed

 

[LowLevel]

Something ran from Norwich to Etches Park today timed as a 15x. Could this be the first 156 coming across?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O63439/2019-11-27/detailed

Not necessarily. Etches Park has been doing some of the heavier work on 156s for GA recently owing to Crown Point being in a state of transition. Engine changes etc. It would be at least the 3rd in the last couple of months.

 

[59CosG95]

Not necessarily. Etches Park has been doing some of the heavier work on 156s for GA recently owing to Crown Point being in a state of transition. Engine changes etc. It would be at least the 3rd in the last couple of months.

It was indeed a 156; namely 156409.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I've seen a number of GA 156's at Derby in the past; didn't they once come for wheel turning?

As to the original question, does anyone know if it is the first to be transferred or has it come to relieve Crown Point's workload?

 

[Mugby]

The latest EMR consultation document regarding future service plans for December 2020 and beyond states that Meridians will continue in use on London services until the bi-modes arrive.

Where does this leave the reported transfer in of Class 180s, has it now been dropped? Was it ever a serious proposal?

 

[swt_passenger]

The latest EMR consultation document regarding future service plans for December 2020 and beyond states that Meridians will continue in use on London services until the bi-modes arrive.

Where does this leave the reported transfer in of Class 180s, has it now been dropped? Was it ever a serious proposal?

Weren’t the 180s replacing HSTs?

 

[LowLevel]

The latest EMR consultation document regarding future service plans for December 2020 and beyond states that Meridians will continue in use on London services until the bi-modes arrive.

Where does this leave the reported transfer in of Class 180s, has it now been dropped? Was it ever a serious proposal?

It makes no difference to it whatsoever. Yes they're still coming.

 

[greatvoyager]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but according to Rail Magazine the 170/6 units moving to EMR will lose their centre cars, which will move to XC.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/east-midlands-railway-plans-spring-2020-start-for-class-170s

 

[Jozhua]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but according to Rail Magazine the 170/6 units moving to EMR will lose their centre cars, which will move to XC.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/east-midlands-railway-plans-spring-2020-start-for-class-170s

That makes surprising sense!

XC 170's desperately need the capacity, guessing the two cars will become three. Any chances of three cars becoming four?

I do worry if the seating on the 170's is going to be a drop from the 156's... I guess the center doors will help the trains keep better time when busy though, so for a commuter service they could be more suitable!

 

[LowLevel]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but according to Rail Magazine the 170/6 units moving to EMR will lose their centre cars, which will move to XC.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/east-midlands-railway-plans-spring-2020-start-for-class-170s

That's a bad start - apparently Abellio had identified that there was likely to be a shortfall in capacity as per Central to EMT and were in talks to keep the extra centre cars. I wonder what they'll come up with instead.

 

[91108]

That's a bad start - apparently Abellio had identified that there was likely to be a shortfall in capacity as per Central to EMT and were in talks to keep the extra centre cars. I wonder what they'll come up with instead.

My guess for what they’ll come up with instead is : they will keep some 153’s....

 

[sprinterguy]

That makes surprising sense!

XC 170's desperately need the capacity, guessing the two cars will become three. Any chances of three cars becoming four?

It's only six additional vehicles for XC, it's not going to result in any 4-car sets. Presumably the additional vehicles will either be added to XC's six 170/5s or to six of their seven 2-car 170/1s.

I do worry if the seating on the 170's is going to be a drop from the 156's... I guess the center doors will help the trains keep better time when busy though, so for a commuter service they could be more suitable!

122 seats in a 2-car 170, 136 seats in a PRM-TSI compliant class 156, so there will be a bit of a drop in total seating capacity. Still a welcome increase compared to a single 153, though!

That's a bad start - apparently Abellio had identified that there was likely to be a shortfall in capacity as per Central to EMT and were in talks to keep the extra centre cars. I wonder what they'll come up with instead.

This does seem to leave EMR with only a very small future fleet (9 units) of 3-car 170s. I presume that these will be concentrated on the Nottingham - Norwich service, with 2-car units everywhere else.

 

[91108]

This does seem to leave EMR with only a very small future fleet (9 units) of 3-car 170s. I presume that these will be concentrated on the Nottingham - Norwich service, with 2-car units everywhere else.

The peak morning services into Nottingham from Worksop are 3 car and full of passengers. The peak time Nottingham/Lincoln’s could do to be 3 car as they are often full and standing. EMR really needs 3 car 170’s on most routes with the 2 car units replacing the single 153 diagrams for Crewe and a lot of the Lincoln routes. It’s not going to be practical to run 2x2 car 170’s as a lot of the platforms on the Robin Hood Line and Lincoln - Notts and Derby-Crewe are only 3 cars long. If anything, the Norwich’s will be 2 car 170.
Therefore if they don’t get more 3 car 170’s I think they’ll have to keep 153’s to strengthen certain trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

The peak morning services into Nottingham from Worksop are 3 car and full of passengers. The peak time Nottingham/Lincoln’s could do to be 3 car as they are often full and standing. EMR really needs 3 car 170’s on most routes with the 2 car units replacing the single 153 diagrams for Crewe and a lot of the Lincoln routes. It’s not going to be practical to run 2x2 car 170’s as a lot of the platforms on the Robin Hood Line and Lincoln - Notts and Derby-Crewe are only 3 cars long. If anything, the Norwich’s will be 2 car 170.
Therefore if they don’t get more 3 car 170’s I think they’ll have to keep 153’s to strengthen certain trains.

Pity some Robin Hood line platforms can only handle 3 cars. Otherwise rationally those 3 car Worksop - Nottingham services would become a pair of 2-car 170s. I wonder whether there's a solution involving Selective Door Opening on a 4 car set?

 

[LowLevel]

The 170s have selective door opening so that's not a problem in theory - itll just take a bit of time to train the passengers to be in the right place. The main issue is whether there's enough units.

There's going to be some short platform fun from December anyway, several trains into Lincoln are strengthened to 4 cars from 2 as a result of the removal of single 153s, including at least one working on the Sleaford to Lincoln line which is 2 car only.

 

[Qwerty133]

It's only six additional vehicles for XC, it's not going to result in any 4-car sets. Presumably the additional vehicles will either be added to XC's six 170/5s or to six of their seven 2-car 170/1s.

They'll almost certainly be added to the /5s as there are a few differences between the /1s and the /5 and 6s.

This does seem to leave EMR with only a very small future fleet (9 units) of 3-car 170s. I presume that these will be concentrated on the Nottingham - Norwich service, with 2-car units everywhere else.

I imagine that Norwich-Nottingham may well only get 2 car units as other routes probably need the 3rd coach more. Additionally with the departure of the 153s it is likely that they'll need to be a level of flexibility as to the allocation of the 3 car units to allow for services to be strengthened depending on daily events.

 

[sprinterguy]

They'll almost certainly be added to the /5s as there are a few differences between the /1s and the /5 and 6s.

Yeah that makes sense.

The 170s have selective door opening so that's not a problem in theory - itll just take a bit of time to train the passengers to be in the right place. The main issue is whether there's enough units.

EMR should ultimately have 33 2-car Turbostars, which compares with a base fleet of 21 x 1-car 153s and 15 x 2-car 156s (Though there've been some small changes to that now): Not sure how many 158s operate outside of the Liverpool - Norwich service to bolster this number, or how many 153s work as pairs which could potentially be covered by a single 2-car unit.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I look forward to seeing how the Skegness line is resourced in the summer...not. It would have been nice to have a larger fleet of 3 car sets, to be able to concentrate the capacity where it is most needed. For all the spin, it just seems like we aren't going to get any benefit out of this in terms of a better product, or more seats for the routes that actually need them like Nottingham to Worksop, Nottingham to Norwich, and the Lincoln line.

From December we are already keeping 4 addition 153s to be used on services which are currently 2 cars (or in some cases booked for 3) but have been horrifically over capacity for years now, the 0736 Matlock to Nottingham and 1721 Nottingham to Lincoln and 1726 Nottingham to Worksop being the main beneficiaries here! Given that the 3 car sets will be spread few and far between I'd be very interested to see how they get utilised, there are services from Norwich which will require a 3 car set given the drop in seating capacity, the 0856, 0957 and 1057 departures for example would be essential for a 3 car which would tie up 1/3 of the fleet away from Nottingham before you even get started. I'm not entirely sure there will be a huge amount of slack in the fleet for running 2x2 car sets either as overall we have a drop of actual units from 63 to 38 and vehicles from 105 to 99 (had we kept the centre cars it would have been a flat 105 to 105 vehicles). Losing Nottingham to Liverpool only gains you approximately 13 units, and 26 vehicles overall, but most of those vehicles are being used to bolster routes in rural Lincolnshire from 1 to 2 vehicles, or routes from a sporadic service to an all day service so you can discount them from being easily used either.

It all seems to me like its a shoestring budget and we're going to be having capacity issues within the next few years, major capacity issues with regards to Skegness in the Summer given that the flexibility to use HSTs will vanish.

 

[LowLevel]

I look forward to seeing how the Skegness line is resourced in the summer...not. It would have been nice to have a larger fleet of 3 car sets, to be able to concentrate the capacity where it is most needed. For all the spin, it just seems like we aren't going to get any benefit out of this in terms of a better product, or more seats for the routes that actually need them like Nottingham to Worksop, Nottingham to Norwich, and the Lincoln line.

From December we are already keeping 4 addition 153s to be used on services which are currently 2 cars (or in some cases booked for 3) but have been horrifically over capacity for years now, the 0736 Matlock to Nottingham and 1721 Nottingham to Lincoln and 1726 Nottingham to Worksop being the main beneficiaries here! Given that the 3 car sets will be spread few and far between I'd be very interested to see how they get utilised, there are services from Norwich which will require a 3 car set given the drop in seating capacity, the 0856, 0957 and 1057 departures for example would be essential for a 3 car which would tie up 1/3 of the fleet away from Nottingham before you even get started. I'm not entirely sure there will be a huge amount of slack in the fleet for running 2x2 car sets either as overall we have a drop of actual units from 63 to 38 and vehicles from 105 to 99 (had we kept the centre cars it would have been a flat 105 to 105 vehicles). Losing Nottingham to Liverpool only gains you approximately 13 units, and 26 vehicles overall, but most of those vehicles are being used to bolster routes in rural Lincolnshire from 1 to 2 vehicles, or routes from a sporadic service to an all day service so you can discount them from being easily used either.

It all seems to me like its a shoestring budget and we're going to be having capacity issues within the next few years, major capacity issues with regards to Skegness in the Summer given that the flexibility to use HSTs will vanish.

I think the direct Stansted service from Norwich will help take a bit of the load off the 3 busy morning departures.

The franchise award also suggests use of heritage rolling stock on a seasonable basis which presumably will be targeted at Skegness though we have no idea what they have in mind there.

 

[Jozhua]

The peak morning services into Nottingham from Worksop are 3 car and full of passengers. The peak time Nottingham/Lincoln’s could do to be 3 car as they are often full and standing. EMR really needs 3 car 170’s on most routes with the 2 car units replacing the single 153 diagrams for Crewe and a lot of the Lincoln routes. It’s not going to be practical to run 2x2 car 170’s as a lot of the platforms on the Robin Hood Line and Lincoln - Notts and Derby-Crewe are only 3 cars long. If anything, the Norwich’s will be 2 car 170.
Therefore if they don’t get more 3 car 170’s I think they’ll have to keep 153’s to strengthen certain trains.

I think keeping some 153's would actually be quite sensible. They aren't the best units, but they're flexible and can inter-work with the 170's. They could just be attached to peak services to give them some more capacity and then given some TLC during the daytime/weekends to keep them going reliably. Even then, some breakdowns can be afforded if attached to another unit! (As long as the brakes don't lock on, which has happened to a train I was on before.)

The Matlock - Derby route is getting to the point where on the 7.30 it could do with about 3-carriages, as with many of the commuter routes in the East Midlands! If passengers were well informed these vehicles were kept to bolster busy trains, I'm sure it would be well accepted.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I think the direct Stansted service from Norwich will help take a bit of the load off the 3 busy morning departures.

The franchise award also suggests use of heritage rolling stock on a seasonable basis which presumably will be targeted at Skegness though we have no idea what they have in mind there.

Yes I suppose there is that, but it still leaves us as a mostly 2 car railway, with fewer seats than before.

 

[222001]

I'm not entirely sure there will be a huge amount of slack in the fleet for running 2x2 car sets either as overall we have a drop of actual units from 63 to 38 and vehicles from 105 to 99 (had we kept the centre cars it would have been a flat 105 to 105 vehicles).

It should be 44 170 units - 11 3 car sets, and 33 2 car sets = 99 vehicles. Still not enough really.

 

[ashworth]

That's a bad start - apparently Abellio had identified that there was likely to be a shortfall in capacity as per Central to EMT and were in talks to keep the extra centre cars. I wonder what they'll come up with instead.

It is beginning to look like a repeat of what happened at the beginning of EMT when they lost the central carriages from the 158’s to Northern. EMT was always operated with a less than adequate amount of stock when so much from Central Trains went to the West Midlands leaving especially many of the Lincolnshire routes with single class 153 trains. It sounds like the East Midlands local services are going to be treated the same again. The West Midlands get yet more new trains, even Northern receive new trains, yet the East Midlands are to get their old 170’s back without most of their centre carriages. I do hope that as with EMT, EMR doesn’t get everyone else’s 170’s that are in the poorest condition.

Where are the 158’s due to go which are currently on the Norwich to Liverpool route. Although older than the 170’s EMT did a good refurbishment and they still look better than many other trains of similar age. I hope EMR don’t let those go too quickly if they are short of capacity with just 2 carriage 170’s.

 

[raetiamann]

We're we not promised more seats? It seems the formulae on here pretty much all show a reduction on EMR Regional trains.

 

[mt4958]

And yet too many seats on the EMR Electrics - due to the refurbishment missing the deadline they will be inheriting a 3 + 2 configuration from Greater Anglia

 

[222001]

And yet too many seats on the EMR Electrics - due to the refurbishment missing the deadline they will be inheriting a 3 + 2 configuration from Greater Anglia

That will only be temporary though.

 

[TheBigD]

It should be 44 170 units - 11 3 car sets, and 33 2 car sets = 99 vehicles. Still not enough really.

Assuming things haven't changed too* much from the original franchise announcement each route needs a minimum of...

Matlock-Norwich 8 units
Crewe-Newark 5 units
Nottingham-Worksop 4 units
Nottingham-Skegness 5 units
Leicester-Grimsby 6 units
Barton on Humber 1 unit
Newark-Lincoln 1 unit
Lincoln-Doncaster 2 units
Lincoln-Peterborough 3 units

So a minimum of 35 units required without any strengthening, peak hour extras, or summer Skegness services. Assuming 9 diagrams from 11 for the 3 car sets and 29 from 33 for the 2 car sets there doesn't seem to be a lot of slack in the fleet.

* I'm aware that the Matlock-Norwich are now expected to be split at Nottingham and I've not accounted for the peak extra Grantham-Nottingham services announced in the consultation.

Happy to be corrected on matters though.

 

[greatvoyager]

That makes surprising sense!

XC 170's desperately need the capacity, guessing the two cars will become three. Any chances of three cars becoming four?

I do worry if the seating on the 170's is going to be a drop from the 156's... I guess the center doors will help the trains keep better time when busy though, so for a commuter service they could be more suitable!

I would assume the 170/6 centre cars will go into the 6 170/5s, but I could be wrong. Either way XC passengers will benefit from increased capacity.
Could they not refit the 170s to have more seats somehow? If not, 170s have more standing room, although I understand lots of EMR regional services are rather long to stand the whole way.

 

[TheBigD]

Could they not refit the 170s to have more seats somehow? If not, 170s have more standing room, although I understand lots of EMR regional services are rather long to stand the whole way.

If EMR rejig the interiors similar to what XC did post 2008 but without first class or catering lockers they could increase capacity from 122 to 129 for the 2 cars and from 196 to 209 for the 3 cars.

* I've used the current figures for the 170/5 and 170/6 currently used by West Mids, other 170 variants have different seating capacities.

 

[greatvoyager]

If EMR rejig the interiors similar to what XC did post 2008 but without first class or catering lockers they could increase capacity from 122 to 129 for the 2 cars and from 196 to 209 for the 3 cars.

* I've used the current figures for the 170/5 and 170/6 currently used by West Mids, other 170 variants have different seating capacities.

Thanks for the info.