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MEN article-"Northern Rail is crumbling from the inside out and things are only going to get worse"

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southernyoshi

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?
 
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Bletchleyite

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?

It certainly hasn't helped by adding 2 more trains to an already overcongested route - but the primary issue as I see it is trying to do too much with too few staff, too few units and too little infrastructure. The pre-1997 timetable, which was roughly half the present service, was reliable. It might not be necessary to go that far everywhere (for instance I'd not reduce Southport to a messy 1h15 ish service as it had back then, but I would consider reducing it to hourly clockface with a few peak extras, say) but it does provide a guide to what will run without issues - then just max out all the train lengths with the units it frees up.
 

Jozhua

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I've actually found things have been getting just a little bit more reliable in my experience! Less cancellations, less short forms, which feels like nothing but a miracle.

Ultimately it's the old time triangle of project management. Cost, Speed and Quality; pick two. I think Cost, Frequency/Coverage and Reliability/Quality would probably apply to the railways. The government isn't willing to spend the money, fare income barely covers operating costs, so we have to pick low cost. We currently also have high frequency/coverage, which leaves reliability/quality as the corner of the triangle that must be lost. No amount of 'private sector competition' or 'efficiency savings' can get you something for nothing.

I really have to agree with everyone who bangs this drum, simplify, simplify, simplify is the only way out of this mess!
Honestly, I think the DfT under Failing Grayling shares the majority of the responsibility for this. The Northern franchise that was hashed out involved pie in the sky thinking for butter in the gutter pricing. The DfT needs to stop hiding behind private enterprise and getting it to soak up all of the blame for its failings, if Shapps had any sense, he would get the management of Northern to the table and after shouting at them for their share of the incompetence, re-negotiating the terms of the franchise to something more reasonable.

Northern could have a lot going for it. Some brand new trains, death to Pacers, eventually 769's, little bit more electrification circa 2019, etc. We just need some realism, patience and willing to all collectively make some sacrifices to our timetables in order to get trains that run reliably. If places that lost direct trains gained some fantastic, reliable shuttles that ran earlier/later to compensate and were timed well for connections, it could very well be a boost!
 

Killingworth

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In the last 20 years, when the railways have been operating virtually the same amount of rolling stock, my station has more than quadrupled the numbers of paying passengers. Neighbouring Dronfield has probably gone up over tenfold! Plus those who haven't paid.

No wonder we're seeing pressure. The increases would be even higher if trains were more reliable and had enough seats.
 

talltim

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The whole network is that congested. It’s genuinely surprising how much Thameslink affects Sheffield for example, despite the closest they come is Bedford.

Mind you, York ROC do make some baffling regulating decisions of their own.
Most of the delays I see at Sheffield are caused by the Castlefield corridor. Issues with London trains tend to be caused by infrastructure failures rather than delays imported from Thameslink and they are usually pretty reliable, helped by having a good layover time. XC are also pretty reliable within a 5 minute late window.
 

Raul_Duke

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Most of the delays I see at Sheffield are caused by the Castlefield corridor. Issues with London trains tend to be caused by infrastructure failures rather than delays imported from Thameslink and they are usually pretty reliable, helped by having a good layover time. XC are also pretty reliable within a 5 minute late window.

30 minute layover helps.

I’m not saying it’s exclusively Thameslink, but it’s surprising how much effect it has.

I disagree about the infrastructure re: London trains. I think in the past year there’s been the wires down once and a broken rail at Hendon that I can recall. I’m sure there’s a few more.

I doubt you’ve seen many arrive into Sheffield properly on time, it’s quite rare unless they’re booked 5/10 minutes at Derby.

Whilst not exclusively TL, it’s common enough so as to be unremarkable to be ten minutes late passing Harpenden because you’ve been regulated for them swapping fast to slow and back again, getting into their core in the booked order, which is understandable, if not irritating.

That then puts you out of path for Kettering Sth Jn (Hopefully not for much longer) Knighton, Trent, Sheet Stores with all the freight Derby with the XC locals and then finally Dore where Northern and TPE run more of a “best case scenario,” than a timetable anyway. It all snowballs from there.

If you leave Leicester on time then you’ve the best chance of Sheffield on time.
 
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Killingworth

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Wish I could agree with you, but looking at XC yesterday about 30 trains were 10 minutes or more late. As a former regular user I know that's about par for the route.

TPE are certainly more likely to be late eastbound, but they don't use the Castlefield corridor, and nor do the Northern stoppers. The eastbound EMR services are the worst, but you can't blame Castlefield for westbound delays.

Sheffield picks up accumulated delays from anywhere, everywhere and from anything and everything.
 

Bovverboy

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A few cancellations already this morning, down to both rolling stock and driver shortages.
 

Bovverboy

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It's all well and good saying revert back to an old frequency such as every 1h15 to Ormskirk to save a unit but the reality is that with everything else being hourly through Preston and times having changed since May 18 the paths probably don't exist at varying times each hour and it would cause more problems than it would solve.

Reverting to a 1h15m headway on Preston - Ormskirk wouldn't save a unit anyway. The headway was reduced to an hour, not by inserting a full extra unit into the circuit, but by using a bit of slack in the Blackpool South - Colne circuit.
 

Freemo

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A few cancellations already this morning, down to both rolling stock and driver shortages.
In my experience for the last two and a half years, the peak Leeds/Nottinghams used to be characteristically late on arrival but almost always ran, a reliable Sheffield to Leeds backbone in events like Beast from the East bringing down wires around Wakefield. Staffing issues seemed to coincide with the May 19 timetable, then add 158s off for refurbs and the attempted 195 introduction has been the nail in the coffin.

Still nothing like cross-Manchester but a sign that even formerly smug Northern commuters are starting to struggle.
 

mandub

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I would suggest looking at the pre-1998 timetable for a start, but simplify further. Probably no need to bustitute anything, but you might need buses to add capacity.

The most important thing is to slacken off crew diagrams and keep them really simple. Much of the delay on the "bad TOCs" at the moment seems to be caused by overambitious crew diagrams. Rarely is the unit not there, it tends to be hanging around for the crew. So for instance if they have to do crew changes in central Manchester, institute a minimum layover (on top of PNB) of say 30 minutes between trains to make sure they are ready, and have "hot spares" in the messroom. Cut the service to the level that you can do this while maxing out train lengths.

This world certainly help.
The Liverpool via Warrington, the Alderley Edge, the Crewe via MIA & the Hazel Groves all change over at at Oxf Rd in my link and mostly it's 12 -20 mins allowed between getting there and relieving another driver.
And if anything the rostering is getting tighter & more & more breaks being scheduled at Oxf Rd.

1 small example. The 1st Oxf Rd to Lime St at 06.22. Used to be booked pass on 06.01 from Picc so nearly 20 mins at Oxf Rd before go into service. Now you're booked on 06.09 from Picc (a not exactly reliable 195 service). If the 06.09 is cancelled or late you don't get to Oxf Rd in time.
It was cancelled last time I did the job, I checked & noticed the cancellation & walked down to Oxf Rd instead, but I don't have to and we're not supposed to walk. Northern saved 8 mins on the rostering in that diagram but is it worth it. I don't believe so
 

Bletchleyite

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Reverting to a 1h15m headway on Preston - Ormskirk wouldn't save a unit anyway. The headway was reduced to an hour, not by inserting a full extra unit into the circuit, but by using a bit of slack in the Blackpool South - Colne circuit.

It would improve punctuality by splitting the services and putting that slack back in. I believe an extra unit has now been inserted, by the way - there is a now a 60-something minute layover at Preston between a Colne and Ormskirk working.
 

SteveM70

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?

It should only have been built either in conjunction with Piccadilly p15/16 or with a cast-iron guarantee that they’d be built soon after
 

Bovverboy

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It would improve punctuality by splitting the services and putting that , or it may have treated as a hot spare slack back in. I believe an extra unit has now been inserted, by the way - there is a now a 60-something minute layover at Preston between a Colne and Ormskirk working.

That ECS working from Newton Heath has existed for quite a while, it's not something which is new to the December timetable, but it wasn't obvious what its purpose was. It didn't show on RTT that it was an extra set on the Colne/Ormskirk/BPS circuit but in effect it might have been, or perhaps treated as a hot spare, to be used if necessary. It does now show as an extra diagram, but only until the 1626 Ormskirk has gone, after which it does a Blackburn at 1714, and doesn't get replaced after that.
It's only fractionally over a 60-minute dwell, it really was uncomfortably tight before. Having said that, looking back over what happened yesterday, there was only one instance of the ex-Colne being significantly late, it would have been about ten minutes down setting off for Ormskirk on the previous routine. At another point the ex-Colne was six minutes late in, but the Ormskirk left four minutes late nevertheless. I can only think that the Ormskirk was held to maintain the connection, or there was a staff member or two transferring between the two trains. On the face of it the latter situation would seem to defeat the point of the extra set, but at least the Ormskirk would be ready to go.
 

Bovverboy

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?

The one thing which made me personally dubious about the value of the Ordsall Chord was the fact that if it was so worthwhile to have a through service Manchester Victoria - Manchester Oxford Road/Manchester Piccadilly/Manchester Airport we could have had one anyway, reversing at Salford Crescent (which is what a handful of TPE services still do, although I don't think any make Salford Crescent a public call) - but, of course, we didn't. The Ordsall Chord hasn't created any journey opportunities which weren't there before, all it's done is reduce the journey time by about eight minutes.
 

Ianno87

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The one thing which made me personally dubious about the value of the Ordsall Chord was the fact that if it was so worthwhile to have a through service Manchester Victoria - Manchester Oxford Road/Manchester Piccadilly/Manchester Airport we could have had one anyway, reversing at Salford Crescent (which is what a handful of TPE services still do, although I don't think any make Salford Crescent a public call) - but, of course, we didn't. The Ordsall Chord hasn't created any journey opportunities which weren't there before, all it's done is reduce the journey time by about eight minutes.

No capacity during the day to do reversal at Salford Crescent.

The real point of the chord is indeed to reduce the Leeds-Manchester journey time (to Vic rather than Picc) but then still give the train sonewhere to go/get to the Airport afterwards.

And the services do now seem popular as a Vic-Airport link.
 

QueensCurve

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Article in today's Manchester Evening News

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/northern-rail-crumbling-inside-out-17434320

Once again, worrying stuff about an failing TOC with some interesting insider insights that I haven't seen discussed on here especially:

The old saw about incompatible couplers. While it is easy to criticise from outside, it surely cannot be beyond the wit of man to produce couplers that are compatible. It seems particularly egregious for two new and similar trains made by the same manufacturer to be incompatible. Why should it be cast in stone that EMUs have 110V control systems while DMUs have 24V?

You do realise that back in the bad old days of BR, every loco or unit could couple and be used to rescue in the event of a failure.

Not entirely true. I recall travelling one morning in the 1970s on the early Liverpool to Euston - the one that used to call at Hartford. It was hauled by a Class 87 (air brake only). The train that failed in front, somewhere between Rugby and Roade as I recall, was formed of vacuum braked stock. We moved forward to push it through before the incompatibility was recognise. Heralding a long wait for a rescue locomotive.
 

Mogster

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As a daily Wigan - Oxford Road user the service has definitely got much worse over the last couple of months.

Shortforming is much more common, the regular 20 minute evening delays have now become cancellations. The lack of staff really seems to be biting now. Last night I was an hour late home due to a staff related cancellation, this evening I’m waiting at Oxford Road for 30 minutes due to another staff related cancellation...
 

SteveM70

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The real point of the chord is indeed to reduce the Leeds-Manchester journey time (to Vic rather than Picc) but then still give the train sonewhere to go/get to the Airport afterwards

And to avoid TPE trains having to cross the whole of the Piccadilly throat
 

175001

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They were used on a daily morning DMU diagram from Crewe till about 2012? Then the service was extended to Bolton.

I've not known it used in years now
 

Llama

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It is inexcusable that there wasn't a platform built on the Up Bolton line at Salford Crescent, when GMPTE were considering options for Crescent there were three main proposals IIRC - one was to move the whole station Northwards towards Frederick Rd so that there would be two platforms on both the Atherton lines and the Bolton lines and two (or more) bay platforms could be provided, with Calder Valley trains amongst others extended to those bays. This would allow the junctions at Windsor Bridge North and South to be remodelled.

The second option was to leave the layout broadly the same but provide a platform on the Up Bolton line which would reduce conflicts by reducing platform dwell time for some trains.

The third option, the one chosen, was to lengthen and declutter the existing platforms. This needed some very minor signalling work, removal of the old ramp down to the platforms, the old waiting room and booking office, the installation of a lift and a new booking office built at street level.
 

yorksrob

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In my experience for the last two and a half years, the peak Leeds/Nottinghams used to be characteristically late on arrival but almost always ran, a reliable Sheffield to Leeds backbone in events like Beast from the East bringing down wires around Wakefield. Staffing issues seemed to coincide with the May 19 timetable, then add 158s off for refurbs and the attempted 195 introduction has been the nail in the coffin.

Still nothing like cross-Manchester but a sign that even formerly smug Northern commuters are starting to struggle.

I've found that reliability has suffered on this route recently as well.
 

Matt_pool

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A lot of the Northern services on the Man Oxford Road - Liverpool line going east to west are delayed by late running EMR and LNWR services!

Most mornings the train I get into Lime Street is held at Wavertree Junction to allow a late running LNWR train to go through first which is really annoying. You can be sat there for 5+ minutes sometimes. Why not just let the Northern service go on to Lime Street and arrive on time? The LNWR is already running late so why should a train load of Northern passengers have to be delayed too!
 

frodshamfella

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?

It does seem to have been a bit of a mistake, adding to congestion.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It seems to me, a total outsider, as though the Ordsall Chord & the through links it enabled have caused massively more problems than it solved & should never have been built - too simplistic or is there more to Northern’s problems than WM-style too-long-routes?

Suddenly, the engineer Mark Whitby seems not to "have talked with forked tongue" with his strenuous solitary objection to the Ordsall Chord project.
 
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