West Lothian buses

[duffers2324]

Merry Christmas everyone hope you are all well and have had a lovely day

 

[overthewater]

For six months competition First have gone right into the red, yet its operating cost have gone up 20% Extra buses on 600 and 23 were not added until after these accounts finished etc

 

[Volvodart]

£1 million of the increase was writing down the value of property and most of the rest due to having more drivers and having to pay more for drivers.

 

[overthewater]

£1 million of the increase was writing down the value of property and most of the rest due to having more drivers and having to pay more for drivers.

What property are we talking about?

Service changes in August 2018, overall neutral, So we must be on about Jan 2019 changes, Surly the three extra buses needed on 22, 26 and 27, did not cost million and half pound? No 38 went back to every 15mins at this point in time however that is Midland bluebird. It wasn't until after accounts finished that big extra buses were added like the 600 to Whitburn, x23 being every 30mins 21 every 30mins from Armdale to Whitburn. another six buses. Plus the tours.

I think Million has to have gone on competition money lost to LCB how could three extra daytime buses and six drivers cost that much?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What property are we talking about?

Service changes in August 2018, overall neutral, So we must be on about Jan 2019 changes, Surly the three extra buses needed on 22, 26 and 27, did not cost million and half pound? No 38 went back to every 15mins at this point in time however that is Midland bluebird. It wasn't until after accounts finished that big extra buses were added like the 600 to Whitburn, x23 being every 30mins 21 every 30mins from Armdale to Whitburn. another six buses. Plus the tours.

I think Million has to have gone on competition money lost to LCB how could three extra daytime buses and six drivers cost that much?

Don’t think you’re quite reading it.

Revenue is down and there’s obviously higher costs with considerably more staff (28 more). Interesting that revenue isn’t further down - 10% but the actual detail on how it reduced week on week is what’s needed.

However, if you crudely say that the 10% has increased to 25 or 30%, then you have to wonder how LCB is doing.

 

[overthewater]

Blast I mist that point about revenue being down. LCB must be just as bad, there brought new coaches etc

 

[Weemidi135]

Blast I mist that point about revenue being down. LCB must be just as bad, there brought new coaches etc

they bought vehicles but first didn’t in that time period some can’t compare too much in that sense

 

[Jordan Adam]

they bought vehicles but first didn’t in that time period some can’t compare too much in that sense

Albeit First did transfer quite a number of vehicles about so that at least on paper will make a difference.

 

[Weemidi135]

Albeit First did transfer quite a number of vehicles about so that at least on paper will make a difference.

In assets yes but not profit

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In assets yes but not profit

The First figure for revenue was 10% down. Obviously, that’s a full year so hence why I was suggesting that the figure is perhaps more like 30%.Interesting that most of the lost revenue was from concessions.

If that’s right and their revenue is about £3m on LCB, you wonder about their losses.

 

[overthewater]

Interesting that most of the lost revenue was from concessions..

Which means what some of us have been is on the money, First has managed to keep most of its fare paying passengers.

 

[Journeyman]

Which means what some of us have been is on the money, First has managed to keep most of its fare paying passengers.

Purely from observation, I think First are losing quite a few passengers to the X38. Lothian seem to be doing quite well, it's gradually getting busier.

 

[overthewater]

Ive seen a real mix bag, some busy lcb, some busy first, some empty LCB, some Empty First. Kirkliston has been lost to LCB but first has managed to hold Winchburgh.

 

[Journeyman]

Ive seen a real mix bag, some busy lcb, some busy first, some empty LCB, some Empty First. Kirkliston has been lost to LCB but first has managed to hold Winchburgh.

Well, I live in Winchburgh, and I haven't used a single 38 since the X38 started running.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, I live in Winchburgh, and I haven't used a single 38 since the X38 started running.

?????

 

[Journeyman]

?????

That was in response to the point that First have "held" Winchburgh. I was just pointing out that I've happily abandoned them completely. The benefit of tickets valid on the bigger Lothian network has led me to use the X38 instead. I doubt I'm alone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That was in response to the point that First have "held" Winchburgh. I was just pointing out that I've happily abandoned them completely. The benefit of tickets valid on the bigger Lothian network has led me to use the X38 instead. I doubt I'm alone.

Not certain the observations of either party can be taken to prove anything when viewed seen through the prism of personal bias....

 

[overthewater]

We have a winner!

 

[Journeyman]

Not certain the observations of either party can be taken to prove anything when viewed seen through the prism of personal bias....

Well, that's the point I'm making. Lots of people reckon First are winning this war, lots reckon Lothian is. I was just contributing an observation that disproves a point someone else was making. I'm not saying that proves anything big or conclusive, just that it's all ongoing, and it's very hard to tell what will ultimately happen.

Full disclosure: I'm a former First employee forced out by bullying, so I'm not neutral in this.

 

[overthewater]

Personally I dont think either one is winning and both are clearly losing bucket loads of money. LCB only hope is the Main Edinburgh network is bailing it out, with First hopeful its cutting is loses or breaking even with tour revenue.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, that's the point I'm making. Lots of people reckon First are winning this war, lots reckon Lothian is. I was just contributing an observation that disproves a point someone else was making. I'm not saying that proves anything big or conclusive, just that it's all ongoing, and it's very hard to tell what will ultimately happen.

Full disclosure: I'm a former First employee forced out by bullying, so I'm not neutral in this.

Why I made the point on BOTH parties.

However if you look at the First figures, whilst clearly a substantial loss, it raises some very interesting questions on LCB’s performance.

 

[Journeyman]

Personally I dont think either one is winning and both are clearly losing bucket loads of money. LCB only hope is the Main Edinburgh network is bailing it out, with First hopeful its cutting is loses or breaking even with tour revenue.

The thing is, Lothian's network in Edinburgh is very profitable, so they can afford to play the long game and invest here. As long as it doesn't create an overall loss, they can pump money into expanding. First's financial figures are quite alarming, and suggest they might be in big trouble. With shareholders expecting a return and a much more penny-pinching environment, I wonder what they will do.

 

[overthewater]

First are planning another tour to take more money of Lothian. Here is the thing, is the loses at First smaller or Bigger than the losses on LCB network PLUS the losses from the tours?

 

[Journeyman]

Why I made the point on BOTH parties.

However if you look at the First figures, whilst clearly a substantial loss, it raises some very interesting questions on LCB’s performance.

Possibly, but Lothian is a very different animal, operating in a generally much stronger position, with a profitable monopoly within Edinburgh that no-one is realistically going to be able to destroy. If they continue to make an overall profit, they can afford to take a hit on West Lothian for some time, possibly until First throw in the towel.

First now have a tiny network in Edinburgh - you can't really even call it that - and they're going to be very unattractive to anyone who wants to travel from West Lothian to a destination beyond the city centre. I think First are in a very weak position, and Lothian are just playing the long game. They seem able to do so.

 

[Journeyman]

First are planning another tour to take more money of Lothian. Here is the thing, is the loses at First smaller or Bigger than the losses on LCB network PLUS the losses from the tours?

The thing is, the tour market in Edinburgh is massive and expanding all the time, so I don't really think the level of competition will make Lothian lose any sleep. There's probably plenty of room for both of them right now. First are probably making easy money off it, but I doubt Lothian are losing any sleep over it. I suspect it's barely made a dent in their tour revenue.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Personally I dont think either one is winning and both are clearly losing bucket loads of money. LCB only hope is the Main Edinburgh network is bailing it out, with First hopeful its cutting is loses or breaking even with tour revenue.

It’s a case of who decides they’ve had enough. I don’t know if First believe they’ll break even even with the tours but whether Lothian think they’re better off not missing out on that revenue and losing on the competitive services. Similarly, will the margin pressure from group signal a withdrawal though I do doubt that or it’ll be open season.

How many vehicles do LCB run?

 

[overthewater]

The thing is, the tour market in Edinburgh is massive and expanding all the time, so I don't really think the level of competition will make Lothian lose any sleep. There's probably plenty of room for both of them right now. First are probably making easy money off it, but I doubt Lothian are losing any sleep over it. I suspect it's barely made a dent in their tour revenue.

If First can make 2 million a year from the tours then First will just happily sit this out.

How many vehicles do LCB run?

First still has more buses on the routes compared to LCB, and there is still a few gaps on the LCB network, so to make another dent it would have to put in more resources.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Possibly, but Lothian is a very different animal, operating in a generally much stronger position, with a profitable monopoly within Edinburgh that no-one is realistically going to be able to destroy. If they continue to make an overall profit, they can afford to take a hit on West Lothian for some time, possibly until First throw in the towel.

First now have a tiny network in Edinburgh - you can't really even call it that - and they're going to be very unattractive to anyone who wants to travel from West Lothian to a destination beyond the city centre. I think First are in a very weak position, and Lothian are just playing the long game. They seem able to do so.

Lothian can do that but if they’re burning through £3m a year and First decide to sit it out, it begs some interesting questions. It may be that First simply can’t be seen to walk away.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If First can make 2 million a year from the tours then First will just happily sit this out.




First still has more buses on the routes compared to LCB, and there is still a few gaps on the LCB network, so to make another dent it would have to put in more resources.

Yeah but how many vehicles do they actually have?

 

[Journeyman]

Lothian can do that but if they’re burning through £3m a year and First decide to sit it out, it begs some interesting questions. It may be that First simply can’t be seen to walk away.

Where does this £3m a year come from? Is this an actual quoted figure? I believe we still don't know what LCB's finances look like.

First have walked away plenty of times before...