West Lothian buses

[Edirim]

Lothian tour buses are having redundancies so that tells you all in tours land is not OK.

 

[overthewater]

Isn't that because its winter?

 

[Journeyman]

I should also point out West Lothian Day ticket is only £4.60 with First and Fiver with LCB

But if you buy it as an m-ticket bundle, it's only £3.50 on Lothian. And for a fiver, you get city-wide travel on top. That's vastly better value.

 

[Journeyman]

Isn't that because its winter?

Yeah, a lot of their staff are seasonal.

 

[Journeyman]

What about say Fauldhouse to the centre single, or centre to Broxburn or east calder to town, or town to centre. I appreciate your analysis on the monthly and day tickets, and your subjective view of what is bread and butter. I also appreciate TGW points and analysis. It's fair sensible comments. As you know I work for LCB and in the past have maybe taken a more partisan views. But what I see daily and hear from our customers,. It is not as black and white as people may think. Can we do better absaloutley, could we advertise better yep. Could our presentation be better yep. Could our punctuality etc be better yep. And on weekly and daily tickets yes. But is it as bad and poor value as made out absaloutley not!

Well, I'm really impressed with the X38, and for my travel needs, the tickets are more flexible and much better value. I can't be the only one who thinks that way!

 

[Weemidi135]

Lothian tour buses are having redundancies so that tells you all in tours land is not OK.

Are you sure about this ??

 

[Stopper]

Anybody who still has any doubts about the EX2 clearly has an agenda against Lothian. It has been quite the success in Linlithgow.

 

[Baileygirl]

Where Lothian Country have zones First have graduated fares, so within one zone you could have various First fares from £1.60 to £3.40. So First could be charging £3.40 and Lothian Country £1.70 for the same journey. Plus First have returns. So cheaper for the passenger on the Lothian Country bus but more profit for First in theory. Also concessions are worked on these fares also. Going over the Zone boundaries it is sometimes cheaper by First. Especially Ratho Station to Edinburgh for example - £1.60 by First £2.70 by Lothian Country

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Anybody who still has any doubts about the EX2 clearly has an agenda against Lothian. It has been quite the success in Linlithgow.

If the EX2 is prospering, then good. I was always a little surprised that a small town with a good rail link (when it works) could sustain a service. That’s not some agenda - that’s just experience. It was a brave punt by LCB with substantial investment on two routes with a competing rail service but if they’ve been innovative and spotted a niche ignored by others, then they should be applauded as such.

However, before accusing folks of agendas, it’s not like you’re exactly a beacon of impartiality. There are too many partisan views on this thread but I ain’t one of them

But if you buy it as an m-ticket bundle, it's only £3.50 on Lothian. And for a fiver, you get city-wide travel on top. That's vastly better value.

However, I’m sure you’d agree that having to buy a bundle in advance isn’t appropriate for everyone. Also, whilst the facility for onward travel has value to you, it may be more limited as invariably, people don’t like to change and go for direct journeys.

Both firms are pursuing different fare models/strategies and some fares will work for some people and not others.

 

[cnjb8]

If the EX2 is prospering, then good. I was always a little surprised that a small town with a good rail link (when it works) could sustain a service. That’s not some agenda - that’s just experience. It was a brave punt by LCB with substantial investment on two routes with a competing rail service but if they’ve been innovative and spotted a niche ignored by others, then they should be applauded as such.

However, before accusing folks of agendas, it’s not like you’re exactly a beacon of impartiality. There are too many partisan views on this thread but I ain’t one of them


However, I’m sure you’d agree that having to buy a bundle in advance isn’t appropriate for everyone. Also, whilst the facility for onward travel has value to you, it may be more limited as invariably, people don’t like to change and go for direct journeys.

Both firms are pursuing different fare models/strategies and some fares will work for some people and not others.

The poor rail service is probably why it works.

 

[Weemidi135]

The poor rail service is probably why it works.

That’s one of the reasons also goes through Springfield which is where most of the commuters are picked up

 

[Stopper]

The poor rail service is probably why it works.

exactly. Plus if you’re going to RBS Gogarburn, Maybury or Usher Hall area, then EX2 is better than the train. That’s before you get to how ScotRail absolutely shafted Linlithgow at the recent timetable changes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The poor rail service is probably why it works.

Hence my aside of (when it works). The issue of reliability on Scotrail was what I alluded to.

That’s one of the reasons also goes through Springfield which is where most of the commuters are picked up

I would expect that to be the case. It's the age old principle - if you have a direct route and have better penetration of suburban areas, then the time/price benefit of rail is removed.

I'm just a little surprised (but pleasantly surprised) that a relatively small town (even with the 'burbs) that has a regular rail service can sustain such a route.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

exactly. Plus if you’re going to RBS Gogarburn, Maybury or Usher Hall area, then EX2 is better than the train. That’s before you get to how ScotRail absolutely shafted Linlithgow at the recent timetable changes.

I am genuinely ignorant on this one but in what way did the service from Linlithgow to Edinburgh change?

 

[Journeyman]

I am genuinely ignorant on this one but in what way did the service from Linlithgow to Edinburgh change?

You now can't travel direct from Linlithgow to Stirling, as the Edinburgh to Dunblane service skips Linlithgow and Polmont for much of the day. It's been replaced by trains to Glasgow via Cumbernauld, which are much less useful.

It's not had much effect in the Edinburgh direction, but Linlithgow to Edinburgh has a really serious overcrowding problem, and reliability recently has been dreadful. I don't travel on that route any more, but if I did, the EX2 would be tempting.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I am genuinely ignorant on this one but in what way did the service from Linlithgow to Edinburgh change?

Dunblane services were removed from stopping at Linlithgow and Polmont (Now non stop Falkirk Grahamston to Edinburgh Park) Monday to Saturday off peak only and the Glasgow QS to Falkirk Grahamston was extended all stops to Edinburgh in its place. The number of trains stopping I think has increased but the timings are not that useful compared to before.

This means that Larbert, Stirling, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane are only directly served from Linlithgow and Polmont at peak times to have the increased capacity to/from Edinburgh but it’s only a handful of trains. It’s also served late evenings and on a Sunday when the Glasgow QS to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld only runs Glasgow QS to Cumbernauld or Falkirk Grahamston

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You now can't travel direct from Linlithgow to Stirling, as the Edinburgh to Dunblane service skips Linlithgow and Polmont for much of the day. It's been replaced by trains to Glasgow via Cumbernauld, which are much less useful.

It's not had much effect in the Edinburgh direction, but Linlithgow to Edinburgh has a really serious overcrowding problem, and reliability recently has been dreadful. I don't travel on that route any more, but if I did, the EX2 would be tempting.

Dunblane services were removed from stopping at Linlithgow and Polmont (Now non stop Falkirk Grahamston to Edinburgh Park) Monday to Saturday off peak only and the Glasgow QS to Falkirk Grahamston was extended all stops to Edinburgh in its place. The number of trains stopping I think has increased but the timings are not that useful compared to before.

This means that Larbert, Stirling, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane are only directly served from Linlithgow and Polmont at peak times to have the increased capacity to/from Edinburgh but it’s only a handful of trains. It’s also served late evenings and on a Sunday when the Glasgow QS to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld only runs Glasgow QS to Cumbernauld or Falkirk Grahamston

So (and apologies if I'm oversimplifying) the service to Edinburgh hasn't fundamentally changed. It's travel north/westwards that has. The EX2 is therefore capitalising on proximity (out in the 'burbs and perhaps to places like RBS) and some issues with reliability. If they sort that out, you'd then the capacity issue on the trains would be addressed in part?

As I say, I'm a little surprised only as when you have a parallel rail service of reasonable frequency (assuming the frequency actually occurs), express bus services have a challenge to compete especially when the main station is relatively centrally located as Waverley is. Perhaps helps when you have places like York to Leeds where both stations aren't exactly centrally located!

 

[overthewater]

But if you buy it as an m-ticket bundle, it's only £3.50 on Lothian. And for a fiver, you get city-wide travel on top. That's vastly better value.

How many people are stock piling day tickets?

Where Lothian Country have zones First have graduated fares, so within one zone you could have various First fares from £1.60 to £3.40. So First could be charging £3.40 and Lothian Country £1.70 for the same journey. Plus First have returns. So cheaper for the passenger on the Lothian Country bus but more profit for First in theory. Also concessions are worked on these fares also. Going over the Zone boundaries it is sometimes cheaper by First. Especially Ratho Station to Edinburgh for example - £1.60 by First £2.70 by Lothian Country

So lcb will not be making as much as first then off the oap passes. Of course for most passengers a first day is the best vaule ticket.


Long live the ex2 however ex1 should have worked but it was not done probably.

 

[Journeyman]

How many people are stock piling day tickets?

Oh come on, you only need to buy five of them to get them at that price. I get through five in a couple of weeks. It's hardly "stockpiling".

Of course for most passengers a first day is the best vaule ticket.

But First's network in and around Edinburgh is tiny if you need to go beyond the city centre, or even around it. I don't know why you write this off so much. When First had a monopoly, I never bought their day tickets - I'd just buy a return and buy a Lothian day ticket when I got into town.

 

[Journeyman]

As I say, I'm a little surprised only as when you have a parallel rail service of reasonable frequency (assuming the frequency actually occurs), express bus services have a challenge to compete especially when the main station is relatively centrally located as Waverley is. Perhaps helps when you have places like York to Leeds where both stations aren't exactly centrally located!

Waverley is centrally located for lots of things, but not for a lot of Edinburgh's office space. The EX2 has unsurprisingly captured a lot of travellers who previously would have had to walk or drive to Linlithgow station, then take a bus or tram to their workplace once in town.

 

[Driver362]

Ex 2 is doing OK. Reliability between haymarket and St Andrews Square isn't good enough due to lack of time (I drive them). Apart from that it's good with numbers steadily increasing particularly in Springfield we do rather well there. But my original point and the cause of my partisan views is because of statements like "first are way cheaper /better value just aren't true in a lot of cases. It's difficult to sit and read that when it's not the case. And I still haven't seen much evidence from the poster of said comments to support that theory. I really can't be bothered going into every ticket difference as my interest in buses is not so much in how they are run but on how they work and what there like to drive. But I know enough of the running side to know first aren't as cheap as some would suggest!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ex 2 is doing OK. Reliability between haymarket and St Andrews Square isn't good enough due to lack of time (I drive them). Apart from that it's good with numbers steadily increasing particularly in Springfield we do rather well there. But my original point and the cause of my partisan views is because of statements like "first are way cheaper /better value just aren't true in a lot of cases. It's difficult to sit and read that when it's not the case. And I still haven't seen much evidence from the poster of said comments to support that theory. I really can't be bothered going into every ticket difference as my interest in buses is not so much in how they are run but on how they work and what there like to drive. But I know enough of the running side to know first aren't as cheap as some would suggest!

As I said, Springfield is the area where you'd hope/expect to pick up passengers. It's the advantage of the service (and serving RBS) over and above the rail service. In fact, it's that aspect (the directness of service, not changing etc) that makes me question the overall attractiveness of the wider Lothian inter-availability. We Brits.... we don't like (to) change.

Away from the EX2, isn't the reality that as both firms have different fare structures etc, there will be some people who win on one operator, depending where that line is drawn. However, there are clearly examples of those who will benefit using LCB and some who benefit with First. Arguably, that is a smart approach from LB rather than simply trying to compete by being 10p cheaper or whatever but it does mean that in other instances, they will dip out. Of course, if you're a concessionary pass holder, then you tend to get the first bus that comes along and the ability to travel to Edinburgh and then onward to Dalkeith, Oxgangs or wherever is neither here nor there. I do tend to agree with OTW that the stock piling of day tickets would be more the exception than the rule.

 

[Journeyman]

But my original point and the cause of my partisan views is because of statements like "first are way cheaper /better value" just aren't true in a lot of cases. It's difficult to sit and read that when it's not the case. And I still haven't seen much evidence from the poster of said comments to support that theory.

Spot on. I'd say First are probably quite a lot cheaper if ALL the following conditions apply:

• You travel to work by bus every day at peak times; and
• You use buses for leisure purposes at weekends; and
• You don't ever need to change onto Lothian's network when you get into the city.

I have no doubt that at the moment, that's a big group of people, but it may not always stay that way. People's work habits are changing and railway season ticket sales are falling, so if you depend entirely on that group, you're going to struggle, as it's getting smaller. My work travel habits changed radically in 2019, and I don't see myself going back to daily commutes any time soon.

First have lost me as a customer because they offer nothing for someone like me, who makes a lot of bus journeys to a mix of places, but at fairly randomly spaced intervals. They don't serve a lot of places I want to go. @overthewater seems determined to present me as some sort of random edge case, but I'm not. Lothian are providing exactly what I've wanted for ages, and I can't be alone in that. This sort of travel is a growing market.

Because buying separate Lothian and First tickets in the past was expensive and inconvenient, I often drove to Ingliston Park and Ride and used the tram to get into town if I needed to go to several places. Now I use the X38 instead.

Quite apart from anything else, First have been decidedly mediocre for years. If they want me back, they really need to up their game.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Spot on. I'd say First are probably quite a lot cheaper if ALL the following conditions apply:

• You travel to work by bus every day at peak times; and
• You use buses for leisure purposes at weekends; and
• You don't ever need to change onto Lothian's network when you get into the city.

I have no doubt that at the moment, that's a big group of people, but it may not always stay that way. People's work habits are changing and railway season ticket sales are falling, so if you depend entirely on that group, you're going to struggle, as it's getting smaller. My work travel habits changed radically in 2019, and I don't see myself going back to daily commutes any time soon.

First have lost me as a customer because they offer nothing for someone like me, who makes a lot of bus journeys to a mix of places, but at fairly randomly spaced intervals. They don't serve a lot of places I want to go. @overthewater seems determined to present me as some sort of random edge case, but I'm not. Lothian are providing exactly what I've wanted for ages, and I can't be alone in that. This sort of travel is a growing market.

Because buying separate Lothian and First tickets in the past was expensive and inconvenient, I often drove to Ingliston Park and Ride and used the tram to get into town if I needed to go to several places. Now I use the X38 instead.

Quite apart from anything else, First have been decidedly mediocre for years. If they want me back, they really need to up their game.

Given what you've said before, I don't think you will ever go back. And you're right, First were some way away in terms of what the travelling public should expect.

Now, I fully take on board that Lothian give you what you want. Are you alone in this? Probably not. Are you typical of bus users....again, probably not. That's not a criticism, I assure you. Most people DON'T make bus journeys to a mix of places at random intervals. Some do, and you're one of them and it's great to have that flexibility but most just don't. If it were, Edinburgh wouldn't have the classic hub and spoke bus network. Most people travel to work in the same location, every day - that's despite the increase in home working or the like. For pensioners, they are such creatures of habit, you know when they're going to travel and when they going to go home almost to the exact journey.... it really is that predictable. And of course, this is all very Edinburgh centric - a great many journeys will be taking place only within Bathgate/Livi so the extended Lothian availability counts for nought.

You are clearly one of the people that benefits from the LCB/LB set up. There are others who don't and that's why both parties are now locked in with their respective customer bases. As you rightly suggested before, only if the real detail was published by LB in their accounts (rather than an opaque group set of figures) would you get the full picture. However, it will certainly be interesting to see the next set of accounts to see, even with the lack of detail, how the overall picture is with LB; however, that will be six months away.

 

[lastbus]

absaloutley? What’s that?

 

[Journeyman]

Just to prove I'm not completely biased, I'm currently on a First 38 from Linlithgow to Winchburgh. It's the only journey I'm making today, so I didn't feel like waiting 20 minutes for an X38.

However, the X38 is 60p cheaper, and this bus is in a terrible state, with loose trim and ingrained dirt everywhere.

 

[overthewater]

Spot on. I'd say First are probably quite a lot cheaper if ALL the following conditions apply:

• You travel to work by bus every day at peak times; and
• You use buses for leisure purposes at weekends; and
• You don't ever need to change onto Lothian's network when you get into the city.

I have no doubt that at the moment, that's a big group of people, but it may not always stay that way. People's work habits are changing and railway season ticket sales are falling, so if you depend entirely on that group, you're going to struggle, as it's getting smaller. My work travel habits changed radically in 2019, and I don't see myself going back to daily commutes any time soon.

First have lost me as a customer because they offer nothing for someone like me, who makes a lot of bus journeys to a mix of places, but at fairly randomly spaced intervals. They don't serve a lot of places I want to go. @overthewater seems determined to present me as some sort of random edge case, but I'm not. Lothian are providing exactly what I've wanted for ages, and I can't be alone in that. This sort of travel is a growing market.

I do think in your casebook that its smaller than the main bread and butter and the three points your highlighted are linked to alot of passengers, especially to user who have stick with First. That does NOT mean your example is on the utter fringe, Let's say Even if its 20% that still not much compared to the 80%, most of the other passengers.

Because buying separate Lothian and First tickets in the past was expensive and inconvenient, I often drove to Ingliston Park and Ride and used the tram to get into town if I needed to go to several places. Now I use the X38 instead.

That means you now a new passengers, in that respect. If other people were like you then LCB has generated new passengers!? I wonder if how many from Kirkliston have made a straight swap?

Quite apart from anything else, First have been decidedly mediocre for years. If they want me back, they really need to up their game.

I doubt First will.

You are clearly one of the people that benefits from the LCB/LB set up. There are others who don't and that's why both parties are now locked in with their respective customer bases. As you rightly suggested before, only if the real detail was published by LB in their accounts (rather than an opaque group set of figures) would you get the full picture. However, it will certainly be interesting to see the next set of accounts to see, even with the lack of detail, how the overall picture is with LB; however, that will be six months away.

Its Statement, and the only way either party can win now is if the other side thinks sod this for a game of soldiers and pulls out OR LCB introduces better day/weekly ticket to combat first or first starts operating within the city.

 

[A330Alex]

One thing LCB could do better at is advertising that their m-ticket bundles are valid for six months - something I doubt many know.

For students/infrequent travellers or those who only commute 3/4 days a week I think it’s quite beneficial.

If you’re not travelling five days a week, you’re not having to pay for days you’re not using.

Plus if you’re an infrequent traveller the discount is not bad.

 

[Journeyman]

One thing LCB could do better at is advertising that their m-ticket bundles are valid for six months - something I doubt many know.

Yeah, a lot of people on here seemed to think you had to use them on consecutive days.

 

[oldman]

... that makes me question the overall attractiveness of the wider Lothian inter-availability. We Brits.... we don't like (to) change.

Both operators run more-or-less the same corridors from WL into town, not serving the two main hospitals and most university and college campuses. Those nurses and students may have no choice.