East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[northwichcat]

Virgin seating plan here: http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

Blue seats mean you can't see out of the window. Note there's even 3 FC seats in blue. If you buy a £10 advance you can almost guarantee it'll be in a blue seat.

Looking at the seats I don't understand the pink priority seats either. Shouldn't these be near the door, toilet or luggage rack not half way down the carriage and near nothing?

 

[WillPS]

The Meridians are the most gorgeous InterCity trains on the network in my opinion. The lighting particularly is perfect - too many trains (including the HST and 158 refurbs) fall into the trap of being clinically bright. The seats are perfect for me too.

Justin - you seem to have a slightly holier than thou attitude, can you not accept that there is a difference of opinion?

 

[asylumxl]

Usually those who criticise a class don't travel on them enough to even have a valid opinion.

Infact, that's probably true for a vast chunk of enthusiasts.

I detesT the EMT HST refurb having travelled on it over and over and over again as a commuter, and would much rather have a Meridian.

 

[Justin Smith]

it's the compromise for the excellent crash protection they offer.

Don't get me going on that red herring.
Train travel is statistically the second safest form of travel (after ships I believe), and that was before the thick window pillars of bleedin' Pendolinos.....
Personally I'd rather run the extra 1 in 10 billion chance I might get killed by having slimmer window pillars, and have a more comfortable journey.

Interesting point, I wonder whether the appallingly claustrophobic interiors of Pendolinos have actually killed anyone ?
How ?
Well there must be people to whom the awful interior of the Pendolino acts as the extra bit of deterent (over and above the high price and other passengers personal stereos....) to persuade them to go by car.
Result ?
More deaths....
I can remember when there was all that trouble with Gauge Corner Cracking and the railway sysytem went into melt down. Someone did a study that the excessive speed restrictions imposed by Railtrack persuaded so many people to drive instead that statistically some people did actually die !

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Usually those who criticise a class don't travel on them enough to even have a valid opinion.

Infact, that's probably true for a vast chunk of enthusiasts.

I detesT the EMT HST refurb having travelled on it over and over and over again as a commuter, and would much rather have a Meridian.

I live in Sheffield so I frequently travel by Meridian, just not all the way to London ! That's too much of a nightmare.... Plus I can go ECML via Retford or Doncaster.

 

[HITMAN]

Don't get me going on that red herring.
Train travel is statistically the second safest form of travel (after ships I believe), and that was before the thick window pillars of bleedin' Pendolinos.....
Personally I'd rather run the extra 1 in 10 billion chance I might get killed by having slimmer window pillars, and have a more comfortable journey.

Interesting point, I wonder whether the appallingly claustrophobic interiors of Pendolinos have actually killed anyone ?
How ?
Well there must be people to whom the awful interior of the Pendolino acts as the extra bit of deterent (over and above the high price and other passengers personal stereos....) to persuade them to go by car.
Result ?
More deaths....
I can remember when there was all that trouble with Gauge Corner Cracking and the railway sysytem went into melt down. Someone did a study that the excessive speed restrictions imposed by Railtrack persuaded so many people to drive instead that statistically some people did actually die !
.

Well usage has increased significantly since they brought in the pendos so I don't think you can say that people have been turned away by them. Its not too fun if your not sat by a window, but I'm around 6ft and theres enough room for my to sit inside fine.

Its air travel I think which is the safest, but part of it staying that way is through developing trains to be safer. A crash in a mark 2 or mark 1 carriage would usually result in the carriage collapsing, whereas we saw how good the 390 carriages did at Grayrigg.

 

[northwichcat]

Well usage has increased significantly since they brought in the pendos so I don't think you can say that people have been turned away by them.

Virgin have also taken paths previously used by local trains to run more services, so people doing journeys like Crewe/Wilmslow/Stockport to Manchester are travelling on VT services instead of FNW/Northern.

 

[Bungle]

I detesT the EMT HST refurb having travelled on it over and over and over again as a commuter

You're not the only one! I use the MML fairly regularly, and I've heard comments on numerous occasions from other passengers (usually commuters in suits) remarking about the half-a*sed refurb. "Tatty" is one word I've heard more than once. It's understandable that EMT don't want to spend a fortune on them, but they do look very much like what they are - a 1970s train with a bit of new carpet and seat covers thrown in, and a lick of paint.

For the record, I'm indifferent. As long as I get my reserved seat and have remembered to charge my iPod so I can spend my journey listening to my own music instead of someone else's, I don't care. HSTs look tired but have more comfortable seats; the Meridians are are a bit more cramped and often smell like the gents' toilets at chucking out time in a nightclub, but they are brighter and more aesthetically pleasing. (In fact I'd rather have a Meridian with its slightly noisy engine than yet ANOTHER Mk3 with a wheel flat...)

I still struggle to understand this argument about windows. People seem to get really, really wound up about it. So what if you can't quite see out of the window? Read a newspaper or a book and chill out with a beer. Life's too short. It's as if some people have never seen a field full of sheep and cows before...

I don't know about the technical side with the 158s, particularly the power issue that someone mentioned earlier, but from a 'Joe Public' point of view EMT have done a very nice job. Clean, bright and comfortable - perfectly suited to the job.

On the subject of the Pendolinos, having compared the pictures of Grayrigg and Ufton Nervet/Southall/Ladbroke Grove, I know which one I'd rather be travelling in. Regardless, I find them to be extremely pleasant.

 

[Greenback]

I likme to look out of a window, others like to listen to their ipod. I am unhappy if I can't see out of the window, I am sure others would be unhappy if for any reason they couldn't listen to their music. Each to their own!

 

[Bungle]

Personally I would rather have a window seat than a non-window one. Of course it's nice to look at the scenery. But I wouldn't take a detour via a totally different line and add time and train changes to my journey out of protest at the stock being used because the view might be obscured. That's when I'd reach for the newspaper and beer.

Like you say, each to their own...

 

[Geezertronic]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I've travelled on Pendo's regularly between BHI and EUS and never had any major issues with them. I always travel in Coach A and most of the time the Advance Booking system gives me a window seat with a view, although yesterday it gave me Seat 01A which is slightly misaligned but still has a window view.

In fact, the only issue I ever have is that when travelling back to Birmingham (and providing the 390 is the correct way around with Coach A leading), you can sometimes get buffeted around due to being in the leading coach. Apart from that, no issues - people moan for the sake of moaning sometimes

 

[Greenback]

No, I wouldn't do that either, but I would be narked if I got on a train and couldn't see anything - it's one of the reasons I don't like flying!

 

[Bungle]

Ah now you see, that's why you should sit up front. It's the best view in the world, I promise you - far better than any train window...!

 

[yorksrob]

The Meridians are the most gorgeous InterCity trains on the network in my opinion. The lighting particularly is perfect - too many trains (including the HST and 158 refurbs) fall into the trap of being clinically bright. The seats are perfect for me too.

Yes, that's definately a nice feature of the 222's I've noticed too. Somebody's definately taken care over the ambience. Almost like the days of tungsten lighting.

 

[ashworth]

Whilst I would rather travel between Nottingham and London with EMT, either on a HST or Meridian, for the convenience of a through journey, there have been a number of occasions in recent years when I have travelled via Grantham because there have been much better deals with AP tickets.

Although I accept that the Mk4 carriages on the ECML are to most people superior to Meridians, some of the worst seats I have ever had as far as views are concerened have been between Grantham and Kings Cross. The seats that I have regularly been allocated with an AP ticket, even though I have booked up to 3 months in advance, have had no view whatsoever. It happens on most types of modern train these days and so to travel from Sheffield to London via the ECML to get a view may not always be an advantage over EMT's Meridians

 

[Aictos]

I only used the 390s once last year on a trip to Preston from Euston and return and found the whole experience quite pleasing, okay it was first class but I was actually pleasantly surprised how nice the trains actually were.

Especially after hearing how bad they were, I was dreading them but they are nice, I especially like the way the step folds out which to someone who's yet to use Eurostar etc...is a nifty feature.

So from going from hating them to actually using them, I can safely say if they were introduced on the ECML then I wouldn't oppose them even though I like my 91s

 

[Justin Smith]

Well usage has increased significantly since they brought in the pendos so I don't think you can say that people have been turned away by them. Its not too fun if your not sat by a window, but I'm around 6ft and theres enough room for my to sit inside fine.

Its air travel I think which is the safest, but part of it staying that way is through developing trains to be safer. A crash in a mark 2 or mark 1 carriage would usually result in the carriage collapsing, whereas we saw how good the 390 carriages did at Grayrigg.

Many people think the Pendolinos are claustrophobic so it's not unreasonable to assume that some of those people will decide to go by car or whatever.
As an example, when I travel with my wife we do alter our travel habits because she doesn't particularly like trains, esp second class. We usually go by car instead which is far far far more dangerous, as Frank Duckworth's league table clearly shows.

I thought ship travel was safer than air travel, but that was only from memory.

As for the crash worthiness of coaches, Mk1s were relatively poor by modern standards, I thought Mk2s were monoque construction so much better. Mk3s are a very safe design indeed. The relatively low numbers getting killed in some of their high speed crashes showed this.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I only used the 390s once last year on a trip to Preston from Euston and return and found the whole experience quite pleasing, okay it was first class but I was actually pleasantly surprised how nice the trains actually were.

Especially after hearing how bad they were, I was dreading them but they are nice, I especially like the way the step folds out which to someone who's yet to use Eurostar etc...is a nifty feature.

So from going from hating them to actually using them, I can safely say if they were introduced on the ECML then I wouldn't oppose them even though I like my 91s

That say's it all really.
Meridians aren't quite so bad in First Class. Though I have to say I wasn't very impressed by the service on EMT First Class.
They took so long to bring the biscuits that my tea had gone tepid, I couldn't be bothered to wait to be served a refill so went and paid for one at the buffet !
Actuall now I come to think about it, I've been served Toffee (that's tea and coffee in the same cup) twice! I don't know how they managed that but a mate of mine had the same thing, though that was under MML I think.

 

[Pumbaa]

Don't get me going on that red herring.
Train travel is statistically the second safest form of travel (after ships I believe), and that was before the thick window pillars of bleedin' Pendolinos.....
Personally I'd rather run the extra 1 in 10 billion chance I might get killed by having slimmer window pillars, and have a more comfortable journey.

Interesting point, I wonder whether the appallingly claustrophobic interiors of Pendolinos have actually killed anyone ?
How ?
Well there must be people to whom the awful interior of the Pendolino acts as the extra bit of deterent (over and above the high price and other passengers personal stereos....) to persuade them to go by car.
Result ?
More deaths....

That is a completely idiotic point to make. Thick window pillars are because they tilt, extra support, all that guff. I'm sure someone can provide a more technical description, but I know it's to support the more spherical car shape required by the tilt.

Lament the pillars all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that if it wasn't for the Pendos, we'd still be at 110 on WCML and they wouldn't have helped increase traffic levels. They played (and still do) a big role in VTs marketing having shiny new trains - Joe public like shiny new trains.

As Geezertronic said, a lot of people who travel on them every day find them fine, and quite likeable. Before anybody quotes the PF survey at me, it's vaguely flawed in that mostly leisure travellers are interviewed and they don't use the best sampling method. Just because you have a chip on your shoulder Justin doesn't make them crap trains. They're really rather bloody good at what they do.

 

[Justin Smith]

You're not the only one! I use the MML fairly regularly, and I've heard comments on numerous occasions from other passengers (usually commuters in suits) remarking about the half-a*sed refurb. "Tatty" is one word I've heard more than once. It's understandable that EMT don't want to spend a fortune on them, but they do look very much like what they are - a 1970s train with a bit of new carpet and seat covers thrown in, and a lick of paint.

For the record, I'm indifferent. As long as I get my reserved seat and have remembered to charge my iPod so I can spend my journey listening to my own music instead of someone else's, I don't care. HSTs look tired but have more comfortable seats; the Meridians are are a bit more cramped and often smell like the gents' toilets at chucking out time in a nightclub, but they are brighter and more aesthetically pleasing. (In fact I'd rather have a Meridian with its slightly noisy engine than yet ANOTHER Mk3 with a wheel flat...)

I still struggle to understand this argument about windows. People seem to get really, really wound up about it. So what if you can't quite see out of the window? Read a newspaper or a book and chill out with a beer. Life's too short. It's as if some people have never seen a field full of sheep and cows before...

I don't know about the technical side with the 158s, particularly the power issue that someone mentioned earlier, but from a 'Joe Public' point of view EMT have done a very nice job. Clean, bright and comfortable - perfectly suited to the job.

On the subject of the Pendolinos, having compared the pictures of Grayrigg and Ufton Nervet/Southall/Ladbroke Grove, I know which one I'd rather be travelling in. Regardless, I find them to be extremely pleasant.

I agree with you about wheel flats. I thought Network rail were supposed to be clamping down on it because it was bashing hell out of their track ?

On the looking out of the window thing I think you`ll find it a natural human need to be able to see out. The first American astronauts infamously rebelled when told that the first space craft would have no windows, despite the fact they`d be strapped in anyway and couldn`t do anything if the mission went tits up.
I know I want to see out of the window and have natural light. I get frustrated and p****d off if I can only see plastic all around me.

On the subject of your ipod, do you have it set at a level that other passengers can hear, or not ?

 

[Pumbaa]

Mk3s are a very safe design indeed. The relatively low numbers getting killed in some of their high speed crashes showed this.

A number reduced even further by Pendolinos!

 

[EM2]

I know I want to see out of the window and have natural light. I get frustrated and p****d off if I can only see plastic all around me.

Do you use the Underground much (and I mean the bits of it that *are* underground)?

 

[Justin Smith]

That is a completely idiotic point to make. Thick window pillars are because they tilt, extra support, all that guff. I'm sure someone can provide a more technical description, but I know it's to support the more spherical car shape required by the tilt.

Lament the pillars all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that if it wasn't for the Pendos, we'd still be at 110 on WCML and they wouldn't have helped increase traffic levels. They played (and still do) a big role in VTs marketing having shiny new trains - Joe public like shiny new trains.

As Geezertronic said, a lot of people who travel on them every day find them fine, and quite likeable. Before anybody quotes the PF survey at me, it's vaguely flawed in that mostly leisure travellers are interviewed and they don't use the best sampling method. Just because you have a chip on your shoulder Justin doesn't make them crap trains. They're really rather bloody good at what they do.

I`d agree that it`s an idiotic point to make, but only as idiotic as saying that the wide window pillars are required to maker the trains safe. When we were in Italy we went on one of their tilting trains and they didn`t have window pillars the width of my garden path. In fact they were very comfortable and, I seem to remember, all the seats aligned with the (large) windows.
It can be done it just needs the motivation.....

 

[EM2]

Italy - the country where the Pendolino was designed and built!

 

[Pumbaa]

I`d agree that it`s an idiotic point to make, but only as idiotic as saying that the wide window pillars are required to maker the trains safe. When we were in Italy we went on one of their tilting trains and they didn`t have window pillars the width of my garden path. In fact they were very comfortable and, I seem to remember, all the seats aligned with the (large) windows.
It can be done it just needs the motivation.....

The Pendo lines in Italy have a maximum tilt of 6 degrees, the 390 here does 8. The Czech Pendo class also does 8 and has the same design as our 390. So it does require the thick window pillars - there is no escaping that fact. Also remember continental trains build to a larger gauge profile - it doesn't surprise me the seats were more comfortable!!

Voyagers/Meridians have the body profile required for 6 degrees tilt, as used by Virgin 221s.

If we want to get every Pendo seat to align to a window, there are 5 pairs of seats for every 2 complete window frames, plus two at the very end to make up the last window frame. Average of 9 windows per coach (each side), you have with that crude method of calculation 110 seats per coach. That obviously doesn't work, as the support gubbins occur every 3 window lengths. With wheelchair spaces, luggage racks and toilets, it eats into the space rapidly and you're left with at most 72 seats, average 62 or thereabouts. To make every seat align to a window, you would need to reduce the seats by 20% by taking out the window frame viewed seats (they occur 1 in 5 down each side of the coach).

You simply cannot do that - we need every ounce of capacity we can get!!

 

[Daimler]

Do you use the Underground much (and I mean the bits of it that *are* underground)?

An interesting point, and one that to my mind is counter-productive to your argument. I think that the importance of having good, large windows in trains is highlighted better than anywhere else on the Underground - even though most of the time there isn't anything to see out of the windows, the trains are still designed with a lot of large windows - more so even than normal trains!

People like to 'feel' that they can see out - if you read Christian Wolmar's book on the history of the Underground, some of the early tubes didn't have any proper windows as it was felt that they weren't necessary because the trains were underground, and these trains were so off-putting and unpopular with passengers that soon afterwards they were withdrawn/extensively modified so that even though they had no 'overground' portion of their route people could see out.

I genuinely do believe a large glass area is very important in creating a pleasant atmosphere.

 

[HITMAN]

The Pendo lines in Italy have a maximum tilt of 6 degrees, the 390 here does 8. The Czech Pendo class also does 8 and has the same design as our 390. So it does require the thick window pillars - there is no escaping that fact. Also remember continental trains build to a larger gauge profile - it doesn't surprise me the seats were more comfortable!!

Voyagers/Meridians have the body profile required for 6 degrees tilt, as used by Virgin 221s.

If we want to get every Pendo seat to align to a window, there are 5 pairs of seats for every 2 complete window frames, plus two at the very end to make up the last window frame. Average of 9 windows per coach (each side), you have with that crude method of calculation 110 seats per coach. That obviously doesn't work, as the support gubbins occur every 3 window lengths. With wheelchair spaces, luggage racks and toilets, it eats into the space rapidly and you're left with at most 72 seats, average 62 or thereabouts. To make every seat align to a window, you would need to reduce the seats by 20% by taking out the window frame viewed seats (they occur 1 in 5 down each side of the coach).

You simply cannot do that - we need every ounce of capacity we can get!!

Many people think the Pendolinos are claustrophobic so it's not unreasonable to assume that some of those people will decide to go by car or whatever.
As an example, when I travel with my wife we do alter our travel habits because she doesn't particularly like trains, esp second class. We usually go by car instead which is far far far more dangerous, as Frank Duckworth's league table clearly shows.

I thought ship travel was safer than air travel, but that was only from memory.

As for the crash worthiness of coaches, Mk1s were relatively poor by modern standards, I thought Mk2s were monoque construction so much better. Mk3s are a very safe design indeed. The relatively low numbers getting killed in some of their high speed crashes showed this.

Tbh I think plenty of Joe public are happy like I am to travel on Pendolinos, theres also quite a few people who just wanna get some work done whilst on the train or have a nap, for whom the no window seats don't present a problem. I agree that cars are a dangerous mode of transport, but the fact remains that the Pendo's and the associated upgrades have increased passenger numbers. The 3+2 seating on some communter trains is claustrophobic I think, but i'd probably say that the 390's are my favourite class in service, as the tilting makes them good fun to travel on

 

[Pumbaa]

A correction to one of my posts above - the newer lines are at 8 as well. The older lines were downgraded to 6 over comfort concerns.

 

[northwichcat]

but the fact remains that the Pendo's and the associated upgrades have increased passenger numbers.

It also remains a fact that stating facts in that way is just what the MD of Virgin Trains would like you to do as you're not stating the full facts.

The full facts are:
1. When HSTs were in operation the number of peak time seats on VT were grossly insufficient which led to many people driving to a station further away or taking another operator's service e.g. going across to Sheffield and taking Midland Mainline.
2. HSTs were unreliable with Virgin and were very frequently late or cancelled which led to a reduction in passenger numbers as people didn't want to travel with Virgin unless they had to.
3. Virgin have taken the paths of other operators' local services so more people are travelling on Pendolinos for short distances than was the case when the HSTs were in operation. They've also removed pick-up and set-down restrictions to encourage local passengers to use the Pendolinos.
4. Virgin also took the North Western Trains London paths so are taking passengers from places like Rochdale, Blackpool and Newton-le-Willows who would previously have got a direct service with another operator.
5. The long term WCML engineering works put a lot of people off travelling for a period so a return to normal patronage was seen as an increase in passenger numbers.
6. Virgin reduced the price of advance tickets to get more passengers to travel - reducing the price of train tickets is very rare in the UK.

Also remember that the Pendolinos were brought in to travel at 140mph, but due to the WCML track improvements going over budget they are limited to 125mph. Had the intention been to bring the line speed to 125mph all along it could have been done for non-tilting trains meaning all the reasons about small windows didn't need to apply.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

theres also quite a few people who just wanna get some work done whilst on the train

Most of those people would want to be at a proper table not a flip down table and some without a seat reservation actually ask the TM to find them a seat at a proper table on boarding. (The seats around the proper tables are all aligned with the windows and get full view.) In fact some people who want to work on trains put in strong complaints if their reserved seat has been doubled booked or if the seat reservation has failed meaning they don't get a proper table and they say things like they can't work at a flip down table and they've lost two hours worth of working time.

 

[Greenback]

An excellent post! I accept that not everyone finds a view out of the window important, many people also put up with the limitations of the Pendo's because it does allow them to get to their destination quickly. And of course usage has gone up compared to the traffic levels during the eyars of disruption!

 

[Geezertronic]

...(The seats around the proper tables are all aligned with the windows and get full view.)...

Not strictly accurate, according to the seating plan there are a few table seats with a restricted view in each Standard Class coach on the 390s (I sat in seats 01A and 04A in Coach A which are both listed as restricted view but you can still see out of the window ok even with the slight misalignment).

 

[MCR247]

I'd agree that it's an idiotic point to make, but only as idiotic as saying that the wide window pillars are required to maker the trains safe. When we were in Italy we went on one of their tilting trains and they didn't have window pillars the width of my garden path. In fact they were very comfortable and, I seem to remember, all the seats aligned with the (large) windows.
It can be done it just needs the motivation.....

You know the Italian pendolinos have pillars as well!