Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[farleigh]

Are the roads clogged at the moment?
Are beauty spots overcrowded?

I don't think either are true.

 

[krus_aragon]

I refer you to post #105 of this thread:

in fairness, that was a thousand(!) posts ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've found residential streets the best place to run, they are very quiet.

 

[bramling]

Are the roads clogged at the moment?
Are beauty spots overcrowded?

I don't think either are true.

No they’re not - which is in no small part because a large number of people *are* following the guidance.

It wouldn’t take much for that situation to change, and this will become a major issue when it comes to relaxing restrictions on public transport, where social distancing decimates normal capacity levels.

It may be frustrating looking at empty parks and thinking “it wouldn’t be a problem if I was there”. No problem until everyone else does the same!

 

[farleigh]

No they’re not - which is in no small part because a large number of people *are* following the guidance.

It wouldn’t take much for that situation to change, and this will become a major issue when it comes to relaxing restrictions on public transport, where social distancing decimates normal capacity levels.

It may be frustrating looking at empty parks and thinking “it wouldn’t be a problem if I was there”. No problem until everyone else does the same!

Yeah but it is all hypothesis because none of that has happened.

 

[bramling]

Yeah but it is all hypothesis because none of that has happened.

We saw a pretty good taste of what might happen on the weekend before the lockdown came in.

Much more of that and I can guarantee 100% we’d by now have seen large numbers of key workers downtooling.

 

[farleigh]

We saw a pretty good taste of what might happen on the weekend before the lockdown came in.

Much more of that and I can guarantee 100% we’d by now have seen large numbers of key workers downtooling.

That was before the lockdown so my point remains - the case you raise is pure hypothesis.

None of the key workers I know would dream of downtooling as they would feel it to be the wrong thing to do. I am sure there are some key workers who would talk in that way but you get people like that in any occupation unfortunately.

 

[bramling]

I've found residential streets the best place to run, they are very quiet.

We’ve been doing one of our normal walks, which takes us out of town and a further three miles into the countryside. We’ve found that the town part is quite busy (more so than your average bank holiday), and the first field exceptionally busy albeit with enough space to distance. Beyond that it’s been quite empty although still slightly more than one would normally expect to see. In general we have done our walks in the evening such that by about 2000 we’re not seeing anyone. In general we are still seeing way more people at the town end than would normally be expected.

London is variable. Central London is pretty dead as one would expect. However suburbs feel almost normal, especially anywhere there’s shops. Bikes galore too. Having said all that, traffic *is* down as journeys aren’t taking as long, but at times it doesn’t feel like it. Once clear of London the motorways are fairly empty as one would expect - seems to be a slight increase in vans though.

 

[bramling]

That was before the lockdown so my point remains - the case you raise is pure hypothesis.

None of the key workers I know would dream of downtooling as they would feel it to be the wrong thing to do. I am sure there are some key workers who would talk in that way but you get people like that in any occupation unfortunately.

The point about downtooling is that people already feel they’re taking some degree of risk by being at work. The lockdown is mitigating that risk to a level where most people feel as comfortable as it’s possible to be in the circumstances.

I for one will not be working if I don’t feel social distancing is adequate, and I can guarantee many others will do the same.

You cannot just look at a beauty spot under the current lockdown conditions (in many cases I believe car parks at such locations are being physically blocked off?) and conclude everything would be all right if people were allowed to drive miles to them. Many such locations get pretty busy even on normal working days, and extremely busy on bank holidays - ever been to something like the Monsal Trail on a summer Saturday?

 

[farleigh]

The point about downtooling is that people already feel they’re taking some degree of risk by being at work. The lockdown is mitigating that risk to a level where most people feel as comfortable as it’s possible to be in the circumstances.

I for one will not be working if I don’t feel social distancing is adequate, and I can guarantee many others will do the same.

That's the point - as you say the lockdown is working fine. Therefore nobody has 'downtooled'.

 

[farleigh]

Here is a cracker from The Times:

"A hospital trust was forced to intervene after nurses on their way to and from work were stopped by police and told their NHS ID badges were not sufficient proof that they were out of the house for essential reasons"

Pure muppet policing here

 

[bramling]

That's the point - as you say the lockdown is working fine. Therefore nobody has 'downtooled'.

Absolutely. A good reason why we don’t need to see people trying to manufacture ways of testing the boundaries.

If people make the effort to follow the guidance then things will continue to tick over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here is a cracker from The Times:

"A hospital trust was forced to intervene after nurses on their way to and from work were stopped by police and told their NHS ID badges were not sufficient proof that they were out of the house for essential reasons"

Pure muppet policing here

It certainly seems there are plenty of Police officers who need the sack once this is over.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Both my cousin and I are key workers for the NHS and quite frankly feel more at risk whilst at work rather than, say, my cousin who went out to the countryside and saw hardly a soul (and where the risk is therefore, much lower)

 

[bramling]

It certainly seems there are plenty of Police officers who need the sack once this is over.

I’m sure that may be the case for a few, but is there *really* the evidence to suggest it’s as many as plenty?

(Now watch me get stopped on my way home!).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And another story re the muppet plods...

Addenbrooke's intervenes as police 'stop staff on their way to work'

A newsletter from the hospital said some officers had stopped NHS staff members

www.cambridge-news.co.uk

.Addenbrooke's Hospital had to intervene after Cambridgeshire police officers allegedly stopped NHS staff on their way to work and told them their NHS ID card wasn't enough evidence of essential travel.

 

[bramling]

Both my cousin and I are key workers for the NHS and quite frankly feel more at risk whilst at work rather than, say, my cousin who went out to the countryside and saw hardly a soul (and where the risk is therefore, much lower)

I don’t think the problem is being in the countryside - indeed I’d agree it’s probably a good thing to be doing on balance. The problem is in terms of getting there. Public transport is an absolute no-no, and road introduces issues too.

The alternative is to go down some rationing route, for example certain people can go out on an allocated day, but I think this creates more problems than it solves - especially for something that’s hopefully in my going to last for a matter of a few weeks.

 

[yorksrob]

The alternative is to go down some rationing route, for example certain people can go out on an allocated day, but I think this creates more problems than it solves - especially for something that’s hopefully in my going to last for a matter of a few weeks.

But if it is going to last longer than a few weeks, any issues generated by rationing will be outweighed by the problems of people not being able to get anywhere for months on end.

Perhaps we ought top start planning for rationing just in case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if it is going to last longer than a few weeks, any issues generated by rationing will be outweighed by the problems of people not being able to get anywhere for months on end.

Perhaps we ought top start planning for rationing just in case.

Why? Just stay local. If you do, it works just fine.

Years ago you pretty much had to anyway.

 

[bramling]

But if it is going to last longer than a few weeks, any issues generated by rationing will be outweighed by the problems of people not being able to get anywhere for months on end.

Perhaps we ought top start planning for rationing just in case.

Why is it such an issue? Surely the four reasons cover most reasons why anyone *needs* to get anywhere?

The exception is course what happens as regards returning less essential workers to work, but that's an issue all of its own.

Public transport isn't going to be completely freely available for some time to come.

 

[AM9]

Why not?

So please direct me to the legislation that stipulates how many miles one can drive for exercise

He was the only one in the car. He could have lied to the officer but that's not his style. Clearly, honesty doesn't pay

Same old problem is still here. I'll try and explain again.

The guidelines speak in terms of 'reasonable' distances. The law can't and shouldn't waste time defining every parameter of every restriction it invokes, - especially when changes are made in response to an emergency. The term 'reasonable' is perfectly acceptable in English law (and an equivalent in many other jurisdictions). It has stood the test of time (since the 19th century) where it has meant what a normal citizen would think as correct*. The guidelines have certainly said what is unreasonable so anybody wishing to see how far they can get in that direction deserve the attention of the police. We are supposed to be working together to not make a bad situation worse, so those that think it doesn't include them can expect trouble in the interests of the majority who are being reasonable.​

Oh, and by the way, drive is not 'for exercise'.

* The term 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' is an expression that describes an ordinary person, i.e. not an expert and not a person with a vested interest in a case. It was coined in the 19th century and first used ion court in 1933. There are plenty of unequivocal references found by Google, so the simplest to introduce it is Wikipedia, see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus
This is still a fundamental aspect of UK legislation despite the quaint and gender-specific words used.

 

[yorksrob]

Why? Just stay local. If you do, it works just fine.

Years ago you pretty much had to anyway.

I'm happy to stay local for a few weeks. Maybe a few months. But longer than that, I, and I'm sure other people will need to go places.

 

[yorksrob]

Why is it such an issue? Surely the four reasons cover most reasons why anyone *needs* to get anywhere?

The exception is course what happens as regards returning less essential workers to work, but that's an issue all of its own.

Public transport isn't going to be completely freely available for some time to come.

You raised the potential of rationing, but you said for something that would hopefully be for "a matter of a few weeks".

I'm taliking about if it's not "a matter of a few weeks".

Why are you backtracking now ?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The guidelines speak in terms of 'reasonable' distances. The law can't and shouldn't waste time defining every parameter of every restriction it invokes, - especially when changes are made in response to an emergency. The term 'reasonable' is perfectly acceptable in UK law.

So once again, these are guidelines, not the law

The policeman should have exercised "reasonable juristriction" and sent my cousin home with a telling off/warning rather than issue a fine

 

[bramling]

You raised the potential of rationing, but you said for something that would hopefully be for "a matter of a few weeks".

I'm taliking about if it's not "a matter of a few weeks".

Why are you backtracking now ?

I was attempting to imply that rationing could be a solution to one set of problems. But I can also see it introducing a whole set of new ones, such that I think it would create more problems than it solves.

How do you enforce it, for starters? Despite the horror stories we read here, police are thin on the ground. Secondly checking someone’s credentials would likely require close contact, which is incompatible with social distancing. The moment you have a situation where *some* people can be out then it only relies on self enforcement, and I just can’t see that holding up.

Out of interest, what journeys do you *need* to make?

 

[yorksrob]

I was attempting to imply that rationing could be a solution to one set of problems. But I can also see it introducing a whole set of new ones, such that I think it would create more problems than it solves.

How do you enforce it, for starters? Despite the horror stories we read here, police are thin on the ground. Secondly checking someone’s credentials would likely require close contact, which is incompatible with social distancing. The moment you have a situation where *some* people can be out then it only relies on self enforcement, and I just can’t see that holding up.

Out of interest, what journeys do you *need* to make?

We all have friends and family members that we will wish to visit after lockdown, even if it involves sitting three meters away from eachother in the garden.

You forget that the railway has had its own rationing system for twenty years. Just adapt the Advance purchase system. Get the people who would have been staffing the ticket offices to administer it.

 

[111-111-1]

So once again, these are guidelines, not the law

The policeman should have exercised "reasonable juristriction" and sent my cousin home with a telling off/warning rather than issue a fine

I do feel for your cousin, unfortunately 40 miles is a long way to go for a breath of fresh air or exercise and would not have helped his case. As we know disabilities are not always obvious which may have changed the outcome.

It is a judgement call on the part of the policeman which went against your cousin, I take it there is no appeal process.

 

[bramling]

We all have friends and family members that we will wish to visit after lockdown, even if it involves sitting three meters away from eachother in the garden.

You forget that the railway has had its own rationing system for twenty years. Just adapt the Advance purchase system. Get the people who would have been staffing the ticket offices to administer it.

So it’s *wish* to see rather than *need* to. In the cold light of the current situation I just can’t see this as being high up the priority list, as much as I understand it’s frustrating. (Personally I must say I’m *liking* the fact I can’t see certain family members at the moment - I bet I’m not the only one finding this!).

With the best will in the world, I just don’t see how that can happen - especially on those parts of the railway where capacity is already limited (ie those places who have traditionally relied on 2-car trains!).

The first thing to happen will have to be to get non-essential workers back, that’s already going to put a massive strain on things bearing in mind the number of services we can actually run.

Any attempt at rationing relies on physical ticket inspections, otherwise we’re back to the point of people taking liberties. I just can’t see such a system being workable with the resources available. There’s no way you could ticket every service to make it in effect booked ticket holders only. It just wouldn’t work.

 

[yorksrob]

So it’s *wish* to see rather than *need* to. In the cold light of the current situation I just can’t see this as being high up the priority list, as much as I understand it’s frustrating. (Personally I must say I’m *liking* the fact I can’t see certain family members at the moment - I bet I’m not the only one finding this).


With the best will in the world, I just don’t see how that can happen - especially on those parts of the railway where capacity is already limited (ie those places who have traditionally relied on 2-car trains!).

The first thing to happen will have to be to get non-essential workers back, that’s already going to put a massive strain on things bearing in mind the number of services we can actually run.

Any attempt at rationing relies on physical ticket inspections, otherwise we’re back to the point of people taking liberties. I just can’t see such a system being workable with the resources available. There’s no way you could ticket every service to make it in effect booked ticket golders

When it comes to ticket inspections, how are AP tickets any different to your non-essential workers ?

Either you're checking tickets or not and it won't make any difference for what purpose they're travelling.

Also non-essential workers are already allowed to use the train. The Government guidence is that you can commute to work if you can't work from home. Those who are already working from home are likely to stay that way for the forseeable future, so where are these hoards of additional commuters going to come from ?

 

[6862]

It's interesting and rather concerning to read people's thoughts on controlling post-lockdown travel. I was staying with my parents (approx 200 miles from where I usually live) at the time of the lockdown, and hence I stayed put, and obviously will stay put until the lockdown ends. However a problem could then arise if my place of work reopens and I wish to return, as it seems likely that train travel would be problematic...