What travel is currently allowed by the legislation?

[trainophile]

Sorry if this is obvious, but while I appreciate that getting people to and from work is the main reason for using public transport, I was wondering whether my situation would be covered...

I have a small flat in Southport but have been grounded in my main Hereford home since mid-March, and before that I wasn't in Southport since February. I could really do with a quick trip there just to empty the fridge (when I last left I was expecting to be back in a few days) and check the boiler isn't leaking etc.

I don't drive, and even if I did apparently we are only allowed to visit our holiday homes as a day trip, which would mean seven hours driving in a day - doable but not something I relish. My OH drives so if I can't get back on a train soon we will have to do that, but I wondered if a rail journey for this reason would be allowable - it's not strictly a leisure trip as it would be just there and back for what I consider a fairly necessary reason.

 

[scotrail158713]

It may be acceptable under “necessary upkeep of the home” - or however it’s worded in the guidance.

 

[trainophile]

Thank you, I will look into that.

 

[221129]

Sorry if this is obvious, but while I appreciate that getting people to and from work is the main reason for using public transport, I was wondering whether my situation would be covered...

I have a small flat in Southport but have been grounded in my main Hereford home since mid-March, and before that I wasn't in Southport since February. I could really do with a quick trip there just to empty the fridge (when I last left I was expecting to be back in a few days) and check the boiler isn't leaking etc.

I don't drive, and even if I did apparently we are only allowed to visit our holiday homes as a day trip, which would mean seven hours driving in a day - doable but not something I relish. My OH drives so if I can't get back on a train soon we will have to do that, but I wondered if a rail journey for this reason would be allowable - it's not strictly a leisure trip as it would be just there and back for what I consider a fairly necessary reason.

If you can do it by car then you should be doing it by car.

 

[pdeaves]

If you can do it by car then you should be doing it by car.

Serious question: Does that apply if you have to coerce someone else into doing all the driving? Someone who could stay at home.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

Personally I can't imagine it being any more stressful than dodging people in the supermarket.

Eveyone will be different of course.

But, I think in a supermarket, you generally have a chance to dodge people, stand back, withdraw, and if necessary walk out. But you could feel more trapped on a train, if people are clustering round doors to get on or off, or if (at any station stop, suddenly) someone comes and sits too close to you (for your liking, even if not theirs). It may be not so easy to get up and move somewhere else, there may be nowhere to go, and you could be hours between stops before a chance to get off.

This is maybe a bit hypothetical. Others may have travelled recently and tell us their experience (there is another thread on that topic, but so far, not much of a response!)

 

[221129]

Serious question: Does that apply if you have to coerce someone else into doing all the driving? Someone who could stay at home.

The message being put out is quite clear, only use public transport if you have no other alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

Eveyone will be different of course.

But, I think in a supermarket, you generally have a chance to dodge people, stand back, withdraw, and if necessary walk out. But you could feel more trapped on a train, if people are clustering round doors to get on or off, or if (at any station stop, suddenly) someone comes and sits too close to you (for your liking, even if not theirs). It may be not so easy to get up and move somewhere else, there may be nowhere to go, and you could be hours between stops before a chance to get off.

This is maybe a bit hypothetical. Others may have travelled recently and tell us their experience (there is another thread on that topic, but so far, not much of a response!)

This might be more of an issue for an inexperienced traveller. Less so for someone who would have an idea of when trains were likely to be busier anyway.

 

[Ianno87]

As well as the issue of legality, there is a question of whether travelling by train would be safe - while you may not relish a long car journey, I wonder if a long train journey (or series of journey legss) would be abnormally stressful, in terms of feeling out of control if you end up trapped in a queue or people crowding close to you or someone sitting down to close to you unexpectedly, at every station or interchange point.

I'd argue you are considerably more likely to die in a car accident than a train accident, which is far in excess of the risk presented by Covid on a train.

 

[telstarbox]

These are the original 'essential travel' reasons from a few weeks ago, although these have been expanded slightly (golf courses etc).

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Moderator note: the updated legislation can be found here:

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[CaledonianBlue]

This might be more of an issue for an inexperienced traveller. Less so for someone who would have an idea of when trains were likely to be busier anyway.

Well I don't mean to be argumentative, but irrespective of how experienced you are, you can't help if other people start crowding near you or, as I say, suddently pop up. You may know that at station X there may be a likely influx of people, but there's nothing you could do about it (except vacate your seat at every station and see who settles where, then choose the least worst seat or place to stand?)

I suspect it's more likely to do with whether people feel are more uncomfortable or not, around other people...

 

[CaledonianBlue]

I'd argue you are considerably more likely to die in a car accident than a train accident, which is far in excess of the risk presented by Covid on a train.

I think there are two issues here, which could no doubt be settled by stats, though I don't have time to go into them now.

One is the relative risk of dying. The other is the relative risk of spreading infection.

I may be more likely to die in a car accident than from Covid caught from a train; but I am more likely to pick up/spread Covid if on a train, and even if I don't die, someone else might.

 

[yorksrob]

Well I don't mean to be argumentative, but irrespective of how experienced you are, you can't help if other people start crowding near you or, as I say, suddently pop up. You may know that at station X there may be a likely influx of people, but there's nothing yo could do about it, except vacate your seat and see who settles where? I suspect it's more likely to do with whether people feel are more uncomfortable or not, around other people...

There's definitely an element of truth in that. Personally I've never liked crowds, so I've developed strategies to avoid trains which I could expect to be crowded (avoiding TPE for most of the last ten years is an example).

Of course, I have been caught out by sudden influxes - however I suspect that will be less likely with no pubs, no big football matches, no race meetings, no groups heading to the airport for a week on Toremelinos, half the population afraid to leave the house etc etc.

Whilst I would be careful not to touch surfaces, wear my mask etc, I would feel comparatively relaxed about the process of train travel itself.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I assume that @telstarbox has pointed us to the right regulations, and there is an updated version at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6, which ties in with what they seem to be saying on the radio and television, so I think is up to date. So I will assume that Regulation 6 is the relevant law, and all the law that we need to look at.

So by the letter of the above legislation, you're only allowed to leave home for a number of specified reasons. Maintaining another property is not one of those specified reasons. If you rent the Southport flat out from time to time, you could, I suppose, argue that regulation 6(2)(l)(v) applied but speaking as someone who is not a lawyer but whose day job does involve interpreting the law, this feels very much like applying the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

So by the letter of the law, you shouldn't make the trip. And given that Hereford - Southport passes through quite a lot of different police areas you might want to think about how those different police forces (and the different parts of the railway) might choose to interpret the law.

But the popular explanation is that you should only carry out 'essential' travel. So let's ignore the law, and think what that this might mean for you, and any authority figure that you might come across. You have told us that you want to go to Southport because

I wasn't in Southport since February. I could really do with a quick trip there just to empty the fridge (when I last left I was expecting to be back in a few days) and check the boiler isn't leaking etc.

I would suggest that emptying the fridge isn't essential. Everything will have spoiled by now, and won't get much nastier if it's left for some more weeks. I guess that you have already committed yourself to having to deeply clean the fridge, and you'll have to do that whether you go now or later.

As to the boiler, this is where you have better information than the rest of us. Is it prone to leaking? When did it last leak? And the same for the rest of the kit that you want to check. If there is a risk of damaging failure, and there is no one is Southport who can pop in for you, then to my mind this might count as 'essential'. But as you have pointed out, Southport is an awfully long way for a day trip from Hereford.

You might also want to consider Sefton Council's advice as reported by the Southport Champion at https://www.champnews.com/story.asp?id=GN4_ART_1673523

DO NOT flock to beaches this weekend, is the message from council chiefs.

Sefton Council’s Cabinet Member for Health and Wellbeing Cllr Ian Moncur said: “I can fully understand that with the government easing the guidelines on when and where people can take daily exercise people want to be out and about.

“However, I would strongly urge people across our Borough and the North West to put their safety and the safety of others first and not head to our beaches where they could put each other, our local communities and Council staff at risk.”

Echoing yesterday’s call by local authorities across Merseyside for members of the public to remain vigilant Cllr Moncur continued: “With the data showing that Merseyside region which has a significantly higher death rate than England and the rest of the North West, it is important that people continue to stay home as much as possible and maintain the effort to reduce transmission of this still dangerous virus.

“I know our beaches are tempting but they are not able to cope with high level of visitors at the moment.

“The beach car parks at Ainsdale and Southport will not be open and generally parking will be very limited. Public toilets will remain closed to ensure social distancing and the safety of cleaning staff and bins are not in use so people would need to take their litter home with them. Additionally, there will be no Life Guard patrols taking place.

“I hope people will put their own and others’ safety first and visiting their own local parks and green spaces rather than travelling longer distances to potentially crowded locations.”

On balance, unless you are aware of an imminent risk to your Southport property that no-one else can deal with for you, I would suggest that your journey - whether by road or rail - is not essential. Please stay home, and hopefully you can be back in Southport sooner rather than later.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and comments, I do appreciate them. The boiler is a concern as once I went up between Christmas and New Year to find it had flooded the kitchen worktop beneath it, and when I could eventually get it looked at it had to be replaced. That was a few years ago and touch wood the new one has been okay, although it is overdue for an annual service. The fridge isn't so much an issue, except for the couple of yoghurts I left in there that were dated the end of March, and some wrapped cheese which can easily be binned. Of course if the freezer part has gone wrong there will be a bigger mess! Sometimes the electricity master switch in the communal hall has been turned off by other residents, so that's a worry too.

As regards Sefton's advice, I would have no intention of wandering around, other than from the station to the flat (about a mile on quiet residential roads), and if we drove we would put the car in our allocated parking space and leave it there until we were setting off back. I/we would take our own food requirements so no need for shopping.

No we don't ever rent it out so can't claim a business purpose. Suppose I will just have to be patient. It would help if we had the slightest idea of when we will finally be allowed to resume non-essential travel. I appreciate no-one can possibly answer that!

 

[yorkie]

Sorry if this is obvious, but while I appreciate that getting people to and from work is the main reason for using public transport, I was wondering whether my situation would be covered...

I have a small flat in Southport but have been grounded in my main Hereford home since mid-March, and before that I wasn't in Southport since February. I could really do with a quick trip there just to empty the fridge (when I last left I was expecting to be back in a few days) and check the boiler isn't leaking etc.

I don't drive, and even if I did apparently we are only allowed to visit our holiday homes as a day trip, which would mean seven hours driving in a day - doable but not something I relish. My OH drives so if I can't get back on a train soon we will have to do that, but I wondered if a rail journey for this reason would be allowable - it's not strictly a leisure trip as it would be just there and back for what I consider a fairly necessary reason.

It is quite simple: it is travel for any of the reasons allowed by the legislation which you cannot do by driving.

 

[xc170]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread already...

The question, that as enthusiasts, we all want to ask, when do we feel it will be acceptable to undertake a leisure trip by train again?

I ask as someone that doesn't drive so has been deprived of any trip to the beach of the countryside that many others have done since the lockdown was eased earlier this month, I'm planning a trip up to Matlock towards the end of June as I feed if we're not back to something resembling normality by then, there will be no point in returning to normality as we won't have an economy left but that's for another thead.

Thoughts?

 

[Mag_seven]

There is no law against leisure travel by train at the moment but the message from the TOCs and government is "we would rather that you didn't".

 

[sjpowermac]

At my local station there are posters at each entrance with the following wording:

“Attention! Is your journey essential? If you are not a ‘Key Worker’ please leave the station area now.”

There is a line underneath that says:

“When exercising avoid places where the public congregate.”

The message from the TOCs/Network Rail seems pretty clear. I think it’s possibly a case of law and guidance being a bit different.

 

[greyman42]

The message from the TOCs/Network Rail seems pretty clear. I think it’s possibly a case of law and guidance being a bit different.

I think you are right. I spoke to a BTP officer at York station and he told me leisure travel was allowed.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The message from the TOCs/Network Rail seems pretty clear. I think it’s possibly a case of law and guidance being a bit different.

That's it in a nutshell. Without wishing to upset certain posters, it's perfectly legal to use trains for leisure travel at the moment, but the TOCs and government would rather you didn't.

So long as people are sensible and avoid peak time and only travel relatively locally, I see no reason why you can't use the train for leisure right now.

 

[greyman42]

Travel is travel, whether it be local or longer distance?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Travel is travel, whether it be local or longer distance?

True, but it would be wise to use your judgement so you don't come into contact with too many people. In my opinion, traveling 20 miles to have a walk out in the country would be reasonable but hopping on a Cross Country train from Aberdeen to Penzance might be taking the proverbial! That said of course, it would still be legal to do that journey.

 

[xc170]

My main concern is the BTP, how are they interpreting the guidelines?

Are they taking a common sense approach or are they on a power trip?

 

[route101]

Think its different in Scotland. Hopefully at somepoint , we can , i dont have a car. Might be a case your allowed to make no essential if you feel safe to do so.

 

[PupCuff]

At my local station there are posters at each entrance with the following wording:

“Attention! Is your journey essential? If you are not a ‘Key Worker’ please leave the station area now.”

Interesting. How does someone who isn't a key worker but can't work from home get to work then? It's been quite clear in government guidance since the very beginning that you're allowed to travel into work if you can't work from home.

I suppose, one could simply use the argument that they are leaving the station area - by train.

 

[route101]

My main concern is the BTP, how are they interpreting the guidelines?

Are they taking a common sense approach or are they on a power trip?

Are they still questioning people at main railway stations?

 

[stevetay3]

If it is a point in law that leisure travel is permitted, why then are the TOCs making there own rules on this matter. I will soon need to get out for an essential trip for the sake of my health.

 

[sjpowermac]

Just to add, during the lockdown I’ve used the train a few times to get to work but not for leisure travel.

I’m personally happy to wait until the TOCs feel comfortable with more people travelling. I think the situation at the moment is one of easing things gradually and seeing how they go. I’m not making a call on safety, or saying others should do the same, but this is my personal choice, mainly out of respect for the railway staff.

 

[sjpowermac]

Interesting. How does someone who isn't a key worker but can't work from home get to work then? It's been quite clear in government guidance since the very beginning that you're allowed to travel into work if you can't work from home.

I suppose, one could simply use the argument that they are leaving the station area - by train.

Not my wording, not my poster. I’ve merely reported what I’ve seen at my local (mainline) station.

I agree though, the wording does seem a bit strong. The reality though when I’ve used the train for work has been a cheery ‘good morning’ from the station staff and no questions from BTP.

I have to say though, it was desperately sad to see a station so deserted.